Antagonist view :: Patek is in worse position compared to AP

[Partekular]

Originally Posted by pam66

i couldn't agree more. except of a few rare handcraft models below 300K euros there is nothing special in the PP collection under 5370P level. there are some nice models but nothing that other brands like VC, ALS and AP cannot do.
and worse, the design flaws have accumulated in the recent years, where TS has produced some really questionable models.

Well, it is a matter of taste. I prefer the 5811 to any comparable engineered looking RO.especially its weight although that piece is recognisable as a PP so I wear it with caution.

I think the 5320G in cream is one of the best PC PP’s by miles. Deceptively simple, not show boating flexer and can be worn anywhere without drawing attention.

Agreed the secondary market gives it a kicking but hey, it’s a watch not a financial investment. I don’t sell my watches so why would I care?

Out of interest which over £300k watches do you own?

[dauster]

Originally Posted by messikens

Ok so hear my theory out why PP is in a worse market position vs AP at the moment (and notwithstanding the legacy chops of being THE brand):

1. While PP/TS pretended that it didn't want to become the nautilus company, effectively it had been that way for 6+ years at this point, where most purchases were propping up the desire to get one or more Naut/Aqua allocations eventually while taking a hit

2. Most true halo pieces (chime, handpaint, grand comp) are so expensive and so far out from a customer perspective that their relevance is diminished

3. The large in between in the catalogue is both WAY more expensive for MSRP and WAY discounted vs AP in the secondary market

4. Therefore TS really only had the option of creating a fake proxy halo watch (that is $10k more expensive than the Naut - mainly to get people getting used to the inflated MSRPs for all their other watches) while further reducing supply of the true Halo Naut watch... Both in order to ensure people buy their "take a terrible hit immediately" in-between catalogue pieces

While AP I would venture has by and large more "desirable" regular models and more palatable prices and the MSRP hit is not as pronounced as PP for most of them


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I do agree with point 2. That's my problem with all three holy trinity brands. They all have a few great watches I can actualy get and afford and then it stops. So there is nothing to aspire to. Frankly I struggle to justify my 5205 purchase which was aorund $60k. That's a lot of money but for all three brands that's basically entry to very low mid tier and the really cool pieces are in the hundreds of thousands or even millions.

I don't think patek is in a worse position than AP at all - I think both brands are doing great and yes IG posting culture made the sports watches super desirable and yes despite TS claims THEY clearly are focused on the nautilus to a certain degree. I don't even know why this is so bad to admit. It's a legandary watch why not be proud of it instead of saying the opposite but releasing green dial, tiffany and then cubitus and of course 5811?

[Fla Gert]

Originally Posted by Partekular

Well, it is a matter of taste. I prefer the 5811 to any comparable engineered looking RO.especially its weight although that piece is recognisable as a PP so I wear it with caution.

I think the 5320G in cream is one of the best PC PP’s by miles. Deceptively simple, not show boating flexer and can be worn anywhere without drawing attention.

Agreed the secondary market gives it a kicking but hey, it’s a watch not a financial investment. I don’t sell my watches so why would I care?

Out of interest which over £300k watches do you own?

5320 best know to be the first grand complication to have a stamped case. Not a good record to break. And this is exactly the issue; The new Patek under TS thinks industrial and cuts costs. At the same time, they do multiple price increases/year. Its not just about making the best product anymore. The movement is also outdated and finishing is not up to par for the 6 figure retail price. And thats why the market thinks its at best worth 60c on the dollar.

[kaiserphoenix]

Originally Posted by Fla Gert

5320 best know to be the first grand complication to have a stamped case. Not a good record to break. And this is exactly the issue; The new Patek under TS thinks industrial and cuts costs. At the same time, they do multiple price increases/year. Its not just about making the best product anymore. The movement is also outdated and finishing is not up to par for the 6 figure retail price. And thats why the market thinks its at best worth 60c on the dollar.

I take some of your points but I think we cannot bring "movements" into the argument as AP has objectively far worse and less innovative movements in their currently line up...

[Gandor]

Originally Posted by kaiserphoenix

I take some of your points but I think we cannot bring "movements" into the argument as AP has objectively far worse and less innovative movements in their currently line up...

AP movements are more robust and modern across the entire lineup than Patek. The entire Patek lineup doesn’t have simple quality of life things like hacking, decent power reserve, rotors that don’t sound like a p51 mustang etc.. And at the really high end the code universelle I find more impressive than anything in the Patek catalog. You could argue the average finishing is better on Patek movements but even then sub 100k Patek skimps out on finishing.

[Rollieo]

Originally Posted by Gandor

AP movements are more robust and modern across the entire lineup than Patek.

You’re the first person that has ever said this. Robustness is hard to qualify, but anecdotally I’ve talked to numerous collectors with experience with both AP and Patek, and it’s not even a comparison when it comes to reliability (with Patek winning hands down).

Also a ton of AP movements are not even from AP. I’ve really never heard anyone compare movements between the two brands.

This is just a weird comment. I’d be curious where the perspective comes from

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by Gandor

AP movements are more robust and modern across the entire lineup than Patek. The entire Patek lineup doesn’t have simple quality of life things like hacking, decent power reserve, rotors that don’t sound like a p51 mustang etc.. And at the really high end the code universelle I find more impressive than anything in the Patek catalog. You could argue the average finishing is better on Patek movements but even then sub 100k Patek skimps out on finishing.

That's misinformation. The new generation Patek movements have hacking seconds.

[kaiserphoenix]

Originally Posted by Gandor

AP movements are more robust and modern across the entire lineup than Patek. The entire Patek lineup doesn’t have simple quality of life things like hacking, decent power reserve, rotors that don’t sound like a p51 mustang etc.. And at the really high end the code universelle I find more impressive than anything in the Patek catalog. You could argue the average finishing is better on Patek movements but even then sub 100k Patek skimps out on finishing.

Im sorry thats just simply not true. Patek has a superior chronograph movement, both automatic AND a manual wound one, AP has just 1 which is very thick and comes with a multitude of problems (just search this forum!). The new 330 derivative does have hacking seconds and is MUCH thinner, more elegant and just more reliable and more accurate, with a Patek seal guaranteeing it. Patek has annual calendars, 3 different perpetuals, all beautiful, whereas AP has that fragile and VERY dated QP movement that is frankly just old and tired. Please do your homework please.

[kaiserphoenix]

Originally Posted by Rollieo

You’re the first person that has ever said this. Robustness is hard to qualify, but anecdotally I’ve talked to numerous collectors with experience with both AP and Patek, and it’s not even a comparison when it comes to reliability (with Patek winning hands down).

Also a ton of AP movements are not even from AP. I’ve really never heard anyone compare movements between the two brands.

This is just a weird comment. I’d be curious where the perspective comes from

100%, maybe he is a fan boy and just over-reacted, who knows. I will give him the benefit of the doubt that hes probably new to the hobby.

[Gandor]

Ok let's talk about it.

I'm not arguing Patek has LESS calibers. I'm just saying they're all fairly unimpressive. To add on to that the Patek seal is the biggest scam Patek has ever done. There's a reason why they were able to double production when going from the geneva seal to the "famed patek seal." The new 330 does have hacking seconds but that was added in what, 2020? And even then like I said the full catalog doesn't feature it!

Yes AP uses vaucher movements for some pieces, really for smaller pieces sub 41mm. The majority of the collection uses the 4401 chronograph movement or the time only 4302. Admittingly the 4401 movement has had issues when being placed in offshores as it was designed for CODES and AP has learned it requires larger springs to be used on the offshores. These issues have mostly gone away. I don't believe Patek actually has a superior chronograph movement to the 4302. The CH28 with the vertical clutch is the closest comparison and I'd find that movement on par with the 4302. I believe there's a bit more hand finishing involved with the CH28 which spans 5.3mm to 8mm and has a 50hr power reserve. The 4401 has a 70 hour power reserve and is 6.8mm so right in the middle of CH28 sizes and only 1.5mm bigger than the base size (which patek only offers the base size on the jeweled monstrosity Aquanaut Luce).

Then you have the midtier AP stuff where AP already shows dominance.

The 16202 uses the 7121 which is a modernization of the legendary 2121 and is straight up better than the 2121 with better power reserve and quick set date at 8.1mm. Compared to the 5811 at 8.2mm yes the AP is thinner and more robust than the 330. Not to mention how flimsy Nautilus bracelets are compared to the Royal Oak bracelet (which is hand finished and takes 20hrs to finish in steel, double in ceramic).

And then you have The QP UltraThin with the 5133 movement is 6.2mm. I think Pateks thinnest QP offered is the 5740? And that's 8.42mm... Even APs standard QP offering based off of a 1970s caliber is 9.5mm. Next year AP is very likely to replace their current standard QP movement with rumors heavily implying a 5 crown setting. Patek is still obsessed with 1800 style pushers.

Then of course you have the high end APRP stuff that really is above and beyond anything Patek is currently able to produce. AP RD1-4 showcase the brands superiority in high end watch making. The Universalle really is watchmaking at the highest level.

[enjoythemusic]

Very interesting discussion.

As Yoda said, "There is another." But this is rare, very very rare.

[nachopc]

Originally Posted by 8bc8

The ambassadors have single handedly brought down the brand for me - absolute joke


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Completely!


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[kaiserphoenix]

Originally Posted by Gandor

Ok let's talk about it.

I'm not arguing Patek has LESS calibers. I'm just saying they're all fairly unimpressive. To add on to that the Patek seal is the biggest scam Patek has ever done. There's a reason why they were able to double production when going from the geneva seal to the "famed patek seal." The new 330 does have hacking seconds but that was added in what, 2020? And even then like I said the full catalog doesn't feature it!

Yes AP uses vaucher movements for some pieces, really for smaller pieces sub 41mm. The majority of the collection uses the 4401 chronograph movement or the time only 4302. Admittingly the 4401 movement has had issues when being placed in offshores as it was designed for CODES and AP has learned it requires larger springs to be used on the offshores. These issues have mostly gone away. I don't believe Patek actually has a superior chronograph movement to the 4302. The CH28 with the vertical clutch is the closest comparison and I'd find that movement on par with the 4302. I believe there's a bit more hand finishing involved with the CH28 which spans 5.3mm to 8mm and has a 50hr power reserve. The 4401 has a 70 hour power reserve and is 6.8mm so right in the middle of CH28 sizes and only 1.5mm bigger than the base size (which patek only offers the base size on the jeweled monstrosity Aquanaut Luce).

Then you have the midtier AP stuff where AP already shows dominance.

The 16202 uses the 7121 which is a modernization of the legendary 2121 and is straight up better than the 2121 with better power reserve and quick set date at 8.1mm. Compared to the 5811 at 8.2mm yes the AP is thinner and more robust than the 330. Not to mention how flimsy Nautilus bracelets are compared to the Royal Oak bracelet (which is hand finished and takes 20hrs to finish in steel, double in ceramic).

And then you have The QP UltraThin with the 5133 movement is 6.2mm. I think Pateks thinnest QP offered is the 5740? And that's 8.42mm... Even APs standard QP offering based off of a 1970s caliber is 9.5mm. Next year AP is very likely to replace their current standard QP movement with rumors heavily implying a 5 crown setting. Patek is still obsessed with 1800 style pushers.

Then of course you have the high end APRP stuff that really is above and beyond anything Patek is currently able to produce. AP RD1-4 showcase the brands superiority in high end watch making. The Universalle really is watchmaking at the highest level.

Im sorry, lets just agree to disagree as with all due respect, you are not very familiar with horology in general. To call the Patek seal a "scam", or measuring a movements capabilities with "hacking seconds" as a benchmark is just amateur at best. I deeply respect APRP stuff, but Patek has the grandmaster chime, just as 1 counter. Anyway, all the best on your AP journey my friend.

[dauster]

Originally Posted by Pfang56

Patek and AP collector here...

Objectively you are probably right - very simply, AP recently surpassed Patek in terms of annual turnover. And this was not because of selling more volume - in fact, AP somehow is selling less volume and delivering a higher annual turnover than PP. And, this is despite PP offering a wider and much higher priced range than AP. What happened here?

I do think AP's management has done a much better job with the business, which is part of the reason why they exceeded PP in turnover. Cutting out the middleman, consolidating points of sale, having more direct customer relation management are just good business decisions that probably has increased their margin, elevated their supply and inventory control,
and enabled them to have a way better understanding of customers.

It's not a surprise PP and Rolex are following suit by cutting dealer networks, increasing direct boutiques, and improving direct customer engagements. PP and Rolex is following AP's leadership and strategy here - and I am really thankful for it. It hopefully can elevate the entire customer relationship experience, improve exclusivity, and take away bad actors.

So yes, from a business perspective, AP is in a much better business and market position than PP. In the end, AP recently surpassed PP in turnover, despite not producing as much as PP. Kudos to AP.

As for my subjective feedback - I am definitely not a Cubitus supporter. It was just a bad business and brand decision to discontinue the 5711, and then seemingly replace it with the Cubitus. If Patek kept the 5711, then I would totally understand the decision to add the Cubitus - but the fact that this is positioned as a *replacement* to the 5711 is just a dumb decision. Like if Porsche and the Piech family decided to discontinue the 911 and create a new line with some controversial styling. Or if Hermes and the Dumas family discontinued the Birkin and replaced it with something more modern. It would just be bad decision making!

And, it's a real shame as the Nautilus will have its 50th anniversary in two years!!! Maybe there is a plan to re-launch it?


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??? they did not discontinue the Nautilus but gave it an update just like porsche does with the 911 every couple years. Sure it's precious metal and slightly bigger but it's not like they completely discontinued it.

[Gandor]

Originally Posted by kaiserphoenix

Im sorry, lets just agree to disagree as with all due respect, you are not very familiar with horology in general. To call the Patek seal a "scam", or measuring a movements capabilities with "hacking seconds" as a benchmark is just amateur at best. I deeply respect APRP stuff, but Patek has the grandmaster chime, just as 1 counter. Anyway, all the best on your AP journey my friend.

Saying I'm not familiar with horology because your favorite brand hasn't done anything cool in 20 years is pretty immature. Facts are facts, Patek got rid of the seal to reduce QC on their mainline offerings. There's tons of post showing the finishing differences that patek has at different levels of watches. The Grandmaster chime is also less complicated than the Universalle and it's also an unwearable brick of a watch.

[ts3]

Originally Posted by Gandor

Ok let's talk about it.

I'm not arguing Patek has LESS calibers. I'm just saying they're all fairly unimpressive. To add on to that the Patek seal is the biggest scam Patek has ever done. There's a reason why they were able to double production when going from the geneva seal to the "famed patek seal." The new 330 does have hacking seconds but that was added in what, 2020? And even then like I said the full catalog doesn't feature it!

Yes AP uses vaucher movements for some pieces, really for smaller pieces sub 41mm. The majority of the collection uses the 4401 chronograph movement or the time only 4302. Admittingly the 4401 movement has had issues when being placed in offshores as it was designed for CODES and AP has learned it requires larger springs to be used on the offshores. These issues have mostly gone away. I don't believe Patek actually has a superior chronograph movement to the 4302. The CH28 with the vertical clutch is the closest comparison and I'd find that movement on par with the 4302. I believe there's a bit more hand finishing involved with the CH28 which spans 5.3mm to 8mm and has a 50hr power reserve. The 4401 has a 70 hour power reserve and is 6.8mm so right in the middle of CH28 sizes and only 1.5mm bigger than the base size (which patek only offers the base size on the jeweled monstrosity Aquanaut Luce).

Then you have the midtier AP stuff where AP already shows dominance.

The 16202 uses the 7121 which is a modernization of the legendary 2121 and is straight up better than the 2121 with better power reserve and quick set date at 8.1mm. Compared to the 5811 at 8.2mm yes the AP is thinner and more robust than the 330. Not to mention how flimsy Nautilus bracelets are compared to the Royal Oak bracelet (which is hand finished and takes 20hrs to finish in steel, double in ceramic).

And then you have The QP UltraThin with the 5133 movement is 6.2mm. I think Pateks thinnest QP offered is the 5740? And that's 8.42mm... Even APs standard QP offering based off of a 1970s caliber is 9.5mm. Next year AP is very likely to replace their current standard QP movement with rumors heavily implying a 5 crown setting. Patek is still obsessed with 1800 style pushers.

Then of course you have the high end APRP stuff that really is above and beyond anything Patek is currently able to produce. AP RD1-4 showcase the brands superiority in high end watch making. The Universalle really is watchmaking at the highest level.

I may have missed it but where exactly in the above did you support your earlier claim that AP movements are more robust?

In many years of daily use including for cycling, paddling, swimming etc Patek's bread and butter 315 and 324 movements haven't given me any grief (thankfully, no sticky date for me). Admittedly, I don't have any first hand experience with AP. However, based on what I have been told by 3rd party watch makers (neither working for AP nor Patek) and the horror stories you can read on here and elsewhere I have to doubt that AP's movements are more reliable in real life use.

[kaiserphoenix]

Originally Posted by Gandor

Saying I'm not familiar with horology because your favorite brand hasn't done anything cool in 20 years is pretty immature. Facts are facts, Patek got rid of the seal to reduce QC on their mainline offerings. There's tons of post showing the finishing differences that patek has at different levels of watches. The Grandmaster chime is also less complicated than the Universalle and it's also an unwearable brick of a watch.

Patek is not my favourite brand, but thank you for making assumptions. Again, we can agree to disagree. I don't think you have the necessary knowledge about watchmaking.

[kaiserphoenix]

Originally Posted by ts3

I may have missed it but where exactly in the above did you support your earlier claim that AP movements are more robust?

In many years of daily use including for cycling, paddling, swimming etc Patek's bread and butter 315 and 324 movements haven't given me any grief (thankfully, no sticky date for me). Admittedly, I don't have any first hand experience with AP. However, based on what I have been told by 3rd party watch makers (neither working for AP nor Patek) and the horror stories you can read on here and elsewhere I have to doubt that AP's movements are more reliable in real life use.

Just search for AP problems, you will find pages just on this forum alone. Even Singapore's prominent collector has had major issues with actual AP watch makers coming out and saying the calibers are sub par. (Search for Talking Clocks on Youtube).

I respect AP, they do alot of things right. They do many things in an excellent way and they have nailed the Royal Oak franchise and are milking it superbly and sustainably I suppose. They are one of the greats. But my only point I am making is that "movements" are not their forte. And against Patek, just doesnt hold up at all. Not d*ssing the entire brand. A watch brand is more than just movements.

[srvrf]

Since the original post was about relative market position, this really comes down to sales. According to Morgan Stanley and LuxeConsult (found on Revolutionwatch.com), as of 2021, AP surpassed PP in terms of sales. In 2017, AP was 7th and PP 5th. But from 2021 to 2023, AP has been 4th and PP has been 5th. Of course, both companies are doing very well and had just over 2 billion CHF in sales in 2023. Expenses and profit are not listed, but they both seem well-positioned for the future because these positions have been similar since 2017.

[Pfang56]

Originally Posted by srvrf

Since the original post was about relative market position, this really comes down to sales. According to Morgan Stanley and LuxeConsult (found on Revolutionwatch.com), as of 2021, AP surpassed PP in terms of sales. In 2017, AP was 7th and PP 5th. But from 2021 to 2023, AP has been 4th and PP has been 5th. Of course, both companies are doing very well and had just over 2 billion CHF in sales in 2023. Expenses and profit are not listed, but they both seem well-positioned for the future because these positions have been similar since 2017.

Exactly!

When it comes to market position, it is about their sales relative to each other.

AP surpassed PP a few years ago, so objectively they are in a *better market position* than PP.

On top of that, I would argue that AP is able to *maintain a better market position* simply because they are delivering higher prices per piece, and they have a direct to client interface.

All of the subjective stuff is argumentative - both create beautiful pieces, outstanding watches, fantastic designs, etc.

But AP is a better run business with higher sales and a better market position.


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[kaiserphoenix]

Originally Posted by Pfang56

Exactly!

When it comes to market position, it is about their sales relative to each other.

AP surpassed PP a few years ago, so objectively they are in a *better market position* than PP.

On top of that, I would argue that AP is able to *maintain a better market position* simply because they are delivering higher prices per piece, and they have a direct to client interface.

All of the subjective stuff is argumentative - both create beautiful pieces, outstanding watches, fantastic designs, etc.

But AP is a better run business with higher sales and a better market position.


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Totally agree! Well said.

[Pfang56]

Originally Posted by dauster

??? they did not discontinue the Nautilus but gave it an update just like porsche does with the 911 every couple years. Sure it's precious metal and slightly bigger but it's not like they completely discontinued it.

Discontinued the 5711...

Would argue...

5711 to 5821 is more like...
911 to Panamera...

Not /991/992 etc..

Huge difference.

Both controversial decisions.


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[Pfang56]

Originally Posted by Pfang56

Discontinued the 5711...

Would argue...

5711 to 5821 is more like...
911 to Panamera...

Not /991/992 etc..

Huge difference.

Both controversial decisions.


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And...5711 to 5712 to 5726 to 5740 is more like a standard model to an S to a GTS to a Turbo. There's still space for a GT3 and GT2 and a 4S, and a Hybrid, and a...

Just wish there was an additional complication to the 5711 as opposed to a new case...in the end they made a Panamera instead of a cooler 911...


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[kaiserphoenix]

Originally Posted by Pfang56

And...5711 to 5712 to 5726 to 5740 is more like a standard model to an S to a GTS to a Turbo. There's still space for a GT3 and GT2 and a 4S, and a Hybrid, and a...

Just wish there was an additional complication to the 5711 as opposed to a new case...in the end they made a Panamera instead of a cooler 911...


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Not quite sure I agree with that. The 5811 is a "return to form" by using the "original" 2 piece case of the Nautilus which the 5711 did not utilize. If anything it is returning to the ORIGINS of the 911 if you want to use a Porsche Analogy. Its even more "blue" in the colour of the dial, and now with micro adjust and a 330 cal, its like a 911 but with modern upgrades like surround view parking, 18 updated interface inside etc etc. Probably more like a 991.2 (5711) => 992 (5811). As with Porsche, there will be people who prefer the 5711, and people who prefer the 5811, and ofcourse people who don't like Porsche or Patek which is fine as well.