Antagonist view :: Patek is in worse position compared to AP

[pam66]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I was recently at an event with some serious collectors and everyone was crowding around the owner to look at her watch (pic below), despite the presence of George Daniels, Simplicity, AK-06, RRCC, Roger Smith S2, Voutilainen Vingt-8 and 217QRS, and some LE Journes amongst various others in the same event. If I merely read this thread without knowing anything about Patek I would have thought Patek only has Nautilus in its catalog. I don't know what's the market price of this Patek but I don't think the owner cares whether it is "under retail" or not. I would love to own this too even if it is "way under retail" just like the owner.

yes, true. i should have added that PP does beautiful watches in the very very high end (starting north of 500K USD) and many of those pieces trade over retail.

[kaiserphoenix]

Im sorry OP, and this is not a personal attack, as everyone is entitlted to have and share their opinions here so I will as well. But this is total b*llocks mate.

AP is like a really really popular hamburger shop. They have basically stuck with the same burger recipe that has worked for decades and sure, added a couple of tweaks, maybe having some Pork, Chicken burgers to their Beef ones but basically a really really good Burger joint. They tried to add Fish and Chips but basically flopped in many ways BUT since everyone realized if they eat the Fish and Chips occasionally, they can get the burger quicker or have a seat at the restaurant, it sells as well.

Patek is like a Michellin start restaurant that has a variety of stuff on the menu. Some are rarely ordered, some are signature dishes. There is something to cater for alot of people (note wealthier people). Its not a restaurant for the people, and its not supposed to be.

Now putting is back to watches, AP does the Royal Oak really well. But even the RO, they rarely ever innovate in their movements for example. For how many decades are they gonna churn out that tired and old perpetual module? Patek has 3 different perpetuals in their line up from the 240 based derivates to the triple window, to the manual wound.perpetual chronograph. AP uses the same old thin and fragile QP movement in every single one, INCLUDING their Code 11. What about their 3 hand and Chrono movmeents? They still cant get an inhouse chronograph movement to be thin in 2024, whereas Patek has Chronographs, Annual Calendar Chronographs, Perpetual Chronographs, Perpetual SPLIT chronogrpahs list goes on.

AP is not really a WATCH MAKER in that respect. They manufacture EXCELLENT cases and bracelets and they are beautiful. But most of their movements are basic and average (NOTE I DO NOT INCLUDE THE RENAUD e PAPI stuff here) or stuff in the Concept because they are concepts and lets be honest, most of them are not very wearable in size or availability.

Im not D*ssing AP. They are great at what they do. But Patek are in a different league mate.

[Gelateria]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

If "nobody wants" how did they sell out their 70,000 watches every year? I love most of their line up.

I find my 2 Patek AD friendly, professional and helpful, and 1 of them I don't buy much from. I visited the Geneva Salon last Sep and Roberto has been exemplary in his service even though I didn't buy anything from them. I also see other SA at the same Salon and they remind me of private banking RM in the way they treat their customers. I even received some small gifts from Roberto. I left happy and impressed. This is nowhere near antagonistic or arrogant to me.

To be fair the one thing ap has over patek is the business model. You have a huge history of course you get nicely treated, but there are so many horror story out there even with current clients.
With ap bt it's still about the same game, but at least it's standardised, and the service is consistent unlike pp ADs.
And of course I doubt anyone will speak like that asshole Thierry.

The rest of the thread about ap bring better than patek esp the watch lineup? That's the craziest bullshit I've heard for a while

[Gelateria]

Originally Posted by kaiserphoenix

Im sorry OP, and this is not a personal attack, as everyone is entitlted to have and share their opinions here so I will as well. But this is total b*llocks mate.

AP is like a really really popular hamburger shop. They have basically stuck with the same burger recipe that has worked for decades and sure, added a couple of tweaks, maybe having some Pork, Chicken burgers to their Beef ones but basically a really really good Burger joint. They tried to add Fish and Chips but basically flopped in many ways BUT since everyone realized if they eat the Fish and Chips occasionally, they can get the burger quicker or have a seat at the restaurant, it sells as well.

Patek is like a Michellin start restaurant that has a variety of stuff on the menu. Some are rarely ordered, some are signature dishes. There is something to cater for alot of people (note wealthier people). Its not a restaurant for the people, and its not supposed to be.

Now putting is back to watches, AP does the Royal Oak really well. But even the RO, they rarely ever innovate in their movements for example. For how many decades are they gonna churn out that tired and old perpetual module? Patek has 3 different perpetuals in their line up from the 240 based derivates to the triple window, to the manual wound.perpetual chronograph. AP uses the same old thin and fragile QP movement in every single one, INCLUDING their Code 11. What about their 3 hand and Chrono movmeents? They still cant get an inhouse chronograph movement to be thin in 2024, whereas Patek has Chronographs, Annual Calendar Chronographs, Perpetual Chronographs, Perpetual SPLIT chronogrpahs list goes on.

AP is not really a WATCH MAKER in that respect. They manufacture EXCELLENT cases and bracelets and they are beautiful. But most of their movements are basic and average (NOTE I DO NOT INCLUDE THE RENAUD e PAPI stuff here) or stuff in the Concept because they are concepts and lets be honest, most of them are not very wearable in size or availability.

Im not D*ssing AP. They are great at what they do. But Patek are in a different league mate.

AP is basically a fashion watch brand, a very great one at that. Like you said they have absolutely no watchmaking pedigree comparing to pp and vc.
People criticise pp and vc for some of their calibres because they are supposed to be technically well versed so we cared about the watchmaking part of pp vc, have you heard anyone commenting on ap's calibre? Not a single person cared (well except a good amount of people having to send their ap to repair when they go wrong esp chrono). The ro can have a solid case back for all I care, we buy ro for the design and bracelet, not the watch making part of it lol

Pp vc are not without their fault but putting ap lineup above them two is such an insult that they don't deserve...

[ChetBaker]

Originally Posted by kaiserphoenix

Im sorry OP, and this is not a personal attack, as everyone is entitlted to have and share their opinions here so I will as well. But this is total b*llocks mate.

AP is like a really really popular hamburger shop. They have basically stuck with the same burger recipe that has worked for decades and sure, added a couple of tweaks, maybe having some Pork, Chicken burgers to their Beef ones but basically a really really good Burger joint. They tried to add Fish and Chips but basically flopped in many ways BUT since everyone realized if they eat the Fish and Chips occasionally, they can get the burger quicker or have a seat at the restaurant, it sells as well.

Patek is like a Michellin start restaurant that has a variety of stuff on the menu. Some are rarely ordered, some are signature dishes. There is something to cater for alot of people (note wealthier people). Its not a restaurant for the people, and its not supposed to be.

Now putting is back to watches, AP does the Royal Oak really well. But even the RO, they rarely ever innovate in their movements for example. For how many decades are they gonna churn out that tired and old perpetual module? Patek has 3 different perpetuals in their line up from the 240 based derivates to the triple window, to the manual wound.perpetual chronograph. AP uses the same old thin and fragile QP movement in every single one, INCLUDING their Code 11. What about their 3 hand and Chrono movmeents? They still cant get an inhouse chronograph movement to be thin in 2024, whereas Patek has Chronographs, Annual Calendar Chronographs, Perpetual Chronographs, Perpetual SPLIT chronogrpahs list goes on.

AP is not really a WATCH MAKER in that respect. They manufacture EXCELLENT cases and bracelets and they are beautiful. But most of their movements are basic and average (NOTE I DO NOT INCLUDE THE RENAUD e PAPI stuff here) or stuff in the Concept because they are concepts and lets be honest, most of them are not very wearable in size or availability.

Im not D*ssing AP. They are great at what they do. But Patek are in a different league mate.

This. The fact that this thread quickly devolved into value retention, stepping stones towards a steel sports watch and instagram and celebrities tells you everything you need to know about present day AP. I’d love a 15202 at some point but other than that give me Patek and VC any day of the week.

Edit: there was a recent poll here asking if one of PP, VC or AP were to be removed from the Holy Trinity, which should it be. AP got the most votes by some distance.

[bob101]

Both great brands that made interesting and innovative vintage pieces. VC too. Sadly a bit of innovation and design elegance has been lost from all 3 I would say.
Stern brothers creations hand made dials for both AP and PP back in the day. Stern made for AP even up until 2012 or so with the tapisserie waffle dial Royal Oak.

[Pfang56]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I was recently at an event with some serious collectors and everyone was crowding around the owner to look at her watch (pic below), despite the presence of George Daniels, Simplicity, AK-06, RRCC, Roger Smith S2, Voutilainen Vingt-8 and 217QRS, and some LE Journes amongst various others in the same event. If I merely read this thread without knowing anything about Patek I would have thought Patek only has Nautilus in its catalog. I don't know what's the market price of this Patek but I don't think the owner cares whether it is "under retail" or not. I would love to own this too even if it is "way under retail" just like the owner.

Hi there - this enamel dialed minute repeater is wonderful and incredibly unique. There are incredibly unique PP pieces to be selected across the PP portfolio - and I imagine getting the approval by PP was a really unique experience. It's probably ideal for the individual collector and will be an extraordinary heirloom piece!

That being said - if this is about "market position" then my question is simply - if you ask the entire market, is this one example really more desirable than a RRCC, a Simplicity, any George Daniels, or any piece by an independent?

This is where PP lost its edge and desirability. Many people (including myself) would prefer to add another independent brand than buy another high end PP. PP has become less competitive and attractive vs the independents because of its lack of consistency and strength at the high end. I would argue lack of focus happens with PP's large catalogue and that unfortunately has made independents even more attractive than PP.

On the flip side, PP is more aware they have one of the most desirable stainless steel sports watches in the entire industry. Yet, they just decided over the last few years to reduce investment and expand the line. Why not try to add a higher end complication beyond the PC to the Nautilus? And, why not make a Titanium model (TS has openly shared he would never do it)? I mean they certainly have the capabilities and money to make it happen!

This is where I think PP makes a bad business decision, and AP is making much smarter business decisions, to preserve AND grow their market position. Yes it turns some people off but it definitely meets the requests and demands of their customers. It grows their business. Common business sense.

Working in family run companies in the past, I can understand sometimes that business logic does not always win with these strategic choices. It's often about reputation and coincidentally - handing down a legacy for future generations - but as a PP collector myself - I think this decision with the Cubitus / Nautilus will definitely be written up in business cases in the future!


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