Has recut/laser welded vintage Rolex now entered the realm of collector acceptance?

[fizz]

I see it every day, and now, with almost increasing frequency. Almost 90% (not scientifically calculated) vintage Rolex sports models, specifically the classics such as 1675 and 5513 have some sort of case correction done. In most cases, this is referred to as "recently polished" (see the barrage of listings at Tropicalwatches), but it's clear that the chamfers have been added as part of some cosmetic witchcraft. About 10 years ago, when I first tip toed into this world, any kind of case polishing was a death knell (or immediately called for more scrutiny by forum members and collectors of the offered watch or advice to seek better alternatives) but I think the quality of the craftsmanship improving many fold has led to their acceptance. I would even go as far as saying, that they seem to be desirable. I know I like them and when I was recently looking to acquire a 1675 earlier this year, amongst other things, the visual appeal of the case held considerable consideration. I found myself being drawn to these "recently polished" examples because they really did add to the overall look of the watch.

Having spoken to a few of the craftsman that offer such a service, it seems they can even control the "level" of this recutting/laser welding with some offering a look that makes the reformed case look thick and even but still vintage with some level of artificial wear. Again, I don't bring this up as criticism but to admit that I think this is a step in the right direction - not in comparing them to truly unpolished/thick examples but as a quality salvage operation for cases that need them and will full declaration provided on the part of the individual who partakes in it.

I raise this thread on the cusp of flirting with the idea of applying the same "fix" to my watch. The dial and insert are fantastic, but I find myself routinely asking myself, wouldn't it look so much better if one of these case maestro's did their magic on it?

Let me know your thoughts.

[swish77]

There are many levels to case refinishing, and it doesn't need to include laser welding.

If a case has already been polished, especially if it's poorly done, I'd have no issue trying to improve the case with an expert polish/refinish.

However, laser welding is something I'd personally avoid. It's taking the watch too far away from its originality, kind of like refinishing a dial. I'd rather have an original dial or case with issues than a pristine redone dial or case.

[omar-rye]

Originally Posted by swish77

There are many levels to case refinishing, and it doesn't need to include laser welding.

If a case has already been polished, especially if it's poorly done, I'd have no issue trying to improve the case with an expert polish/refinish.

However, laser welding is something I'd personally avoid. It's taking the watch too far away from its originality, kind of like refinishing a dial. I'd rather have an original dial or case with issues than a pristine redone dial or case.

Makes sense on all points

[Jackie Daytona]

Originally Posted by swish77

There are many levels to case refinishing, and it doesn't need to include laser welding.

If a case has already been polished, especially if it's poorly done, I'd have no issue trying to improve the case with an expert polish/refinish.

However, laser welding is something I'd personally avoid. It's taking the watch too far away from its originality, kind of like refinishing a dial. I'd rather have an original dial or case with issues than a pristine redone dial or case.

I pretty much fee the same.

However I will say there are instances where it’s still justifiable to save some watches. I got a great deal (IMO) on my 16570, but the case was complete s**t. It was very worn, and looked like Ray Charles was tasked to polish it back out which only compounded the problem.

I had the case refinished, laser welded and all, and now it’s great once again. Although I will say from a collector perspective it has lost something, but as a wearer it’s perfect for quite a while again.

[joli160]

OP, I would have that case worked on. A fresh looking case would give me much more pleasure to wear it.

[Robison347]

What’s wrong with the original watch? The marks show life experience. Must your watch always appear new?

[Dan S]

As Aaron mentioned, it's more nuanced than "accepted" or "not accepted." I think most of us would prefer an all-original case with sharp edges, but many people prefer a good refinished case to one that has been previously polished beyond all recognition. Out of several hundred watches I have owned, I can count the watches I have had refinished on one hand, and I do enjoy those watches.

I would be tempted to have your watch refinished because of the rounded edge and cratered lug holes, but it's your watch and you should simply ask yourself if it will give you more pleasure.

[Incroyable12]

You can also laser weld the vintage gold models now without any telltale signs that they've been refinished.

[996marty]

I would be all for turning a badly polished case into something more acceptable and if that means laser welding so be it. For me as long as it’s done well it can only be a good thing.

[0nly5iv3Digits]

When done correctly (laser welded or otherwise re-cut/refinished), I think it’s a non-issue. The problem I have with laser welding is dealers trying to pass pieces off as unpolished NOS.

As far as I’m concerned, if you know what you’re buying (or better yet if it’s your own watch you want to refresh), then I think 100% yes! Go for it! I see it as the equivalent of a “full restoration” on a classic car. Early 911s are known to rust out quite badly under the rocker panels for instance. At some point, new metal needs to be added or your car won’t remain roadworthy. Not exactly apples to apples, but you get the point.

Just remember that you get what you pay for. Don’t go cheap on something like a Rolex laser-weld restoration. Pay for the best and enjoy your watch

[Tools]

Some folks collect rebuilt/refurbished examples and others prefer that their collection is as original as possible.

There are likely more folks now days interested in what looks like new, rather than original and untouched.

As long as there is a market for watches patched up, welded on, refinished and shined to perfection, there will be those who cater to that.

It is just another facet of the hobby that will never be accepted by originalists and will likely drive the price and value of a non-welded/reconstructed example up even higher.

[springer]

Originally Posted by Tools

Some folks collect rebuilt/refurbished examples and others prefer that their collection is as original as possible.

There are likely more folks now days interested in what looks like new, rather than original and untouched.

As long as there is a market for watches patched up, welded on, refinished and shined to perfection, there will be those who cater to that.

It is just another facet of the hobby that will never be accepted by originalists and will likely drive the price and value of a non-welded/reconstructed example up even higher.

There you have it and nicely put by Tools. I have found the market and buyers for many of these refinished vintage models is plentiful and accepted by many collectors in the market - not unlike many other collectables that you might enjoy.

[Noahgraph]

I have been saying this for a year now and I get a lot of heat from it. I see people on forums claiming their unpolished 16600's and 16710's whilst it is obvious the cases have been redone completely. It kinda bothers me to be honest. Even reputable outlets like Amsterdam Vintage Watchers -who always adressed case condition in their listings- no does no longer talk about it and it is clear they have accepted the new standard of redone cases, brushes and chamferings.

So to answer your question in a nutshell: Yes, absolutely.

[fizz]

Thanks for chiming in everyone. Great discussion.

I think I've used many terms interchangeably which has caused some confusion. What I mean to say is that any form of restoration work on the case, if 1) done well and 2) done out of necessity (i.e. to fix the after effects/residue of a previously done botched polishing operation) is now, in this "advanced" era of collecting, seemingly both more prominent (it seems most cases on offer have some cosmetic work done on them) and also more acceptable (clearly, the ones that look sharp, even if redone, are more quickly snapped up).

There is a deeper reason for my bringing this up and that is to discuss 2 additional things:

1 - If a case has been refinished in some way, to a very high standard and with an effect that is nearly identical, in fact, indistinguishable from say the look of a NOS case, how can one REALLY tell (perhaps microscopically, it is possible, but the art form and dexterity behind this is improving). Some might state looking at the overall dial, bezel, bracelet condition to see if they are also in harmony, but even those (especially inserts) can be played around with to make an overall "matching" specimen.

2 - As a thought experiment, let's say someone took their vintage 1675 and 10 years ago restored the caase (using whatever technique) to look pristine and fresh, while keeping it in harmony with the overall "look" of the rest of the watch. Over a decade, through constant use, all these elements would age equally and, in theory, make it look like an unpolished example due to wear over time.

Bottom line is, I find these to be, if tastefully done, which is the case with the big name establishments that perform this service, rather pleasant and as some have suggested, I intend to potentially fix my case as well, because, honestly, the case on mine seems incongruous with the rest of the watch (especially the insert and the patina, which I rather love).

[PVR]

If it helps answer some questions, Jacek at Tropical Watch recuts nearly every watch he sells and he sells a lot. Are they being sold to avid collectors? Probably not, but there is certainly a market for recut restored vintage watches.

[Incroyable12]

Is it actually possible to tell a rewelded watch?

With other collectables such as oil paintings a UV light can easily distinguish repair work but watches?

[espanol]

Originally Posted by Incroyable12

Is it actually possible to tell a rewelded watch?

With other collectables such as oil paintings a UV light can easily distinguish repair work but watches?

Also wondering the same. If one is adding steel to a case, is the steel that's added noticeably different or distinguishable? If not, and if welded properly, then why would this be cause for concern for the purists?

[omar-rye]

Adding metal to a case and recutting it to exact Rolex specifications, especially for a vintage watch, is an incredibly difficult task to execute without leaving telltale signs. I've noticed, for instance, that the chamfers on recut cases tend to be too pronounced, which is a clear giveaway.

[Toronto Soup King]

If you collect museum-quality watches then avoid refinishing in every aspect, I'd say. But watches to wear, watches dreamt up and designed and built and sold to become part of one's possessions, I think Rolex themselves would say fix 'em up as you like! My old redialled-to-WGS '67 5513 went into LAWW showing every bit of its careless history, but came back to me looking brand new. I'll disclose this if I ever sell the thing but in the meantime it makes the watch a lot more handsome and wearable. The watch is not historically significant, it's just my Sub...the old case scarring held no significance for me.

If Rolex didn't make a bundle of money on selling you a whole new case at service they'd be offering this instead, I think!

[fizz]

Originally Posted by PVR

If it helps answer some questions, Jacek at Tropical Watch recuts nearly every watch he sells and he sells a lot. Are they being sold to avid collectors? Probably not, but there is certainly a market for recut restored vintage watches.

That's where I first started noticing it. To be fair, Jacek is one of the good guys. He has listed watches with full disclosure about their real condition that others before him (he either bought it from them to relist or it was commissioned to him to sell) tried to hide with flowery language. So I find him to be very transparent, true and reputation focused. I do think they are sold to real, bonafide collectors. I haven't bought from because the opportunity never really presented itself, but amongst my circle of "watch friends" only collectors or bonafide vintage know him. He deals with and sells to people like us on this sub forum.

Originally Posted by Incroyable12

Is it actually possible to tell a rewelded watch?

With other collectables such as oil paintings a UV light can easily distinguish repair work but watches?

True, hence some of my initial thoughts and questions....

Originally Posted by Toronto Soup King

If you collect museum-quality watches then avoid refinishing in every aspect, I'd say. But watches to wear, watches dreamt up and designed and built and sold to become part of one's possessions, I think Rolex themselves would say fix 'em up as you like! My old redialled-to-WGS '67 5513 went into LAWW showing every bit of its careless history, but came back to me looking brand new. I'll disclose this if I ever sell the thing but in the meantime it makes the watch a lot more handsome and wearable. The watch is not historically significant, it's just my Sub...the old case scarring held no significance for me.

If Rolex didn't make a bundle of money on selling you a whole new case at service they'd be offering this instead, I think!

Fair point. I don't collect watches to preserve, but to wear. And I agree with everything you've said. If the process of reworking the case makes it aesthetically more pleasing, I am all for it (and what I intend to do). I mean, the thought hit me when I realised, while I love my 1675, 94110 and 16570 in almost equal measure, the latter two I seem to admire more on the wrist because they have (amongst other things and most factors being more or less equal) better, more pronounced, more noticeably attractive cases.

[pk552502]

If I'm looking to purchase another watch for my collection, I find myself only looking at auctions and try to find a watch before it gets to a reseller. I wouldn't be interested in buying a watch that has an obvious recut case.

On the other hand, I do own a watch or two that I bought early in my collecting before I developed a keener eye and they have a softer case. I have considered to have those recut. But to be honest, I think I would prefer a softer case instead of a recut case. I mean they really aren't too bad.

Also, there is risk that it comes back not looking great after being recut

[R.W.T.]

Rolex even does it at the factory as part of service polishing now.
Personally....I wouldn't own a watch that was badly polished...crazy rounded over polished...over 70 years. They look awful. I'd rather buy a brand new watch.

I'm just not a fan. Sure...find yourself a barn find that hardly got worn or no one ever touched...great. But those are 1 in 10,000. The rest have been serviced, polished...and polished WRONG...and everything in between.
The criticism is so hypocritical because...the site run by the biggest proponent of unpolished...seemingly has...almost every dealer posting tons of watches polished to perfection. Hmm....because beat up watches don't present well for retail. They don't.
At what point is it not enjoyable?
When we started back in the early 2000s on the net, there were only a handful of people in the WORLD that could properly polish a case. Rolex wouldn't do most of those models. A nicely detailed case was AS important as the dial.
Then the boogie men...started grumbling about case polishing. The main reason was probably if your watch is freshly polished you have to watch out for scratches and they likely didn't want to have to do that. If it's all beat up...well you can beat the crap out of it and it's "unpolished."

And I tire greatly of "unpolished" really being...polished wrong 50 times and now just scratched up.

Soap Box Down

[TimeLord2]

Thought you all might find this interesting. This is a TRF post from a few years ago about detecting laser welding. Here is the thread: https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=703543
Here is the actual post, which you can translate to English at the top of the page.
https://www.lesrhabilleurs.com/2020/...stock/#optin-m

[fizz]

Originally Posted by TimeLord2

Thought you all might find this interesting. This is a TRF post from a few years ago about detecting laser welding. Here is the thread: https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=703543
Here is the actual post, which you can translate to English at the top of the page.
https://www.lesrhabilleurs.com/2020/...stock/#optin-m

That's a great thread and I remember reading it with interest many years ago (it's 5 years old now).

I'll quote one of the responses from there, that's still relevant and almost prescient from today's (and this discussions) perspective:

"Pretty soon 90% will be laser welded and color matched dial/hands."

This reminded me that Greg from TruePatina recently posted about a way of reluming hands/dials that fades under UV light test almost exactly like the original, therefore, making it indistinguishable from the real thing.

See this IG post if you missed it:

https://www.instagram.com/p/C7w6Vhixsev/?hl=en

I don't know where I stand with these developments, but I think over time, it will be be near impossible to tell what is kosher and what isn't.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by fizz

This reminded me that Greg from TruePatina recently posted about a way of reluming hands/dials that fades under UV light test almost exactly like the original, therefore, making it indistinguishable from the real thing.

Seems to me that this business should be called Fake Patina.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by fizz

That's a great thread and I remember reading it with interest many years ago (it's 5 years old now).

I'll quote one of the responses from there, that's still relevant and almost prescient from today's (and this discussions) perspective:

"Pretty soon 90% will be laser welded and color matched dial/hands."

This reminded me that Greg from TruePatina recently posted about a way of reluming hands/dials that fades under UV light test almost exactly like the original, therefore, making it indistinguishable from the real thing.

I don't know where I stand with these developments, but I think over time, it will be be near impossible to tell what is kosher and what isn't.

No way is the number 90 percent, nor will it ever be. That's absurd.

And as for reluming .... there are other tells besides the way the lume fades to determine original vs. new lume. Sounds like Greg has developed a technique to intentionally try to deceive. Otherwise why make a lume this way?

There will always be a way to know what's original and what's fake or redone, especially for guys who've been staring at vintage watches for many decades. I think it's just getting harder to tell, especially for newbies.

[Tensai]

I think if you are doing it to your own watch, it is a fine way to increase the pleasure of wearing your own watch.

But in the realm of buying and selling watches - the fake patina, the recut cases (passed off as recently polished or unpolished, as the case may be), the relumed and matching of hands, etc. - this absolutely destroys my confidence in what I am buying. No way I am paying top dollar for a vintage watch. But I am admittedly just a regular watch lover, and not a vintage watch expert like those in this forum.

Good luck!

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by Tensai

passed off as recently polished

This seems like nit-picking. If I read "recently polished" it's clear to me. Would you prefer the word "refinished?"

[Incroyable12]

Honestly the vintage watch scene has had its tricks for decades.

Italian watch dealers were or are notorious for this.