I have issues.

[Matthew Aspen]

Dear All,

I first began with a 16710. I then moved to a 116710 - giving the former to my father. I have now decided that I will only collect anniversary Rolex editions since I already have the 116710 on persons. Since I don't print money I will have settle for the poor man's Rolex in the SS - the GV and LV. So here is my dilemma: because the LV will at least have a run until 2010 (possible extinction due to the SUB-C in SS) I must obtain the LV first before the GV, and believe the LV to be my next purchase of the 2 (mainly because of the GV's "toughness to obtainmenship").

I tried on an LV today for the 1,000,000 time. I have been wearing my 116710 for 1.5 years. I am used to soundness of the watch, specifically the thicker case and better clasp than the LV. To me the LV's quality seems a backward jump in comparison to the 116710. I guess what I am really getting at is I cannot justify forking over 6400 US $$ for an LV when the watch I currently go exhibits better "quality".

I am reaching out to those who go both the 116170 or equivalent and an LV or 16610 or 16710. How do you bounce back and forth, switching them up on a daily basis? As I said, I must collect the anniversaries and I think the LV is a great looking watch, but just feel its a step backwards in quality since I already go 116710. I tried on a normal Milgauss and believe it to be similar in quality to the 116710.

To elevate debate: the LV is similar to the 16710 - in clasp, bezel etc. The 116710 is an improvement to the 16710, so I believe that there is no argument that the LV has the same quality as the 116710. (Am I the only one who feels this way?????) I hate to harp on "quality" throughout my message, but it’s the only word that I can say that describes the difference to me. For those who have tried on both or own both will sort of know what I am saying... hopefully I am not alone on this.

Thanks for your input.

After re-reading what I have said above, it sounds like I am looking for reasons not to go LV. But it’s a must if I am to collect the anniversaries and a great watch at that. I guess its just the characteristics of the LV and its how the LV's bloat floats….

[Matthew Aspen]

oh one last unrelated item.. i saw a DSSD in an AD case yesterday. PM for the ADs number and name if youre in.

[mike]

Matthew, that's an interesting perspective you have. I'm not sure I have an answer, but perhaps a few thoughts to consider.

In some sense I think it's a bit like comparing apples to oranges. A comparison of the 16610LV to the 116710 is in a real sense comparing the "new" to the "old".

Apart from the common sharing of the maxi-dial, the two references are a view of the "classic" style case, band, clasp, etc.. to the new style "supercase", solid link bracelet, and newer style clasp.

Indeed there are many who would argue "anniversary" pertains to the first year LVs--Y series and/or the gold version of the new GMT.

The current 116710 is simply an evolution in the long run of the GMT series that has undergone various changes since it's introduction ala the 6542 in the 50s.

As to a "poor man's" Rolex in SS. I think one must consider the history of the "tool watch" concept that spawned both the diver and flier references. These were SS models. True, over the years two tone and Gold examples of each have been/are made but I doubt the collector of these great references would feel "undergunned" with the SS versions.

In time, as the Submariner adopts the larger case/ceramic bezel we see in the 116710 the LV (at least as we know it may well go the way of history--though who knows what Rolex will do.) Perhaps we will see the LV elevated to somewhat of a collectors status-perhaps not.

In any event I find the LV to be for me the ideal modern diver reference. Why? I tend to prefer the maxi-dial as for me it harkens back to the slightly larger indices of the great vintage pieces upon which the Rolex heritage is based.

While some feel the bracelet with it's hollow centerlinks and older style clasp is a dated design, it has never the less withstood the test of time and has proven to be strong indeed. Secondly, the brushed centerlinks is, to many, the definition of the practical tool watch.

I am one who also feels the newest GMT is one of the best upgrades on an historic reference Rolex has done in a long time. But, I do feel that while the polished centerlinks is fine for the "flier", I'm not sure it's the best for the "diver". (I'm well aware of the direction Rolex is moving toward the luxury end of the house--still...)

So, to sum it all up, I think we could build an arguement that both references have their champions as well as their detractors. I find the quality the same, but different--if that makes any sense. LOL!

I have both. I wear both. I have no real scheme as to how or when I wear them other than when I travel a GMT (of some sort) goes with me.

Here's a few pics for comparison,





Perhaps a better view is how the maxi compares to the standard,





Here's some great reading on the LV,

http://www.network54.com/Forum/20759...ary+Submariner

Please understand all the references you mention, the GMT IIc, LV, and GV are regular production items. Never the less a collection consisting of those references (and I would include the DSSD) would be a stunning collection indeed.

Good luck!

[chenx15]

after reading your dilemma and if i understood it correctly. i think everybody will agree with me that you should get both.

[Matthew Aspen]

Originally Posted by chenx15

after reading your dilemma and if i understood it correctly. i think everybody will agree with me that you should get both.

HILARIOUS...

I am getting both!!!

[chenx15]

Originally Posted by Matthew Aspen

HILARIOUS...

I am getting both!!!

i forgot to mention that you should give me the other one

[eltonbalch]

Originally Posted by Matthew Aspen

HILARIOUS...

I am getting both!!!

That's what I did. So I take it your lineup will look like these---

[Matthew Aspen]

Originally Posted by eltonbalch

that's what i did. So i take it your lineup will look like these---

lucky...

Dog.

[Andad]

Nice pix.

[alohanakoni]

Originally Posted by directioneng

Nice pix.

what camera did you use? nice pictures!!!

[Matthew Aspen]

Mike thank you for your response.

I just finished reading your provided link and while the link paints the Y series as the "true" anniversary model, what say you regarding the remaining 99% of the LVs out there that aren't Y? The Y is nearly impossible to obtain, so what should one do who really dreams of LV?

While the Y is extremely rare, it is my belief that rest of the LVs are anniversary as well. As is the TT GMT-C and SS GMT-C, along with the GV. They sport green and until that changes, they are deemed anniversary... IMHO.

I want to collect anniversary, but I wont bang my head against the wall searching for a snow flake in he11 Y series, while claiming the rest of the non-Y LVs aren't really anniversaries...

[mike]

Originally Posted by Matthew Aspen

Mike thank you for your response.

I just finished reading your provided link and while the link paints the Y series as the "true" anniversary model, what say you regarding the remaining 99% of the LVs out there that aren't Y? The Y is nearly impossible to obtain, so what should one do who really dreams of LV?

While the Y is extremely rare, it is my belief that rest of the LVs are anniversary as well. As is the TT GMT-C and SS GMT-C, along with the GV. They sport green and until that changes, they are deemed anniversary... IMHO.

I want to collect anniversary, but I wont bang my head against the wall searching for a snow flake in he11 Y series, while claiming the rest of the non-Y LVs aren't really anniversaries...

I think the LV, as stated by Rolex is a watch to "commemorate 50 years of the Submariner". In that sense it certainly is a more rare version of the Submariner family than it's 16610 cousin. Should the watch be discontinued in a year or two (I have no idea if this will happen) it may well find favor with future collectors as modern references go.
I think if I were to pursue that line as early example as I could find would be my target--including the older style box.

Here's a place to start,

http://www.bernardwatch.com/watch/RLX3847

To put my collector's hat on, I think I would as well pursue one of the early GVs with punched paper as opposed to the current credit card style paperwork (same for the early GMT IIc) Collector's love that sort of thing LOL!

I think the real issue is one of rarity of reference and favor with future collectors.

Should the LV be discontinued it will have had a very short run (in the overall scheme of things). I know ADs have them in stock now and pricing has fallen from artificial levels caused by speculation a while back, but the fact remains there are less LVs in the world than standard 16610s.

There was a time when the 1680, 1665, 5513 matt were in dealers showrooms as well. Time is a collector's friend.

Honestly, of the three the GMT IIc is a common reference in my view as it is a standard replacement reference of the 16710 and does not share cases with another version as does the LV and GV. It's going to be around for a long time. Will it become collectable? Perhaps if Rolex solves the problem of the bi-colored bezel and in so doing changes the wording to RED, the Green dialed watches might find some favor, but who knows.

That's only a guess on my part based on nothing but pure guesswork and not reality. LOL!

[boyet]

Originally Posted by Matthew Aspen

Mike thank you for your response.

I just finished reading your provided link and while the link paints the Y series as the "true" anniversary model, what say you regarding the remaining 99% of the LVs out there that aren't Y? The Y is nearly impossible to obtain, so what should one do who really dreams of LV?

While the Y is extremely rare, it is my belief that rest of the LVs are anniversary as well. As is the TT GMT-C and SS GMT-C, along with the GV. They sport green and until that changes, they are deemed anniversary... IMHO.

I want to collect anniversary, but I wont bang my head against the wall searching for a snow flake in he11 Y series, while claiming the rest of the non-Y LVs aren't really anniversaries...

Y serial or M serial doesn't matter to me, LV has the feel of classic with some bonus, Maxi dial(love it), Green insert(unique)
here's mine (M)


A weekend warrior

[Matthew Aspen]

Moreover.. I have a Z series 116710 on persons (I was one of the first people on the planet to get this watch in June of 2007 - it even has the "ultra-rare" hologram on the back.. never to be seen again on a 116710) and under the web link's premise thats the first generation GMT-C SS and only "true" anniversary of the SS version. where does one draw the line on this faux thinking??

BUT I wouldnt dare say to someone who has a current series 116710 that theirs isnt a "true" anniversary model if its non-Z. Thats BS - if its sporting green and Rolex refers to it as an anniversary model.. then we call it as we see it.

[East Bay Rider]

The all gold GMT IIc is the anniversary edition. The green 24 hour hand on the SS GMT IIc is standard issue.

[Matthew Aspen]

Originally Posted by East Bay Rider

The all gold GMT IIc is the anniversary edition. The green 24 hour hand on the SS GMT IIc is standard issue.

I somewhat disagree... If we take the black face all gold GMTC and swap out the all gold we have the TT and SS variant of the respective GMT-Cs. Rolex puts green on watches in which they celebrate their anniversary (as everyone knows this). Name me more Rolex watches having green that arent anniversary with the exception of the LV, GMT-C, and GV?

The introduction of these watches was triggered based upon an anniversary celebration - this is Rolex's intention. So to say that the SS GMT-C isnt an anniversary model doesnt make much sense. That said.. will Rolex make the SS GMT-C with a green 24 hr hand for quite sometime - most likely. Afterall, they have been making the anniversary LV for quite sometime as well.

Finally all the anniversary editions (sporting green) have letters after their numbers. ie. 116710 LN, 16610 LV, GV etc. (many of the non-anniversary, normal editions do not, obviously.) I think that the letters with numbers with anniversary editions is no coincidence and further proves Rolex's anniversary intention of these watches.

[teo]

It will need at least 10 yrs after discontinued before it become collectible. Put money in low price stocks now or next year, it will reap more earnings and faster.

[East Bay Rider]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that the originally introduced anniversary edition of the GMT IIc was YG with green dial.

My GMT II is officially known as 16710LN
LN = Lunette Noir = BLACK BEZEL
The added letters are just descriptive.

[gmtobsessed]

Originally Posted by East Bay Rider

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that the originally introduced anniversary edition of the GMT IIc was YG with green dial.

My GMT II is officially known as 16710LN
LN = Lunette Noir = BLACK BEZEL
The added letters are just descriptive.

That's exactly what I thought, I might be wrong.
Is there green dial 116718 still produced?

[Matthew Aspen]

Originally Posted by gmtobsessed

that's exactly what i thought, i might be wrong.
Is there green dial 116718 still produced?

the 50th gmt came out in 2 version the green face and black face. The tt and the ss are the exact same as the black face w two exceptions: 1. Materials 2. Black face date numbers are green. Therefore the tt and ss are anniversary models.

Anniversary models have 2 characteristics: 1. They sport green. 2. They have letters following their serial numbers. Ln means lunette noir. Why isnt a normal sub called lunette noir, and sport letters after its serial numbers? Cuz its not an anniversary.

green face GMT is still produced.

There is no more debating this. I am ending this thread now.

[East Bay Rider]

"The present model
By 1986 the GMT-Master II – the ref. no. 16710 was introduced.

The ref. 16710 was fitted with the 3185 movement. The main difference from the ref. 16700 being the ability to move the hour hand forwards or backwards in precise one hour jumps without affecting the minute or second hands, and allowing more flexibility in viewing any two time zones simultaneously. The 16710-series was discontinued at the beginning of 2008 after a production run of almost 22 years.

The all new and revised GMT-Master II in gold – the ref. 116718 – was first introduced at Basel World in 2005. It was launched as a so-called “anniversary model” with a green dial. Today the ref. 116718 is also available with a black dial (ref. 116718LN).

In April 2006 the gold/steel version was introduced at Basel World - the ref. 116713LN. And finally in April of 2007 , the all steel version became available (ref. 116710LN).

The “LN” by the way stands for Lunette Noir (French for black bezel)."


Found here
http://movements.dk/gmt-master_116713ln.shtml

[Matthew Aspen]

Originally Posted by East Bay Rider

"The present model
By 1986 the GMT-Master II – the ref. no. 16710 was introduced.

The ref. 16710 was fitted with the 3185 movement. The main difference from the ref. 16700 being the ability to move the hour hand forwards or backwards in precise one hour jumps without affecting the minute or second hands, and allowing more flexibility in viewing any two time zones simultaneously. The 16710-series was discontinued at the beginning of 2008 after a production run of almost 22 years.

The all new and revised GMT-Master II in gold – the ref. 116718 – was first introduced at Basel World in 2005. It was launched as a so-called “anniversary model” with a green dial. Today the ref. 116718 is also available with a black dial (ref. 116718LN).

In April 2006 the gold/steel version was introduced at Basel World - the ref. 116713LN. And finally in April of 2007 , the all steel version became available (ref. 116710LN).

The “LN” by the way stands for Lunette Noir (French for black bezel)."


Found here
http://movements.dk/gmt-master_116713ln.shtml

EBR - Thank you for your post and reference. However, this passage doesn't particularly say that the TT and SS versions of the GMT-C aren't anniversary models.

What it does say, to me, is the anniversary version 116718 came out in 2005 AND it is also available in these LN versions etc.

Its actually a very close call on what the description says - I can see how you would infer your point of view. However since the 116718 was a result of an anniversary - the GMTs that trickled down: TT/SS etc also sporting green tells me Rolex's intention was Anniversary models for these as well. Thats just my 2 cents.

Also this website/source is the view of a collector, and not an official Rolex stance.

[teo]

Rarity about LV sub:

http://www.newturfers.com/bin/mwf/to...w.pl?tid=49216

[082013]

I had the same dilema, and in the end, for purely cosmetics, kept the LV. I have had 3 or 4 GMT-C's, and to me they just don't represent what brought me to Rolex 25yrs ago. In fact, I actually ended up with a 16710, after the 116710, and preferred that also.

Later on today my 16610LV will be joined by a used 16570, and I honestly can't see me getting anything that starts 11 in the near future. I don't like the new designs, and I don't like the way the prices are going. I could justify £2-£3K, now that entrey level for the models I want is £4K+, I don't think they are worth it anymore.

[Matthew Aspen]

Great photo 082013!

[Andad]

Matthew,

The moderators probably wont close this thread until you get your facts right.

[Matthew Aspen]

Originally Posted by directioneng

Matthew,

The moderators probably wont close this thread until you get your facts right.

please correct my facts Old Sport.""

[Andad]

If you have a 116718 in YG with a green dial and a 3185 movement then you might have a 50th Anniversary GMT.

Stainless and TT versions just don't cut it son.

[Matthew Aspen]

Originally Posted by directioneng

If you have a 116718 in YG with a green dial and a 3185 movement then you might have a 50th Anniversary GMT.

Stainless and TT versions just don't cut it son.

are you saying the black face all gold ceramic isnt a 50th as well?

[Andad]

The Anniversary GMT IIc YG with green dial was released for the anniversary year with the 3185 movement. The following year it was available with a green or black dial (model number was the same) but with the new 3186 movement as were the subsequent GMT TT IIc's (like mine) and then the SS model.
It's interesting to note that neither Rolex's new catalogue nor their website refer to any of the current GMT IIc's as '50th Anniversary Models'. If you search this forum you will find a lot of information on this Rolex.