Need some help on this Red Sub

[tkc324]

Hi experts. I am looking to acquire this piece below:

https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/f...rvice.5363182/

Any red flags? The seller said its all original except the insert. Can anyone chime in on the validity? ITs a big purchase so can’t be too careful. Really appreciate any input on this piece. Thanks in advance.

[zapokee]

Initial thoughts:

- The seller has made a particular point of disclosing everthing about the watch and its service history. That's a good sign, as long as it comes with the related paperwork from LAWW. I'd ask to see this first - it's pretty much a legit authentication.

- I don't mind color-matched hands when they're done as well as that. That's some awesome work.

- There might be some room for negotiation due to the repaired/chipped dial (Who doesn't build a negotiation margin into their selling price?), although 23k isn't ridiculous in today's market.

- The days of holding out for a perfect all-original 1680 Red are pretty much gone. You'd be waiting a very long time and would need a very thick wallet.

Good luck with it.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by zapokee

- The seller has made a particular point of disclosing everthing about the watch and its service history. That's a good sign, as long as it comes with the related paperwork from LAWW. I'd ask to see this first - it's pretty much a legit authentication.

I'm not saying that anything is wrong with the watch at all, but how is the fact that LAWW serviced the watch an authentication? I'm pretty sure they will work on whatever they are paid to work on. Not a counterfeit, obviously, but they would certainly service watches with franken parts, service parts, aftermarket parts, etc.

[zapokee]

Originally Posted by Dan S

I'm not saying that anything is wrong with the watch at all, but how is the fact that LAWW serviced the watch an authentication? I'm pretty sure they will work on whatever they are paid to work on. Not a counterfeit, obviously, but they would certainly service watches with franken parts, service parts, aftermarket parts, etc.

Yes, you might be right. I don't know their policy regarding what they will/won't work on, but they have an excellent reputation to protect, so I assume they wouldn't associate themselves with anything dreadful.

I do accept your point that LAWW paperwork isn't definitive authentication, but I wouldn't consider it worthless. They're famously legit guys.

They actually serviced my 1680 Red when they were part of the old outfit, and did an amazing job.

[Dan S]

Not a knock on LAWW at all. I have also had work done by them on multiple occasions and I have only good things to say about them.

[HarryLime]

The price isn't too insane, but I'm not sure I could live with those chips on the dial, especially ones that were "professionally repaired".

[Andad]

At that price point I would have expected pix of the movement and any case /case back corrosion?

[tkc324]

Originally Posted by zapokee

Initial thoughts:

- The seller has made a particular point of disclosing everthing about the watch and its service history. That's a good sign, as long as it comes with the related paperwork from LAWW. I'd ask to see this first - it's pretty much a legit authentication.

- I don't mind color-matched hands when they're done as well as that. That's some awesome work.

- There might be some room for negotiation due to the repaired/chipped dial (Who doesn't build a negotiation margin into their selling price?), although 23k isn't ridiculous in today's market.

- The days of holding out for a perfect all-original 1680 Red are pretty much gone. You'd be waiting a very long time and would need a very thick wallet.

Good luck with it.

Thanks for the note. I have worked w LAWW def top notch

[tkc324]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

The price isn't too insane, but I'm not sure I could live with those chips on the dial, especially ones that were "professionally repaired".

True. One of my main concern to be honest and the fact that it can continue to degrade.

[Dan S]

I'm definitely not an expert on 1680s, but my general impression is that it's a nice watch to wear, but not a top-notch collector example, so it depends what you are looking for. I guess that's the type of Red Sub you will get for $23k on the internet these days. It has been restored so that it can be enjoyed, with relumed hands and repairs on the dial (I see one on the edge by the 23-24 second marks), new crystal, serviced, etc. The case, bezel, and insert seem mediocre, but I'm sure it will be appealing overall on the wrist. As an aside, the photos are annoyingly small, uncropped, and low-res, but perhaps the seller will send better photos on request.

[tkc324]

Originally Posted by Dan S

I'm definitely not an expert on 1680s, but my general impression is that it's a nice watch to wear, but not a top-notch collector example, so it depends what you are looking for. I guess that's the type of Red Sub you will get for $23k on the internet these days. It has been restored so that it can be enjoyed, with relumed hands and repairs on the dial (I see one on the edge by the 23-24 second marks), new crystal, serviced, etc. The case, bezel, and insert seem mediocre, but I'm sure it will be appealing overall on the wrist. As an aside, the photos are annoyingly small, uncropped, and low-res, but perhaps the seller will send better photos on request.

Dan always appreciate your honest feedback. I agree with you on pretty much all accounts here. The chip on the dial is really what bugs me the most as well, especially if it continue to degrade over time.

[gilel]

Hi all,
The case seems overpolished on one side (very thin lug).
Am I wrong ?
gilel

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by gilel

Hi all,
The case seems overpolished on one side (very thin lug).
Am I wrong ?
gilel

All older cases like these, that were originally hand-cut, have different lug sizes to begin with. If a case has been subsequently polished over the years, it’s logical that the thinnest lug to begin with will suffer the most.
That said, I’d be very happy with this case considering its age.

[Ascari_2]

Amplitude of 224 in the dial-up position with the graph that it has on the time grapher is indicative of the watch needing a full overhaul. In my experience, the bare minimum amplitude for a Cal 15xx movement should be around 250 with a stable graph. As you start to approach the low 200s, that's clearly time for a service. Also, the non-straight graph would give me slight pause for concern.

That said, servicing one of these movements is fairly straight forward and unless you need new parts like a balance wheel with hairspring (which can run about $500) the cost would be between $300 and $700 from an independent.

As an example, here's one of my watches https://postimg.cc/Q9n6twvN (albeit this is with a 3035 movement, but the principles are the same).

As a final comment, the watch might not have been wound when the picture was taken ... though that would be odd since that's how you normally use the time grapher and you'd think that the person knows about it if they have access to it.

[tkc324]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

All older cases like these, that were originally hand-cut, have different lug sizes to begin with. If a case has been subsequently polished over the years, it’s logical that the thinnest lug to begin with will suffer the most.
That said, I’d be very happy with this case considering its age.

Agreed. the case is not bad for its age. i have seen way worse thats for sure

[tkc324]

Originally Posted by Ascari_2

Amplitude of 224 in the dial-up position with the graph that it has on the time grapher is indicative of the watch needing a full overhaul. In my experience, the bare minimum amplitude for a Cal 15xx movement should be around 250 with a stable graph. As you start to approach the low 200s, that's clearly time for a service. Also, the non-straight graph would give me slight pause for concern.

That said, servicing one of these movements is fairly straight forward and unless you need new parts like a balance wheel with hairspring (which can run about $500) the cost would be between $300 and $700 from an independent.

As an example, here's one of my watches https://postimg.cc/Q9n6twvN (albeit this is with a 3035 movement, but the principles are the same).

As a final comment, the watch might not have been wound when the picture was taken ... though that would be odd since that's how you normally use the time grapher and you'd think that the person knows about it if they have access to it.

Great input. Really appreciate it. Something that I would have never thought to ask to be honest

[karleone]

Case has been polished but it's pretty well done. A lot of information on the watch and transparency from the dealer that's good. I don't like the difference in coulours on plots on the dial (darker and lighter shades). That would bother me!

[SaintMickey]

Man I have clearly moved on from vintage. 23k is INSANE in my world... depending on how long one has done this I guess ruined me personally. Not that many years ago at 11k I'd be in. Not saying many won't pay that but...it didn't go yet.

I guess once you buy a new one at MSRP perspective changes dramatically.

[michaelodonnell123]

For that price, I expect a watch in much better condition. That one is all beat up.

[SaintMickey]

Originally Posted by michaelodonnell123

For that price, I expect a watch in much better condition. That one is all beat up.

Yeah nice polish, new dial, hands and insert and BOOM!

[dbhak22]

Originally Posted by Ascari_2

Amplitude of 224 in the dial-up position with the graph that it has on the time grapher is indicative of the watch needing a full overhaul. In my experience, the bare minimum amplitude for a Cal 15xx movement should be around 250 with a stable graph. As you start to approach the low 200s, that's clearly time for a service. Also, the non-straight graph would give me slight pause for concern.

That said, servicing one of these movements is fairly straight forward and unless you need new parts like a balance wheel with hairspring (which can run about $500) the cost would be between $300 and $700 from an independent.

As an example, here's one of my watches https://postimg.cc/Q9n6twvN (albeit this is with a 3035 movement, but the principles are the same).

As a final comment, the watch might not have been wound when the picture was taken ... though that would be odd since that's how you normally use the time grapher and you'd think that the person knows about it if they have access to it.

Appreciate the notes! I am the seller of the watch in question here and will admit, I don't know what I'm doing with the timegrapher, :) I am now realizing I probably should have done my due diligence in fully understanding how to leverage it before taking photos of a 5-figure watch with it. However, the watch was fully serviced by LAWW just this year so highly doubt it needs a "full overhaul" or a service. Simply my mistake in not winding the watch fully nor taking readings in different positions. Apologies, Tom/all.

[dbhak22]

Originally Posted by tkc324

Dan always appreciate your honest feedback. I agree with you on pretty much all accounts here. The chip on the dial is really what bugs me the most as well, especially if it continue to degrade over time.

Tom, as far as I know, chips aren't something that continues to degrade like other dial damage (ie. dial lacquer starts to degrade, lume patina, etc.).

[dbhak22]

Originally Posted by Dan S

I'm definitely not an expert on 1680s, but my general impression is that it's a nice watch to wear, but not a top-notch collector example, so it depends what you are looking for. I guess that's the type of Red Sub you will get for $23k on the internet these days. It has been restored so that it can be enjoyed, with relumed hands and repairs on the dial (I see one on the edge by the 23-24 second marks), new crystal, serviced, etc. The case, bezel, and insert seem mediocre, but I'm sure it will be appealing overall on the wrist. As an aside, the photos are annoyingly small, uncropped, and low-res, but perhaps the seller will send better photos on request.

Yes, I need to resize (ie. make smaller) for online image hosting reasons (although I could probably find a different provider) but always willing to send/share the original high-res images over email/text.

[dbhak22]

Originally Posted by Andad

At that price point I would have expected pix of the movement and any case /case back corrosion?

I am not comfortable removing the case back once the service was completed by LAWW as it will compromise the seal (I'm not a watchmaker). I do have a picture of the movement in parts (courtesy of LAWW) and can assure any potential buyer that there is no corrosion and the movement is in great condition. (Should/could have requested LAWW to take a picture of the movement but I did not have plans to sell the watch until recently.)

[Ascari_2]

Originally Posted by dbhak22

Appreciate the notes! I am the seller of the watch in question here and will admit, I don't know what I'm doing with the timegrapher, :) I am now realizing I probably should have done my due diligence in fully understanding how to leverage it before taking photos of a 5-figure watch with it. However, the watch was fully serviced by LAWW just this year so highly doubt it needs a "full overhaul" or a service. Simply my mistake in not winding the watch fully nor taking readings in different positions. Apologies, Tom/all.

dbhak22, glad for some feedback. Unfortunately, people are gong off of the pictures that they see and without the benefit of your explanation the pictures raise questions.

For your own benefit I would wind the watch fully and retake that picture. I am certainly not questioning the veracity of the watch being serviced by LAWW. Just saying that you'd be much better off with a picture showing the watch running as it should after being serviced rather than showing something that will create doubt in the buyer's mind.

[Ascari_2]

Originally Posted by dbhak22

I am not comfortable removing the case back once the service was completed by LAWW as it will compromise the seal (I'm not a watchmaker). I do have a picture of the movement in parts (courtesy of LAWW) and can assure any potential buyer that there is no corrosion and the movement is in great condition. (Should/could have requested LAWW to take a picture of the movement but I did not have plans to sell the watch until recently.)

As far as removing/replacing the caseback, ideally it should be done by someone with the appropriate tool like this https://www.esslinger.com/bergeon-57...proof-watches/. There is nothing particularly special about the seal itself assuming that you have a relatively fresh gasket. All that's required is sufficient torque to screw down the caseback and compress the seal between the metal surfaces. But simply removing and replacing the caseback between service intervals is not frowned upon. As an added check, a water pressure test can always reconfirm the tightness of all seals.

[dbhak22]

Originally Posted by Ascari_2

dbhak22, glad for some feedback. Unfortunately, people are gong off of the pictures that they see and without the benefit of your explanation the pictures raise questions.

For your own benefit I would wind the watch fully and retake that picture. I am certainly not questioning the veracity of the watch being serviced by LAWW. Just saying that you'd be much better off with a picture showing the watch running as it should after being serviced rather than showing something that will create doubt in the buyer's mind.

Really appreciate the tips! I did as you said (wind the watch fully) and sure enough, the readings look much better, :)

I was completing doing myself a disservice with the previous photo (which I'll append to my listing)...

[Ascari_2]

Originally Posted by dbhak22

Really appreciate the tips! I did as you said (wind the watch fully) and sure enough, the readings look much better, :)



I was completing doing myself a disservice with the previous photo (which I'll append to my listing)...

Now that's a serviced movement.

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[tekno]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

The price isn't too insane, but I'm not sure I could live with those chips on the dial, especially ones that were "professionally repaired".

I didn’t see those right off. If they were repaired professionally they wouldn’t be such a eye sore I assume. The paint used is too black.


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