5508 Sub with military provenance

[cajuntiger]

Hi all,
Ive been away from the forums for a few years and out of touch with the current state of vintage Rolex, so looking for some advice on a friend's watch.

She inherited her Dad's 5508 Rolex last year. He served in the US Navy on a submarine and bought the watch right after Graduation from the Naval Academy around 1958-59. She literally found the watch in his sock drawer with boxes of his military medals after he passed away last year. She recalls that he wore it all the time.

She has some photos of him wearing the watch while in uniform, unfortunately they aren't the clearest images of the watch itself...but she does recall that he always wore it backwards on his left wrist.

The watch has some issue...when she brought it to me to evaluate it wasn't running and the crystal was badly scratched...it was very difficult to see the dial condition. I used some poly watch and was able to see that the dial is in remarkable condition...but then checked it with a black light and geiger counter. The hands and dial all glow evenly, but the geiger registers nothing. Yet the dial appears correct for serial is 400176, which puts the date of manufacture around 1958. But then I removed the case back and this is where it gets interesting...the Caseback is dated III.66. I posted about this earlier in the year, but adding some additional info.

My observations:
1- The dial is a gilt dial that appears correct for 1958 (not a typical service dial), but it has Tritium or similar lume. Why?
2- The case back is dated 1966 and only has one service mark
3- The case and caliber 1530 movement appear original
4- The bezel is original, but the insert is later.
5- The hands appear to be later hands from 60's...possible replaced at same service?

Regarding #1 and #2...im assuming that her Dad brought the watch to be serviced in 1966 and for some reason the dial was replaced, but a correct gilt spare dial was still in stock so it was lumed with the current tritium. This would explain the case back being changed as well. Alternately he could have sent it to Rolex with the request to have the radioactive dial replaced, this is a reasonable possibility as he was hoping to transition to a nuclear sub...regardless this is all speculation as she cant find any service paperwork or receipts.

Any advice or comments on the dial would be appreciated...has anyone seen a service dial like this on a 5508?

[cajuntiger]

a few more pics

[cajuntiger]

Her Dad with the watch

[alwayshere]

Woah.... very very cool

[Avs Fan]

Others will provide insight, but regardless of the originality or the amount of service parts, this is how watches were worn, and fixed when they broke. In a sense this is exactly what should be expected. Also love the provenance and am thankful for his service.

[linesiders]

Good to see it getting air ; )

[Texasjim]

Rad watch amigo!

[subx]

Originally Posted by avs fan

others will provide insight, but regardless of the originality or the amount of service parts, this is how watches were worn, and fixed when they broke. In a sense this is exactly what should be expected. Also love the provenance and am thankful for his service.

+1

[dhknola]

What a watch! Nice one Cajun.

[2000-NJDEVILS]

Great pictures -
Thanks for sharing!!!
I do not recall a place down south that specializes in restoring vintage Rolex watches - but there has to be one that can make this beautiful watch come back to life.
Also, the old tritium dials cannot be re-lumed. My 95 year old dad has some old Bubbleback Rolex watches from his dad, and years ago, Rolex NYC on 5th Avenue said they do not have the ability to make these dials glow due to US Laws regarding tritium and other gases or radioactive issues (I’m not a scientist).
Good luck to you and your friend!

[cajuntiger]

Originally Posted by 2000-NJDEVILS

Great pictures -
Thanks for sharing!!!
I do not recall a place down south that specializes in restoring vintage Rolex watches - but there has to be one that can make this beautiful watch come back to life.

Ive always used Bob Ridley in Texas for vintage Rolex

Originally Posted by 2000-NJDEVILS

Also, the old tritium dials cannot be re-lumed. My 95 year old dad has some old Bubbleback Rolex watches from his dad, and years ago, Rolex NYC on 5th Avenue said they do not have the ability to make these dials glow due to US Laws regarding tritium and other gases or radioactive issues (I’m not a scientist).

This watch as sold in 1958 had radium on the dial...this dial defiantly has Tritium which wasn't used until 1963. So Im assuming that when the case back was replaced in 1966 Rolex service also replaced the dial. Since this dial isnt a typical service dial which looks different than the original dial, I'm assuming Rolex still had a spare original dial in the parts bin when this watch was serviced and it was lumed with tritium at that time. Short of the tritium, this dial is exactly the same as the original dial in appearance. Typically when you see a dial replacement from Rolex a service dial is used. If anyone has other thoughts id love to hear them.

[cajuntiger]

service dial for comparison

[lupus66]

Looks radium and hands tritium.

[Dom9]

That's lovely! Really starting to enjoy a Sub without CGs!

[2000-NJDEVILS]

[QUOTE=cajuntiger;13338071]Ive always used Bob Ridley in Texas for vintage Rolex


Thanks for the heads up!
I’m actually leaning towards retiring to somewhere in Big D - just haven’t been able to motivate the wife, kids, grandkids, sisters, cousin's to get onboard yet….

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by lupus66

Looks radium and hands tritium.

I was gonna say the markers definitely look tritium. They’re the exact shade as those on my 1966 5513.

[cajuntiger]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

I was gonna say the markers definitely look tritium. They’re the exact shade as those on my 1966 5513.

definitely tritium...has that slight green cast after energized. I also tested with radiation meter and it has no feedback.

[AussieWatchGuy]

Originally Posted by cajuntiger

definitely tritium...has that slight green cast after energized. I also tested with radiation meter and it has no feedback.

Certainly I do agree, the green colour to the lume also gives it away that the dial has been relumed at a later point, I would personally say that Rolex wouldn’t have relumed the dial, as when they are new old stock they usually come already with lume attached.

It’s potentially when the caseback service mark was made is when the dial was relumed. It’s a lovely watch overall and tells a story in its condition and its previous owners history.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cajuntiger]

Originally Posted by AussieWatchGuy

Certainly I do agree, the green colour to the lume also gives it away that the dial has been relumed at a later point, I would personally say that Rolex wouldn’t have relumed the dial, as when they are new old stock they usually come already with lume attached.

It’s potentially when the caseback service mark was made is when the dial was relumed. It’s a lovely watch overall and tells a story in its condition and its previous owners history.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I didnt say "relumed"
What I suggested was that the dial was replaced with a new old stock dial from inventory and tritium was applied to the dial at that time since radium was no longer available or used.

the green I mentioned was common for a short period on dials lumed in late 1966/67 ...its only visible when the lume is charged, then it slowly fades. Here is a shot of the same 5508 dial (Pre polywatch) when it hasn't been charged with strong light. I own several subs from 1967 that have this same attribute:

[fozzyf18]

What a wonderful watch! There are a few other Naval Academy grads on the forum that certainly will appreciate this story of your friend's watch.

I won't speak for them of course, but I can say with certainty that I really wished I had made the financial leap to buy the Submariner that was for sale at the Naval Academy Midshipman store in 1995 when I graduated and they had both the Sub and Sub-date for sale around $1100 and $1300 if I recall correctly. It would be the gem of my collection if I had pulled that trigger.

Excellent pictures of the watch of course, but the service/uniformed pictures tell a story as well. That picture of 11th Company in formation is definitely Worden Field where all dress parades are held at the Naval Academy.

The picture in front of the fountain- your friend's father is a Plebe (freshman at the Naval Academy), evident by the fact that he is not displaying any stripes. I note the bracelet on his left wrist, watch face down as you described. If he purchased this Sub after graduation, then the watch he is wearing in this picture is not the Sub because this picture would have been taken 3-4 years before graduation. There is a prominent ring on his right ring finger which would normally suggest a USNA ring, which you don't earn until the end of your second-class (junior) year...but back then, it was customary to wear your USNA class ring on you left hand which would be the same hand as the wrist that he preferred to wear his watch. This suggests that it is not a reverse image. Not at all a big deal because if he was indeed a Plebe in the picture as the uniform suggests, that ring would not have been his USNA class ring- perhaps a high school ring. Having a Rolex and a USNA class ring from the same era is something amazing. I remember reading (I believe in John McCain's book) something about having a thousand dollar left arm- Rolex watch and USNA class ring.

The picture of the battleship is amazing. That would be BB-61, USS IOWA, flagship of the last of the 16" gun fleet of four battleships. An amazing warship and feat of engineering. Those ships could launch a round with the equivalent weight of a Volkswagen Beetle 22 nautical miles. I have walked the Douglas fir decks (originally teak) of several of the decommissioned decks of these behemoths in awe. Simply amazing.

I will reserve any comments regarding the particular details of the vintage bona fides of your friend's watch because there are many more qualified experts on this forum that can fill that gap. I can only say that it is amazing watch with some remarkable history and I sincerely hope that she enjoys it and her father's legacy.

Thank you for sharing!

[cajuntiger]

Originally Posted by fozzyf18

What a wonderful watch! There are a few other Naval Academy grads on the forum that certainly will appreciate this story of your friend's watch.

I won't speak for them of course, but I can say with certainty that I really wished I had made the financial leap to buy the Submariner that was for sale at the Naval Academy Midshipman store in 1995 when I graduated and they had both the Sub and Sub-date for sale around $1100 and $1300 if I recall correctly. It would be the gem of my collection if I had pulled that trigger.

Excellent pictures of the watch of course, but the service/uniformed pictures tell a story as well. That picture of 11th Company in formation is definitely Worden Field where all dress parades are held at the Naval Academy.

The picture in front of the fountain- your friend's father is a Plebe (freshman at the Naval Academy), evident by the fact that he is not displaying any stripes. I note the bracelet on his left wrist, watch face down as you described. If he purchased this Sub after graduation, then the watch he is wearing in this picture is not the Sub because this picture would have been taken 3-4 years before graduation. There is a prominent ring on his right ring finger which would normally suggest a USNA ring, which you don't earn until the end of your second-class (junior) year...but back then, it was customary to wear your USNA class ring on you left hand which would be the same hand as the wrist that he preferred to wear his watch. This suggests that it is not a reverse image. Not at all a big deal because if he was indeed a Plebe in the picture as the uniform suggests, that ring would not have been his USNA class ring- perhaps a high school ring. Having a Rolex and a USNA class ring from the same era is something amazing. I remember reading (I believe in John McCain's book) something about having a thousand dollar left arm- Rolex watch and USNA class ring.

The picture of the battleship is amazing. That would be BB-61, USS IOWA, flagship of the last of the 16" gun fleet of four battleships. An amazing warship and feat of engineering. Those ships could launch a round with the equivalent weight of a Volkswagen Beetle 22 nautical miles. I have walked the Douglas fir decks (originally teak) of several of the decommissioned decks of these behemoths in awe. Simply amazing.

I will reserve any comments regarding the particular details of the vintage bona fides of your friend's watch because there are many more qualified experts on this forum that can fill that gap. I can only say that it is amazing watch with some remarkable history and I sincerely hope that she enjoys it and her father's legacy.

Thank you for sharing!

fascinating info, thanks for sharing...the photos are from a box of slides she found.
Here are some more pics:

[cajuntiger]

more

[fozzyf18]

Wow Cajun! More great history and amazing pictures! Your friend's father spent some time on an old aircraft carrier as well. These days, modern aircraft carriers have 4 or as few as 3 arresting wires, and many a current carrier pilot wished there would have been 11 wires like there were in that picture.

That Naval Academy ring has been well-worn and no doubt well-loved. Back in the day, guys used to wear their USNA as religiously as they did their wedding ring. Your friend's father did just that which is evident by the wear- inspiring. The "thousand dollar arm" as I mentioned before is the USNA class ring and Rolex on the left arm. Many a grad in the Vietnam era sported this back in the day. These days, a 14K ring with its weight and a Sub would be valued at much more. Member SS Oyster even has his USNA ring as his avatar.

That picture of your friend's father in dress choker whites as a Plebe (no stripes on his shoulder-boards) is on "Red Beach"...slang name for the red tiled portion of Bancroft Hall (USNA barracks for lack of a better term where all 4,000+ Midshipmen call home for their stay). "Mother B" as Bancroft Hall is known to those that attend the school. Red Beach is the only place where Midshipmen were allowed to sunbathe. In your friend's father's days, it was just guys (females were not allowed in to USNA before 1976). In my day, it was where you might catch a glimpse of your fellow female Midshipmen in bathing suits. Having a room that overlooked Red Beach, (something for which you have no input) was choice real estate.

[Apdl]

That is amazing!
What a Stud that guy was!
I hope she cherishes it!

[linesiders]

Originally Posted by cajuntiger

has anyone seen a service dial like this on a 5508?

As we discussed earlier, in the very early 60s that same radium dial would be replaced with a tritium dial based on the same printing. Not common but not unusual either. Some of these radium dials were off the charts with emissions and Rolex and swap them. My 7922 has one of these extremely early service dials in Tritium rather than radium.

[cajuntiger]

Originally Posted by linesiders

As we discussed earlier, in the very early 60s that same radium dial would be replaced with a tritium dial based on the same printing. Not common but not unusual either. Some of these radium dials were off the charts with emissions and Rolex and swap them. My 7922 has one of these extremely early service dials in Tritium rather than radium.

Thanks! Was it typically replaced by request only or automatically replaced when brought in for service?

[0nly5iv3Digits]

Rolex became concerned about the radiation of the early dials that was beginning to come to light around that time. It's my opinion that they changed it during service, not at any particular request of the original owner. Many were, as far as I understand.

Nothing here looks amiss. What a gorgeous watch, and in lovely condition as well. I hope she gets it running and wears it!

[flyinghell34]

Great gouge on this beautiful watch and history.

Wonderful pictures too! Carrier looks like the USS Midway before she got the angle on her deck.

[linesiders]

Originally Posted by cajuntiger

Thanks! Was it typically replaced by request only or automatically replaced when brought in for service?

As 0nly5iv3Digits posted, Rolex would often just change them, but there were also articles/news on Rolex models being called back due to "excessive" radiation and some people wanted that swapped.

I think a lot of us discounted the possibility that as some dials went to Tritium within a couple years, that they would simply be the original print but in trit instead of radium. There have been perfect NOS dials found that were same fonts as radium, but were simply done in tritium.

Most of those made it to watches in the early 60s. I have a 54 7922 with correct Gilt Chapter/Gilt print but Tritium, I have a 59 5512 with Gilt Chapter/Gilt tritium dial.

Mid - Later 60s would have the more common T SWISS < 25 released as service dials. Around 1960 4 they came out with this newer style service dial, and that's why we see those silver print dials for Rolex and for Tudor, and why we see Tudor gilt 7922/7924 dials with T SWISS < 25

Originally Posted by 0nly5iv3Digits

Rolex became concerned about the radiation of the early dials that was beginning to come to light around that time. It's my opinion that they changed it during service, not at any particular request of the original owner. Many were, as far as I understand.

Nothing here looks amiss. What a gorgeous watch, and in lovely condition as well. I hope she gets it running and wears it!

^^^ This

[reedzpainter]

Originally Posted by linesiders

As 0nly5iv3Digits posted, Rolex would often just change them, but there were also articles/news on Rolex models being called back due to "excessive" radiation and some people wanted that swapped.

I think a lot of us discounted the possibility that as some dials went to Tritium within a couple years, that they would simply be the original print but in trit instead of radium. There have been perfect NOS dials found that were same fonts as radium, but were simply done in tritium.

Most of those made it to watches in the early 60s. I have a 54 7922 with correct Gilt Chapter/Gilt print but Tritium, I have a 59 5512 with Gilt Chapter/Gilt tritium dial.

Mid - Later 60s would have the more common T SWISS &lt; 25 released as service dials. Around 1960 4 they came out with this newer style service dial, and that's why we see those silver print dials for Rolex and for Tudor, and why we see Tudor gilt 7922/7924 dials with T SWISS &lt; 25




^^^ This

Great to see these posts and fantastic pictures and information.
To add to early service dials; here is my ‘II.62’ 5508 from 1962 which has case back markings from a Rolex Geneva service ‘GE IV 1965’. The dial was replaced with a glossy Gilt Tritium lumed dial and on top of the lacquer layer is the silver depth rating which in this instance was inverted with ‘SUBMARINER’.