Ian Fleming’s 1016 Explorer Movement and SN? Quandary? (v2)

[Davey_Dave]

Ian Flemming used to live close to where I am. My parents almost bought his house. James Bond is 007 because that is the bus Ian Flemming took from Canterbury to London. Interesting fact of the day

[173rdabn]

Really interesting reading and great information. I'm sure the debate will go on forever, it makes for intense speculation.

[Pete26]

In the recent Bond novel which is set at the conclusion of Goldfinger. Bond is wearing a Submariner that he had owned for three years. The novel is set in the late 50's. The author has just released another novel, authorised by Ian Flemings estate.

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[neilziesing]

Originally Posted by Davey_Dave

Ian Flemming used to live close to where I am. My parents almost bought his house. James Bond is 007 because that is the bus Ian Flemming took from Canterbury to London. Interesting fact of the day

I never heard that 007 anecdote. Thank you for sharing that!


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[CJNJ]

IMO, Bond was certainly Fleming's alter ego. They were both Naval Commanders, their families both came from Scotland, they wore the same clothes, ate the same food, frequented the same clubs and restaurants, had the same opinions about women and women's fashions. So it is logical to me that they wore the same watch, the Explorer. It fits the descriptions as an Oyster with big numerals except for the reference to it being "heavy" which may just be another way of saying it was robust or solid, in comparison to other watches of the period. This is a fun debate for those of us who love Rolex and Bond.

[HappyHooligan]

I need to pull out my novels and dig back into them.

[77T]

Originally Posted by HappyHooligan

I need to pull out my novels and dig back into them.

See pg 111 of Live and Let Die.

A nice read on Bond watches over the years: https://commanderbond.net/9641/how-i...ond-watch.html


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[HappyHooligan]

Originally Posted by 77T

See pg 111 of Live and Let Die.

A nice read on Bond watches over the years: https://commanderbond.net/9641/how-i...ond-watch.html


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which publisher? I just have the new Penguin version and I don't see anything watch related on 111.

[77T]

Originally Posted by HappyHooligan

which publisher? I just have the new Penguin version and I don't see anything watch related on 111.

The original hard cover.

The quote:
“Suddenly there was a long metallic shape hanging in the water above him.

Behind it there was a jumble of broken rock leading steeply upwards.
It was the keel of the Secatur and Bond’s heart thumped in his chest.

He looked at the Rolex watch on his wrist. It was three minutes past eleven o’clock. He selected the seven-hour fuse from the handful he extracted from a zipped side-pocket and inserted it in the fuse pocket of the mine and pushed it home.”


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[Pete26]

Originally Posted by 77T

The original hard cover.

The quote:
“Suddenly there was a long metallic shape hanging in the water above him.

Behind it there was a jumble of broken rock leading steeply upwards.
It was the keel of the Secatur and Bond’s heart thumped in his chest.

He looked at the Rolex watch on his wrist. It was three minutes past eleven o’clock. He selected the seven-hour fuse from the handful he extracted from a zipped side-pocket and inserted it in the fuse pocket of the mine and pushed it home.”


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That is right Flemings second novel and written before he got his Explorer.

Here is a photo taken in 1962 on the set of Dr No and he is definitely not wearing an Explorer, it looks to me like an Omega or Longines, or maybe any other kind of white dialed watch, could even be an IWC, it's too difficult to tell.

[77T]

I know we are getting way off into the weeds on the background but I hope it helps add some context.

I can’t tell from that picture what watch Ian Fleming is wearing but let’s don’t judge by the bracelet. That’s because Fleming clearly liked flexible ones like Speidel made.

That evidence is seen in some of his novels where some Rolexes are described on interesting bracelets. I only drew out the excerpts. And some other interesting parts - his Rolex “ticks” loud enough to be heard, has “big phosphorus numerals” and his acrylic crystals “disintegrate”.

I don’t think we’re talking about any model but an Oyster Perpetual Explorer.

From “Thunderball”
(Referring to a character that isn’t Bond)
It was time for younger men to provide the heroics. And all his life he had had a passion for owning things—flashy, exciting, expensive things. He had most of what he desired—a couple of gold cigarette cases, a solid gold Rolex Oyster Perpetual Chronometer on a flexible gold bracelet...

From “On Her Majesty’s Service”
Bond relaxed his thoughts and went out and back to his desk. He sat down and bent to his paperwork and tried not to listen to the hastening tick of the Rolex on his wrist...
Bond surveyed his weapons. They were only his hands and feet, his Gillette razor and his wristwatch, a heavy Rolex Oyster Perpetual on an expanding metal bracelet.
Gillette through the fingers of the left hand and the Rolex transferred to his right, the bracelet clasped in the palm of his hand and round the fingers so that the face of the watch lay across his middle knuckles... Bond’s right flashed out and the face of the Rolex disintegrated against the man’s jaw... Bond let go the girl’s hand and slipped the shattered Rolex back over the knuckles of his right hand. He had gathered enough strength, mostly from the girl, to have one more bash at them!
Bond lifted his left wrist. Remembered that he no longer had a watch. That he would certainly be allowed on expenses. He would get another one as soon as the shops opened after Boxing Day. Another Rolex? Probably. They were on the heavy side, but they worked. And at least you could see the time in the dark with those big phosphorus numerals.
He glanced at the new Rolex on his wrist—the shops were still shut and he had had to blarney it out of Q Branch—and guessed they would be on time.




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[Pete26]

I agree with you that the Rolex in OHMSS is the Explorer, however, I believe that the replacement Rolex is the actual Explorer because he received it in the early 60s.

He first mentions Rolex in Live And Let Die in the early 50's, before he owned the Explorer.

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[77T]

Yep - before the Explorer he could have seen/known or been told about the bubbleback with large luminous numbers...




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[Pete26]

I posted on another forum pictures of Fleming at the launch of For your Eyes only in 1960 and he appears to be wearing either an IWC or JLC Mark 11on leather strap. I will see if I can find it.

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[77T]

Originally Posted by Pete26

I posted on another forum pictures of Fleming at the launch of For your Eyes only in 1960 and he appears to be wearing either an IWC or JLC Mark 11on leather strap. I will see if I can find it.

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Begs the question, Why did he pick Rolex?

I know why Omega in the later movies...$$$ for product placements


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[Pete26]

What was called the Fleming sweep, if he liked the way a word or description sounded he would use it plus his rigorous research.

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[Pete26]

If you Google Ian Fleming images you will notice that he had quite a few different watches.

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[M4tt]

Well, as I'm here, I think I might want to have an opinion on Mr Deaton being the person who first put forward the hypothesis that Bond's original watch was an Explorer. He unambiguously wasn't.

I first put forward the hypothesis here:

https://forums.watchuseek.com/f20/ja...-198533-3.html

On the 31st of October 2008, nearly six months before Mr Deaton claims he was the first to make that connection. See post 21 followed by post 25 in which I explicitly make the claim with a clear argument that will be familiar to anyone who has read Mr Deaton's exclusive.

What is perhaps more damaging is that Mr Deaton demonstrably became aware of my hypothesis here:

https://forums.watchuseek.com/f20/ja...-198533-5.html

(Post 48) on November the fifth 2008. His article was published in February of 2009. It wasn't a scoop.

I'm not accusing Mr Deaton of plagiarism, although others in the Bond and watch community certainly did at the time. However, as a few moments on the link provided above will show, I first put forward the hypothesis that Mr Deaton claims to have been the first to make, back in November of 2008 on WUS.

Mr Deaton was fully and utterly aware of this fact and yet has claimed that this was his scoop ever since. It wasn't. Whether he stole my idea or not is something that is between Mr Deaton, his conscience and God. That he still claims he was the person to break the story demonstrates the relationship he has with his conscience.

What he did do is recorded in this collection of links:

https://forums.watchuseek.com/f20/wh...ux-222506.html

It's not pretty, but it's all still there to be found for anyone who wants further confirmation.

[Pete26]

He is well-known for this. He asked me back in the early 00's on MWR when I posted a theory that Fleming was referencing one of the Canadian Rolex watches as he visited the OSS training camp in Canada at the start of the war and a lot of those watches had full radium numerals and hands.

They would have been popular.

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[M4tt]

Originally Posted by Pete26

He is well-known for this. He asked me back in the early 00's on MWR when I posted a theory that Fleming was referencing one of the Canadian Rolex watches as he visited the OSS training camp in Canada at the start of the war and a lot of those watches had full radium numerals and hands.

They would have been popular.

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I wish I'd known that at the time. He made my life a misery. Mind you, Eric, the moderator over at WUS Omega, was so offended by it all and by how upset I was by the amount of trouble Deaton managed to stir up that he offered me an Air King, which has always been my favourite Rolex, for a few hundred pounds. I still get Bond geeks asking me watch questions to this day.

I really like small, indestructible, low key watches and it remains one of my favourite watches to this day. Not just because it's lovely, but because it will always remind me of the kindness and decency of a man I have great respect for and who really, really knew his watches.

[Swearengen]

Flemming used to live in Hampstead, near a house the architect Erno Goldfinger built and Flemming hated, which might account for the choice of names for his villain.

Originally Posted by Davey_Dave

Ian Flemming used to live close to where I am. My parents almost bought his house. James Bond is 007 because that is the bus Ian Flemming took from Canterbury to London. Interesting fact of the day

[Bigdelicious]

Wow so
Interesting

[Eitan92]

On of my favs!

Originally Posted by cruvon

no me either steve, maybe in comparison to other timepieces of the era, such as cheap disposable types, but within the Rolex range certainly not overly so.

I still find it odd that dell doesnt seem to have considered the actual watches that were being used by the MOD and naval officers at the time and presented an argument to discount them ,I know these watches are a bit less known by some and require some specialised knowledge but they seem equally plausible expecially as they also meet the few clues that the books give us - right down to the actual wording used on the dial matching the references made in the case of the 6200 and being notably heavy - for most Rolex nuts, the 369 doesnt mean anything other than a style of dial, it most certainly doesn't suggest explorer only.

If Ian Fleming was as thorough as Dell suggests, and such a stickler for detail i find it peculiar that he would simply look down at his wrist and use the example in front of him rather than reseaching what was actually being bought and used by the ministry of defense and in fact what they were buying themsleves, and if he did so, why he let it slide in the films.

until someone shows me something other i still see it as a jump to a conclusion... might be right, might not..... i just think it should be presented as speculation not certainty.

[douglasf13]

If Fleming was referring to a 3-6-9 dial Submariner, I’m surprised he wouldn’t have mentioned the timing bezel (or had Bond use it,) as it’s a standout feature.

[scottsw]

I'm new

[TuRo]

Not watch related, but Ian Fleming and Bond books it most certainly is.

Highly regarded historians, Sandbrook and Holland, of 'The Rest Is History', do an hour on the subject of his life, books and juxtaposes it to the films.

WARNING - they don't have a very high regard for Mr F, or his writing - an enlightening great and at times funny listen !

Just click and play...

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcas...=1000536687119