Mid 1940s Rolex Oyster Perpetual Chronometer (Bubbleback)

[Brent P]

My 85 year old Dad pulled this watch out of a drawer the other day and offered to give it to me. It was purchased originally by my grandfather, who died shortly after he purchased it. My grandfather gave it to my father at death only a few years after the watch is was purchased and inscribed with my grandfather’s name on it in 1947.

My Dad was a kid when he received it and he hardly wore it since then. So long as I can remember, Dad has worn an electric Seiko and today, an Apple watch. In any event, for an 80 year old watch it seems to be in fantastic shape. It’s only real value to our family is say about $500 in sentimental value in addition to what we could sell it for. I told my father to keep it in case he ever needed to sell it as he’s 85 himself now and still ticking.

Anyways, helping him with that, I researched the price history. I can see that the model was hot around year 2000 when it appears the selling price was around $20K. That’s not the case now and now they’re selling for about $3-$5K. I could see that trend reversing sometime in the future as this is a not unmeaningful piece in the Rolex timeline (perpetual being then Rolex’s first (?) instance of the self winding mechanism, giving the “Bubbleback” its unnofficial name). Also, it is a chronometer, and of course an oyster. So if it’s only real value is monetary, then ”hold” seems to me to be the order of the day.

The watch is no longer running because — almost 100% certainly — it’s simply gummed up from nonuse and nonwinding for most of its life. My father cannot remember it ever not working until he pulled it out of a drawer recently. He took it down to a local authorized watch repair shop got it running temporarily, but it needs cleaning and re-oiling for sure. Talking with my father and some local jewelers, the Dallas Rolex Service center, and a few AWC1 vintage Rolex repair people, it looks like it will cost a bare minimum of $650 or so to service, maybe triple that, and I had a wonderful over the phone estimate from Dallas of $12K+ for a complete rebuild (that plus 1-3 years waiting) that we absolutely not take on.

Anyways, if it was possible to get it running as I said it would have about $500 or so in sentimental value to my Dad and I’d probably pay that for him, but we don’t want to invest more than that to sell it unless investing more in it was clearly cost efficient. For now, I’m thinking our best course of action economically is to put it back in the drawer and if my Dad ever needs the money see what the market or used parts market looks like then.

Anyways, I’ve never owned a vintage watch anything like this, and I am posting this because I have hit the end of my patience level trying to figure out what to do with this watch. I thought I’d post this here to see if anyone has any thoughts or advice. Is it right to stick it in the drawer and just keep it until needed to be sold?

I will post a picture once I can resize it so you can see the excellent shape.

[Brent P]

Picture attached. Not the best focus but hopefully good enough so you can see the shape it’s in.

[adam78]

Fantastic example. PM sent.

[Dr.Smellody]

Looks brand new. Amazing!

[R.W.T.]

Wow that’s an incredible example. 99% The service center won’t even open it.
I can go through it for you. In Austin area.

RolexWatchTime@protonmail.com

[Brent P]

Thanks for all the compliments. It is in exceptional shape given its age.

Ultimately I imagine my father and family will keep this watch as long as possible for sentimental reasons, but it won’t be worn.

At some point, someone in our family (my father, mother in law, others) may want to sell it.

1. Is there a market for non working but likely great pieces such as these?

2. Should (as I imagine) we should it fix up first to realize maximum sales value?

3. Is there any reason to service it now if it’s not going to be used but just kept in a safe?

[Dr.Smellody]

Originally Posted by Brent P

Thanks for all the compliments. It is in exceptional shape given its age.

Ultimately I imagine my father and family will keep this watch as long as possible for sentimental reasons, but it won’t be worn.

At some point, someone in our family (my father, mother in law, others) may want to sell it.

1. Is there a market for non working but likely great pieces such as these?

2. Should (as I imagine) we should it fix up first to realize maximum sales value?

3. Is there any reason to service it now if it’s not going to be used but just kept in a safe?

There's a limited market. I'd love ro have it. It is exceptional. If this was the early 90's. . .

[offrdmania]

The problem is that the Bubbleback collectors are getting way up in age, the market for them has greatly declined due to their small size. In the late 80s and into the 90s they were all the rage but fashion and fads change and for todays younger watch buyer, it is just way too small.

[Dan S]

In general, there's not much benefit to servicing the watch just to put it in a safe. In fact, collectors generally like to purchase watches that haven't been tampered with, so you might want to think twice about "fixing it up" to maximize the sales value. Too often we've seen people spend a lot of money to have watches restored, and actually reduce the value of the watch. If you do anything, it should be very minimal, just to get it running.

[epc2]

That's an incredible piece of history you've got there! Given its sentimental value and historical significance, holding onto it sounds like a wise choice, especially since vintage watch markets can be unpredictable. Getting it serviced locally for a reasonable price, around the $650 mark, might be worth it if you and your dad would enjoy having it running again. Otherwise, preserving it as is could be a good option.

[R.W.T.]

Originally Posted by offrdmania

The problem is that the Bubbleback collectors are getting way up in age, the market for them has greatly declined due to their small size. In the late 80s and into the 90s they were all the rage but fashion and fads change and for todays younger watch buyer, it is just way too small.

I disagree. Trends cycle. The trend now is already going toward a smaller watch.
Quality, always sells and brings a price. Just because sports models took over doesn't reduce the efficacy of these watches ESPECIALLY in THAT condition.
On this model the bezel is KING...and that bezel is NEAR MINT. If it's 18k EVEN rarer because they are softer. Rose gold rarer. Mostly they are polished some or A LOT...and unlike a fluted bezel or a smooth bezel...you can't go back. There is NO fixing it and it's 80 years old. It's not like a Day Date where you just get a take off bezel from a business that ices them out. It's NOT available...PERIOD.

This watch would bring a nice price at a real auction.

[R.W.T.]

The watch if not running very likely STOPPED running due to a broken balance staff...it is not shock resistant and so any hard drop...and it's broken. It might not be but it's likely. If you planned on selling it, it would be a bad idea not to have it attended to before selling it. Most watchmakers today wouldn't work on it and even more of them wouldn't know how. I'm fixing up some other watchmaker's mess on a similar model as we speak. They couldn't figure out how to put it back together...and that was just the beginning of the issues. The point being that anyone who would want to buy it, might literally be scared off if it wasn't serviced unless they were getting a very substantial price reduction. If you aren't going to wear it, not really any benefit to getting it running now. The only problem is...20 years from now..you might find a LOT less people willing to do it and even less who would have a clue as to how to make it work properly.

[Brent P]

Thanks for all the thoughts. If I could categorize them:

1. Service/Don’t service. If serviced, do the absolute minimum to get it running (only replace the organic oil with synthetic - no polish or unnecessary repair).

2. At some point, sell the watch privately or at auction.

Taking these in turn.

1. Service or not? I’m curious, does it make more sense economically NOT to service it? That doesn’t make intuitive sense to me as I would think a working watch would be much more valuable than one whose status was unknown. I have a fairly high confidence level this could be restored with a mere cleaning and oiling, very possibly with no new mainspring or other repair as it occasionally still works. Due to very light use, it seems very likely that gummy oil now that is the issue, possibly the only issue.

I fully understand that the point that if it is serviced it should be the minimum possible to retain collectibility — no polish or other cosmetic alterations. However, some have expressed a view that no servicing at all may make it MORE valuable. As a reminder, to my and my father’s knowledge, this has never been serviced in its nearly 80 year history. Would a simple cleaning and re-oiling actually damage its market value?

2. How would we best go about selling such a watch? I appreciate the private text indication of interests, but we’re really motivated sellers. Possibly, but it seems to me the prices for this particular model are depressed right now. Waiting 2-20 years is not out of the question, and this seems like an important timeline piece. I’ve sold a watch on Chrono24 before and know how to do that, but this watch seems more special and capable of attracting a premium price. Would an auction house like Christies be appropriate? Some other auction like format? How would you sell a piece like this?

One last question, how do I tell if it’s 18 carat vs 12 carat rose gold? If I had to guess I’d guess 18 since it is so deep colored compared to 12 carat gold pieces my wife has, but I know that’s not reliable. Is there some mark to look for? The back is gold if that’s a sign.

Again, thanks for all your thoughts. Much appreciated.

[Brent P]

Here’s what i think I’m hearing both here and talking with a few people elsewhere.

1. If we do have it serviced, we should do the absolute minimum servicing to get/keep it running. Ideally, that would be to replace the organic oils with synthetic only. Some speculate that it may need a new mainspring too, but I’m unsure that will be needed because it does run occasionally. It’s probably just old gummy organic lubricant.

2. Because of the practically unused and near mint condition, it could fetch a high price at auction or in the right forum. We should figure out whether it’s 18K or 14K rose gold, which should be inscribed inside the case. Is there any other practical way to figure that out?

3. Some say it’s best to sell it as is without any servicing. Others say some servicing as described above in 1 should be done for the best price. I’m completely without experience buying or selling any watch this old, but intuitively I’m in the latter camp unless someone can cite convincing reasons otherwise other than the risk of someone messing it up internally, which risk I do understand (and would be born by either the buyer or seller). Given that this watch has been essentially unworn for nearly all its life, I believe there is a very good chance that a cleaning and lubrication would get it operational. So why would I not do that?

As always, I appreciate everyone’s thoughts!

[Dr.Smellody]

Originally Posted by R.W.T.

This watch would bring a nice price at a real auction.

This. Put it up for auction and let those of interested bid on it..

In the mean time, don't mess it up.

[Dan S]

It's in very nice condition, but don't overthink it and get overly excited about potential value, it has a limited audience. You could sell it now for $3k-$4k and maybe if you wait 10 years it will be worth $5k-$6k. The watch will never make you rich, and there's no guarantee that it will increase in price more than the S&P 500. Moreover, it could decrease in value. The idea that very small watches will come back into style is a bit unlikely IMO.

Regarding servicing, if you could absolutely guarantee that the watch would come back from an inexpensive service working well, with no cosmetic damage, that would be nice. Still, I'm guessing you might spend $500-$1000 on the service, and the price might not increase by even that amount. Collectors like barn finds, a watch that has been tampered with is already less interesting. And you will be selling this watch to a collector, it's too small for anyone else. Moreover, any time a watch is touched, there is potential for damage. For example, the watch might come back with a little toolmark on the dial from removing the hands. So the upside is minimal and the risk is significant. Most collectors would prefer to have the watch in its current pristine position, and have control over who works on the watch and what is done to it, instead of having a novice make those decisions.

[Razorsedge1]

Great story and watch. I would figure out a way to get it running and keep it. Good luck!

[Brent P]

“Put it up for auction and let those of us interested bid on it. In the mean time, don't mess it up.”

Good advice. Thanks. If we were to auction it, where is the best place to put it up? I contacted a large auction house beginning with”S” today and they are going to look at pictures of it and give me their thoughts. They advised not to open the case to see whether it is 18K gold, but to do that and any servicing only after their review and under their guidance. They advised not to have it serviced too as that would turn off buyers who would want to buy it unaltered with its story to date intact.

I plan now to recommend to my father that he keep it, but also pursue a sales price estimation by sending pics to “S” and also “C”. I realize there are a few other watches like this out there and a reported sales price history, but I’d not trade this one for literally any of those I see at any price that I can google.

For now, I imagine after all this my father will be interested in S’s advice and will want to keep it for a while, but who knows. It seems like a great piece to keep, possibly sell to someone who really would appreciate it in all its smallness (when did that become bad!), or possibly give or bequeath to a museum.

Thoughts as always appreciated.

[Dan S]

From reading your posts, I doubt that anyone else is going to love it as much as you do. So you might end up being disappointed with an auction result.

[R.W.T.]

PM sent

[woolshire]

So everyone believes that dial is 75-80 yrs old? I need better
photos before pushing the “I believe”

[R.W.T.]

Originally Posted by woolshire

So everyone believes that dial is 75-80 yrs old? I need better
photos before pushing the “I believe”

Being that the quality of the rest of the watch is like it is and that there is ZERO lume on that dial from the factory...yep! I do.

[Brent P]

OK, I just took some high res photos to send off tomorrow to a few people to evaluate, one included here. Photos taken with a Hassleblad X1D-50 at F22 with a 120mm macro lens. No sharpening, no noise reduction or retouching. Only exposure and crop applied.

A few more things about this watch:

* The number engraved between the lugs is 444892. I believe it now to be a model 4448. The 9 and 2, I haven’t yet deciphered.

* My Dad wore it for a brief period of time as a young man. He replaced the original band (and lost the original band and clasp) with a gold colored Spiedel metal band. I removed that band and will not replace it, but will keep it to sell with this story (if we ever do sell). So no original band or clasp to be found. Only the watch itself.

* “GWP” were my grandfathers’ initials and you’ll see that engraved on the back. He was a meaningfully sized regional US retailer and his stores are still around. I don’t know who did the engraving, but it looks well executed for what it is.

Pictures to be resized to fit this forum and posted next.

[Brent P]

Here's some small photos.

[Brent P]

And a few more

[Brent P]

I'm new here, so my text replies seem to be subject to review and not being reviewed timely. Anyways to be sure something gets through with the pictures:

You can see the model number - 4448, with a 92 at the end. Unsure what the 9-2 means, but it's a self winding oyster that apparently was a chronometer at one time.

Grandfather's initials on the back (a significant regional retailer at the time). I'm in my 60s...

No boxes, papers, straps or clasps, but certainly quite authentic and mostly unused.

[greekbum]

That’s an amazing example of this reference

[Mark020]

Absolutely. Wonderful inscription as well

[Fredrik]

The 444892 engraving is the serial number, it puts it in 1946 approx.

I believe the model number would be engraved in the caseback?

[Brent P]

Originally Posted by Fredrik

The 444892 engraving is the serial number, it puts it in 1946 approx.

I believe the model number would be engraved in the caseback?

Thanks for that. The number’s position is at 6 o’clock and checking a few charts I believe your comment is correct. I also googled the watch face picture and it does appear to be a model 3372. If the model number is indicated anywhere, it does not appear on the outside of the watch but I imagine it would be inside the case. I don’t intend to open it up unless for servicing or sale and then by a pro.