How to verify grey market "new" watch is truly new?

[Dave O]

Originally Posted by worldofoyster

there's no such thing as trusted dealers. they are resellers that move watch from one source to the end users, unless you buy the watch from an AD.

Originally Posted by Hollie_Rollie

Amen.


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Simply not true. There is no way that our trusted sellers such as Takuya could stay in business as long as they have if he sold a watch listed as unworn that wasn't, or sold a fake Rolex. He isn't purchasing his watches from some smuck on the street. He and other greys are pretty sophisticated in how they obtain their watches - and they stand behind what they sell. Now if you are using a grey dealer that isn't a trusted dealer, and just buys from anyone then good luck.

Don't get me wrong. My collection consists of 12 watches, all but two purchased from my AD. This is the way I always intend to purchase a new watch. The two I didn't was because there was no other way to obtain the watch I was after other than grey. And I'm confident they were both unworn and authentic as described.

[Jasb]

Originally Posted by worldofoyster

there's no such thing as trusted dealers. they are resellers that move watch from one source to the end users, unless you buy the watch from an AD.

Boom.

[worldofoyster]

Originally Posted by Dave O

Simply not true. There is no way that our trusted sellers such as Takuya could stay in business as long as they have if he sold a watch listed as unworn that wasn't, or sold a fake Rolex. He isn't purchasing his watches from some smuck on the street. He and other greys are pretty sophisticated in how they obtain their watches - and they stand behind what they sell. Now if you are using a grey dealer that isn't a trusted dealer, and just buys from anyone then good luck.

Don't get me wrong. My collection consists of 12 watches, all but two purchased from my AD. This is the way I always intend to purchase a new watch. The two I didn't was because there was no other way to obtain the watch I was after other than grey. And I'm confident they were both unworn and authentic as described.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying all greys are awful. There are absolutely some grey merchants who stand behind their products, weed out fakes, AM parts, and go above and above to achieve what a customer wants. Just that many resellers are in this for money, they don't have a real business, don't stand behind their items, and are solely interested in moving/flipping timepieces

[PenDelicate]

Originally Posted by worldofoyster

Just that many resellers are in this for money

All resellers are in it for the money.

[Hollie_Rollie]

Originally Posted by Dave O

Simply not true. There is no way that our trusted sellers such as Takuya could stay in business as long as they have if he sold a watch listed as unworn that wasn't, or sold a fake Rolex. He isn't purchasing his watches from some smuck on the street. He and other greys are pretty sophisticated in how they obtain their watches - and they stand behind what they sell. Now if you are using a grey dealer that isn't a trusted dealer, and just buys from anyone then good luck.

Don't get me wrong. My collection consists of 12 watches, all but two purchased from my AD. This is the way I always intend to purchase a new watch. The two I didn't was because there was no other way to obtain the watch I was after other than grey. And I'm confident they were both unworn and authentic as described.

Selling watch as unworn when there’s no way to prove that unless the used dealer bought directly from the AD out the back versus selling a fake are 2 totally different things.


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[Zach69SS]

Op as others have mentioned here any piece that is not from the AD is not new, even from the AD it may have been on the famous exhibition only display. They are not going to tell you and they never take the stickers off in front of you, there are some ADs that give to you 100% complete bezel protector and all most ADs don’t.

There is no way to know? It the seller is local to you go see it, if you are good with the condition go for it. Condition is everything in my opinion.

Good luck!

[thatswhatshesaid]

Originally Posted by Dave O

Simply not true. There is no way that our trusted sellers such as Takuya could stay in business as long as they have if he sold a watch listed as unworn that wasn't, or sold a fake Rolex. He isn't purchasing his watches from some smuck on the street. He and other greys are pretty sophisticated in how they obtain their watches - and they stand behind what they sell. Now if you are using a grey dealer that isn't a trusted dealer, and just buys from anyone then good luck.

Don't get me wrong. My collection consists of 12 watches, all but two purchased from my AD. This is the way I always intend to purchase a new watch. The two I didn't was because there was no other way to obtain the watch I was after other than grey. And I'm confident they were both unworn and authentic as described.

Most of the trusted sellers never have a used Rolex for sale that isn't described as 99% or near mint, meaning they polish them. I wouldn't past anyone to lightly touch up a near mint piece and sell it as new.

It's no real crime. Anyone buying a "new" watch that has already had at least 2 owners should expect as much.

[Dave O]

Originally Posted by Hollie_Rollie

Selling watch as unworn when there’s no way to prove that unless the used dealer bought directly from the AD out the back versus selling a fake are 2 totally different things.

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Again, the trusted dealers business is on the line if he is lying about the condition. The trusted dealers wouldn't remain in business if they were lying about their listings. When they say new and unworn they have most likely purchased the watch from one of their mules that purchase it from an AD. I don't think some people understand this concept.

Originally Posted by thatswhatshesaid

Most of the trusted sellers never have a used Rolex for sale that isn't described as 99% or near mint, meaning they polish them. I wouldn't past anyone to lightly touch up a near mint piece and sell it as new.

It's no real crime. Anyone buying a "new" watch that has already had at least 2 owners should expect as much.

Not true. Some of their watches are listed as new/unworn. These watches are most likely obtained as I have outlined above. Ones listed as mint may very well be as you describe above. And they also have some listed as used in great shape, good shape etc. But when a trusted dealer says unworn/new he means it. Too much on the line for him if he lies.

[Tricolore66]

I've had good luck buying from trusted sellers, but I've also traded worn watches that were then apparently stickered up and sold as new by one of them. After seeing that I personally consider anything not sold new by an AD to be a used watch, period. That doesn't mean I won't buy from that seller again, but I'll go in eyes wide open and make sure I can send a watch that rubs me the wrong way back for a full refund.

[daysky1]

Originally Posted by illiguy

Buy the seller. I’d trust our trusted dealers.

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=926833

When you say I trust our trusted dealers does that also include form members that have watches for sale or trade? Is there a length of time a person has to be a member of The Forum before they can start offering for sale or trade? I am the kind of person that tends to lean toward trusting what a person says to me also I'm the kind of person that likes to know the history of the dealer or the person that I might be doing business with.

[L_S_SHOE]

You can’t.

If you’re going Grey, I think you’ve just got to be Ok getting what you get. Pay more attention to the condition of the watch, rather than claims regarding how new it is.

I’ve been told ADs sometimes sell exhibition pieces as new watches, even though they’ve been extensively handled…


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[kopi-c]

Originally Posted by igbgotiz

Here is the situation.

A local reputable grey dealer is selling a "brand new" watch with 2022 warranty card, no stickers.

In this case, how can one tell whether this is actually new or a mint used seeing there's no way to verify.

What should I be checking for?

Check for reviews of this secondary watch seller.

You posted awhile back, did you purchase the watch you wanted?

Also, keep in mind you are buying a used watch no matter what condition it was listed.

A brand new watch only via an authorize dealer (AD). Then, at point of sale warranty is activated/in effect from date of purchase.

[codecow]

One easy method is to ask the dealer to submerge the reference in a large graduated cylinder full of milk. Measure the volume of displaced milk and record this number.

Wash and dry the reference, then measure its mass on an electronic balance.

You can compute the density by mass / volume. Compare the density of this piece to the same measurement on a new reference from the AD. If they match then it’s new and you will also receive good luck for 7 years.

[Jack T]

Originally Posted by igbgotiz

Here is the situation.

A local reputable grey dealer is selling a "brand new" watch with 2022 warranty card, no stickers.

In this case, how can one tell whether this is actually new or a mint used seeing there's no way to verify.

What should I be checking for?

A local reputable grey dealer…oxymoron

[928ktgold]

Originally Posted by Jasb

Heard nothing but good from Jazztime watches, they have a ton of stock.

I got a good price on a new 126500LN black for dad there

[ratty]

Originally Posted by igbgotiz

Here is the situation.

A local reputable grey dealer is selling a "brand new" watch with 2022 warranty card, no stickers.

In this case, how can one tell whether this is actually new or a mint used seeing there's no way to verify.

What should I be checking for?

Define what you mean by “brand new” and “grey dealer”.

[illiguy]

Originally Posted by daysky1

When you say I trust our trusted dealers does that also include form members that have watches for sale or trade? Is there a length of time a person has to be a member of The Forum before they can start offering for sale or trade? I am the kind of person that tends to lean toward trusting what a person says to me also I'm the kind of person that likes to know the history of the dealer or the person that I might be doing business with.

No. I was referring to those sellers that have “boutiques” in the classified section


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[inadeje]

It’s only new from the Rolex AD, the rest is semantics

[Marcjvr]

Originally Posted by PenDelicate

All resellers are in it for the money.

Right…and ADs are in it for the warm fuzzy feeling they get when they put a smile on a new customers face as they march out the store wearing a new luxury watch

[ozwatchguy]

Unless you’re getting it straight from the travel coffin onto your wrist? I’ve heard now from ADs you have to pay in full and the watch must go in exhibition for 2-4 which I’m sure they’ll let people try it on!

I say as long as your happy with the price and it’s in as “new” condition and hasn’t been polished, go for it!

Not that I’ve got anything against a watch being polished, as long as it hasn’t been polished and then being sold as “new” condition


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[IS2000]

I’ve seen people wearing Rolexes and a pink Tudor chrono in the wild with most stickers still on. They will probably end up as NOS examples at grey dealers.

[worldofoyster]

Originally Posted by IS2000

I’ve seen people wearing Rolexes and a pink Tudor chrono in the wild with most stickers still on. They will probably end up as NOS examples at grey dealers.

that's wild, but sadly true

[thatswhatshesaid]

Originally Posted by Dave O

Again, the trusted dealers business is on the line if he is lying about the condition. The trusted dealers wouldn't remain in business if they were lying about their listings. When they say new and unworn they have most likely purchased the watch from one of their mules that purchase it from an AD. I don't think some people understand this concept.



Not true. Some of their watches are listed as new/unworn. These watches are most likely obtained as I have outlined above. Ones listed as mint may very well be as you describe above. And they also have some listed as used in great shape, good shape etc. But when a trusted dealer says unworn/new he means it. Too much on the line for him if he lies.

I'm afraid your position is a bit naive. Without going into details, there is plenty of evidence from members here that you are incorrect.

[Mountains868]

If you are not buying directly from AD, then you are surely taking a high risk with such purchase. It’s almost impossible to tell if a watch is new and never been worn.

[Dave O]

Originally Posted by thatswhatshesaid

I'm afraid your position is a bit naive. Without going into details, there is plenty of evidence from members here that you are incorrect.

Your definition and my definition of a trusted dealer must be different. If you use a trusted dealer as listed on TRF you are pretty much safe. Even if for some some unknown reason there was a mix up, our trusted dealers would take care of you and make it right. The members you speak of with "plenty of evidence" were most likely not purchasing from our TRF trusted dealers. If I'm wrong, show me a post where one of our trusted dealers sold a watch listed as unworn that was not and did not make it right.

As I mentioned earlier, the vast majority of my watches are new from an AD. Only two are not. And when I purchased those, I had detailed conversations with the dealer regarding how can I be certain his listing is accurate. He stated he does millions of dollars of sales each year. His business is built on his reputation, and he's not going to risk that reputation by trying to sell a used watch as new/unworn.