Why choose 5204P over 5270P or 5970P?

[FrançoisCzapek]

People upgrading to a Patek perpetual chronograph (let's assume a preference for platinum, if possible) generally talk about the 5270P or 5970P as their grail. However, the 5204P is the more technically complex reference given its split second chronograph, and there is no perpetual calendar equivalent of the 5960P with its flyback chronograph.

I'm trying to understand why people generally prefer the 5270P or 5970P. Is it because these have a more classic and more mass appealing aesthetic, where the 5204P would be more appreciated by someone particular about the complication over the overall aesthetic?

Would anyone pick the 5204P as their perpetual chronograph upgrade grail, and why?

[Vasco]

Interesting discussion. There are a few reasons I see.

Mainly, the price is significantly different (more than 100K), hence a more affordable 5270/5970 vs 5204/5004.

Most clients don't value the mechanical difference (Split-second mechanism), it's not very visible on the movement side if you don't go deep in the tech. Hence, you have most of the mechanical appeal already available in a 5270/5970.

The 5270/5970 echo Patek's past with the original 1518/2499. The split-second pieces were very very rare.

That's why going into watches takes time and why people may after a long while come to more complicated watches. Some don't know the difference between an automatic and a manual-wound chronograph. What does a Column wheel bring? What is the difference between a vertical and a horizontal clutch chronograph?

Hence, people don't understand, at the beginning of their watch journey, why the price differences, hence why should I make such effort for something I see equivalent.

Of course, the fact we see more of any model on internet, favors its fame.

There are differences in complexity, in finishing skill or rarity. Hence, to each client to decide if they think it's worth it, if they want to make the additional financial effort.

[FrançoisCzapek]

Definitely understand this, but then why don't veteran watch collectors champion the 5204P more than 5270/5970P?

Also, is 5204P arguably the most complicated complication generally available, outside a very niche, limited or custom model?

[GeraldGentaFan]

Veteran watch collectors prefer the 5004 over the 5204. 5004 is a real collector favorite.

Same reasons as most collectors prefer the 5970 over the 5270.

[FrançoisCzapek]

But I thought the 5204 has some distinct mechanical and aesthetic improvements over the 5004, much more than 5270 over 5970?

Or would this be a bias for a younger buyer, who would be less keen on a 36mm like the 5004?

[GeraldGentaFan]

5004 definitely wears more like 37/38mm, a size many collectors including myself really like. A DJ36 is to small for me but a 5004 works.

There is a general collector preference for the old Lemania movement, and the new inhouse Patek movement is superior on many fronts, but not loved. I also believe that aesthetically, 5004 and 5970 are clearly superior to 5204 and 5270.

I have the 5004, 5970 and 5270. Do I like the 5204? Definitely. Is it a must have for me? No. My personal ranking is 5970, 5004, 5270, 5204. 5970 is just the perfect size for me. 5004 a bit small. And 5270/5204 a bit big.

[FrançoisCzapek]

And I suspect millennial buyers may approach the size the opposite way!

[Vasco]

Originally Posted by FrançoisCzapek

Definitely understand this, but then why don't veteran watch collectors champion the 5204P more than 5270/5970P?

Also, is 5204P arguably the most complicated complication generally available, outside a very niche, limited or custom model?

I agree with GGFan and would add that it's also a generational matter, the older watch fans usually tend to go for the 5004/5970 whereas younger ones tend to like the newest versions. Aesthetical, size reasons... More in link with the fact that they experienced their watch evolution together with the 3970/5004 than the newer 5270/5170.

But the size also comes into play as it's subjective and depends on what our eyes were used to seeing but also compared to the wrist's size. Some don't like the 5270's bigger case (41, hence +1 versus the more complicated 5204) and others don't like the small 5004 (36.5mm!).

The 5204 is the most complicated chronograph (aside of the Advanced Research one). However, until recently the 5959 Split-second was maybe the most complicated one because of its size. It was a Split-second-only reference but very small (33mm case). Let's remember that watchmaking, since the pocket watches was also about downsizing watches to put them comfortably on a wrist. Hence, the smaller, the more refined it was. The 5959 was the thinnest Split-second chronograph ever created from what I read. Launched in 2005, the 27-525 was their very first in-house chronograph (Split-Second). More skill required to miniaturize mechanisms. But this has changed very recently, people even asking for movements to "fill the case". Which can seem contradictory.

As a reminder, the 5070/5970/5004 are Lemania-based chronographs whereas the 5170/5270/5204 are the first ones receiving the new "in-house" 29-535 caliber.

The 29-535 is improving in many areas, in a simple and clever way. Not complex to be complex; trap others tend to fall in with often much bigger sizes. However, the Lemania-based one was a charming (aesthetically) and very important caliber for that period (hand finishing, accuracy...), which was successfully brought up during a tough period (80's) with the launch of the 3970 in 1986 (?) and the future 1989 celebrations. It was an important era for Patek, thanks to Philippe Stern.

People sometimes wonder why Patek is Patek, this area is definitely a part of the whole picture.

[Crazywis]

When bringing up caliber 27-525, and price being no bar, I'd throw ref 5372P and 5373P into the mix with the 5004 and 5204.

[FrançoisCzapek]

Beautiful. Very good reminder.

Would love to see people who own more than one of these post comparison pics on wrist!

[bobernet]

The 5204 looks clunky compared to the 5270 or 5370 (or 5970).

It is really thick. Hockey puck thick. The upside down moonphase is a turn off to me. The squished date numerals is a turn off. It has the hated “chin.” I prefer the flat pushers to the pump pushers. The movement is awesome; the presentation, I don’t like.

That’s why I bought a 5270 and a 5370 instead of a 5204.

[KBM]

This is a discussion that could be approached either with a very simple “matter of aesthetic preference” or a detailed technical discussion on the merits of each of the references you mentioned.

There seems to be no doubt of the of high complications prowess embodied in the perpetual calendar split second chronograph caliber. A rattrapante is among the most ingenious complications in horology and listed alongside minute repeaters as the most difficult to execute. For chronograph lovers, it’s the epitome of watchmaking.

Objectively, there is a remarkable difference in the movement side as well, much beyond the technical aspect. The level of finishing executed by Patek in the caliber of the 5204 is simply on a completely different playing field. Not to mention the tridimensionality of the caliber - which is also double assembled, not the case for the 5270 and 5970.

Dial aesthetics are a matter of personal preference, of course. For me, the combination of platinum, black dial and lumed markers and hands give this piece a sporty edge that is rarely seen in these high grand complications. The watch is not slim, but the 40mm size keeps it very manageable (and much better balanced than the 5004, at 36mm with the same thickness).

I love the 5270, especially in its G configuration with a blue dial and salmon P. But the 5204, to me, is in an entirely different league.

Cheers!

[Demonoid]

Here’s a comparison for you. Not the 5270 but the 5070. 5370 and 5204.




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[FrançoisCzapek]

I've actually reread this thread a few times now.

So if you're thinking in terms of grails and aspirations and you hope to get a split second chronograph perpetual (and not "just" a chronograph perpetual) one day, which is the model to aim for? Assume you're a little younger and gravitate more to 39-41 mm.

And then what's the best way to buy it given they do not appear every week? Just keep an eye on usual gray channels, especially those sold locally in your city?

Honestly still trying to put together all the advice on movements, aesthetics, mechanical intricacy, and history.

[KBM]

Originally Posted by FrançoisCzapek

I've actually reread this thread a few times now.

So if you're thinking in terms of grails and aspirations and you hope to get a split second chronograph perpetual (and not "just" a chronograph perpetual) one day, which is the model to aim for? Assume you're a little younger and gravitate more to 39-41 mm.

And then what's the best way to buy it given they do not appear every week? Just keep an eye on usual gray channels, especially those sold locally in your city?

Honestly still trying to put together all the advice on movements, aesthetics, mechanical intricacy, and history.

Take your time; these decisions are supposed to have a long term impact in our collections, so it's best to look at it from every angle before coming to a conclusion of what works best *for you*.

Having said that, I feel the 5204 is much more balanced than the 5004. A 36mm watch with 14mm thickness such as the 5004 is simply off in its proportions, in my opinion. To illustrate, some years ago there was a common argument against the original Datograph, stating it wore like a "hockey puck", because it was 13mm tall and "only" 39mm in diameter. Now imagine raising the height and shrinking the diameter by 3mm.

It's also worth noting that it's useful to try to hear perspectives from owners of these pieces. It's hard to share the feeling of how a watch actually wears without having spent time - weeks, months, years, not minutes - with it on the wrist. On my research prior to acquiring the 5204p, I often came across the "collectors prefer the 5004" argument, but it was never made by someone who actually owned one. It seems to be one of those mantras that are just repeated in the Patek world. My advice on that would be to try both watches on (no easy task, I know) and make an effort to get as much of a feeling on your wrist as you can for each one. In the end, all that matters is how they wear on you.

On the actual purchase question, unless you have unlimited funds and/or are looking to build a purchase history that gets you sports pieces, I would look for a 5204 in the market. Reach out to a seller you trust and let that person guide you in the process. They will make a fee, of course, but the expert support is crucial in a purchase of this caliber. For me, it was an easy choice, as the exact version of the 5204 I wanted had been out of production for several years, leaving me no other option than seeking one out in the market.

It may take a while, but I assure you, it’s very much worth enjoying the journey.

[Vasco]

Always such beautiful shirts and wrist shots KBM :)

[FrançoisCzapek]

Lovely! Could I ask what your wrist size is?

For this one, I'm not even thinking about the collection, just the piece by itself!

[KBM]

Originally Posted by Vasco

Always such beautiful shirts and wrist shots KBM :)

Thank you for the kind words, my friend.

[KBM]

Originally Posted by FrançoisCzapek

Lovely! Could I ask what your wrist size is?

For this one, I'm not even thinking about the collection, just the piece by itself!

Of course, it’s 17cm (6.7”).

Yes, I understand the importance of a choice like this, having gone through the process myself. As I mentioned, take your time and be sure to savor the journey!

[Chiboy]

What a great read, and beautiful watches! This is why I like the Patek sub-forum so much. You'd never read such an "all wheat, no chaff" thread in the Rolex section.

[FrançoisCzapek]

Originally Posted by KBM

Of course, it’s 17cm (6.7”).

Ah, my wrist is almost 8", and every AD SA mentions I'd do well to focus on 40 mm watches.

[FrançoisCzapek]

Originally Posted by GeraldGentaFan

My personal ranking is 5970, 5004, 5270, 5204.

Where do you place the 5732, GGFan?

[Tonski74]

Originally Posted by Vasco

Always such beautiful shirts and wrist shots KBM :)

I agree… very elegant photos:)


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[FrançoisCzapek]

was hoping to include the 5732P into the discussion

[bobernet]

Originally Posted by FrançoisCzapek

was hoping to include the 5732P into the discussion

You mean the 5372 monopusher? I’ve never handled one in person.

[mooty]

Originally Posted by FrançoisCzapek

Definitely understand this, but then why don't veteran watch collectors champion the 5204P more than 5270/5970P?

Also, is 5204P arguably the most complicated complication generally available, outside a very niche, limited or custom model?

I have all three
5204 cost more
5204 is smaller than 5270 some pref larger
5204 has a flipped moon that really bothers some collectors
5204 hands and hour marker are lured which to me is not kosher for classical time piece (that's just me)
but the movement is amazing

5270 was unloved until recently, I am not sure why sudden popularity.

5970 has right size and some hype. few years ago, It was sought after but not liek today's prices. once its' talked about all bets are off

5004 for example I bought platinum aroudn 200, no one talked about this piece literally no one. look at it today.... suddenly it's a grail bc it got discussed.

many say 5970 has great design, my P is EXTREMELY hard to read. but I can read black dial 5004, 5204 no problem so while I have 5970 I don't undestand why is so popular. I would take 5004 over it any way

btw 5004 and 5204 is tougher, the movement in 5204 is way better. I wear, bang and use the chrono literally non stop. I mean my AD are more worried than I am with my watches. 5204 never have issues. 5004, I tried 11 of them I will make it malfunction in 3 tries... don't worry you can reset it easily. but this is a known issues. some care some don't. some say once 'FIXED' at factory it's ok, NO its not. same issue (start, split, stop, start again ... at this juncture only one second hand shoudl move but both will now move 25% the time) this happens on 5959 as well. I have done this over 100x on many 5004... I stopped worrying but some ppl cant get over it.

for ref my wrist is 6.5" with flat top
I also prefer small watches
it's best if you can try them on. some will sing to you some wont

[mooty]

Originally Posted by FrançoisCzapek

But I thought the 5204 has some distinct mechanical and aesthetic improvements over the 5004, much more than 5270 over 5970?

Or would this be a bias for a younger buyer, who would be less keen on a 36mm like the 5004?

250 GTB is not as good as pista
but it's WAY more coveted.

[FrançoisCzapek]

Originally Posted by mooty

I have all three
5204 cost more
5204 is smaller than 5270 some pref larger
5204 has a flipped moon that really bothers some collectors
5204 hands and hour marker are lured which to me is not kosher for classical time piece (that's just me)
but the movement is amazing

5270 was unloved until recently, I am not sure why sudden popularity.

5970 has right size and some hype. few years ago, It was sought after but not liek today's prices. once its' talked about all bets are off

5004 for example I bought platinum aroudn 200, no one talked about this piece literally no one. look at it today.... suddenly it's a grail bc it got discussed.

many say 5970 has great design, my P is EXTREMELY hard to read. but I can read black dial 5004, 5204 no problem so while I have 5970 I don't undestand why is so popular. I would take 5004 over it any way

btw 5004 and 5204 is tougher, the movement in 5204 is way better. I wear, bang and use the chrono literally non stop. I mean my AD are more worried than I am with my watches. 5204 never have issues. 5004, I tried 11 of them I will make it malfunction in 3 tries... don't worry you can reset it easily. but this is a known issues. some care some don't. some say once 'FIXED' at factory it's ok, NO its not. same issue (start, split, stop, start again ... at this juncture only one second hand shoudl move but both will now move 25% the time) this happens on 5959 as well. I have done this over 100x on many 5004... I stopped worrying but some ppl cant get over it.

for ref my wrist is 6.5" with flat top
I also prefer small watches
it's best if you can try them on. some will sing to you some wont

Thanks! This is very comprehensive feedback. But then how does 5372p compare?

[vecca]

Such a great read... Thank you all for your contributions.

I have recently stumbled upon the 5370. It's a beautiful watch, and is in the same ballpark (relatively speaking) as the 5970 and 5204.

Do you have an opinion when comparing those three? (I can only buy one)

[mooty]

Originally Posted by FrançoisCzapek

Thanks! This is very comprehensive feedback. But then how does 5372p compare?

5372 is a very complicated watch. I like the case size. but my eyes don't like the subdial at 6 clock being squeezed. most of PP's PCC have bigger subdial at 6 and small subdials at 3 & 9.

I also do not like the moonphase at 12.

for ME I prefer the traditional placement of the moon at 6