Antagonist view :: Patek is in worse position compared to AP

[messikens]

Ok so hear my theory out why PP is in a worse market position vs AP at the moment (and notwithstanding the legacy chops of being THE brand):

1. While PP/TS pretended that it didn't want to become the nautilus company, effectively it had been that way for 6+ years at this point, where most purchases were propping up the desire to get one or more Naut/Aqua allocations eventually while taking a hit

2. Most true halo pieces (chime, handpaint, grand comp) are so expensive and so far out from a customer perspective that their relevance is diminished

3. The large in between in the catalogue is both WAY more expensive for MSRP and WAY discounted vs AP in the secondary market

4. Therefore TS really only had the option of creating a fake proxy halo watch (that is $10k more expensive than the Naut - mainly to get people getting used to the inflated MSRPs for all their other watches) while further reducing supply of the true Halo Naut watch... Both in order to ensure people buy their "take a terrible hit immediately" in-between catalogue pieces

While AP I would venture has by and large more "desirable" regular models and more palatable prices and the MSRP hit is not as pronounced as PP for most of them


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[cascavel]

I don't see it. PP still has the Aquanaut line and the 5811 along with whatever other Nautilus they still make. The Cubitus will sell out without any problem.
AP has an old and limited product line that new collectors like and older collectors already have.

[1William]

Maybe. I have never been a fan of PP or AP for varying reasons but do acknowledge them as good brands. My AD is a PP AD and it is funny to watch the preening owners and buyers of the brand. I go to most, if not all, of the events at the AD and I always enjoy the PP events for the comic relief of interacting with the owners and fans of the brand. The arrogance of PP starts with Mr. Stern and transcends down the line. I believe PP will be sold in the near future to LVMH or the like and we will then see a much different company. Maybe better but probably not. AP has done well chasing the dollar and are basically a one trick company with some variation.

[John Doyle]

With AP, my 15400 is enough - i don't need to buy anything else. Maybe a Code if they really come up with a great dial / complication that is not uber expensive (maybe smaller size too). Wish they still had the millenary / jules audemars lines so they could experiment with them.

With PP, you truly have countless models you could aspire to purchase, which really look different. The chase is more than half the fun in watch acquisition so I don't mind waiting while trying to save up for the next big purchase I plan, regardless of the delta between the sports models / complications and grand complications. Again it's a just a watch, if i'm not happy, i can take my business elsewhere.

[APhound]

I don’t think they’re a nautilus company.. I have a 5711 as well as a 5968 and 5164r- awesome watches- but nothing compared to the real watches.


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[Gelateria]

Crazy take saying AP has a larger desirable regular models.
As shitty as TS is, the classics and complication models from patek comfortably exceed what ap has.
Hell, Ap doesn't even have a classic and basic dress watch

[APhound]

I think AP does a great job of keeping their line exciting. I’ve never gotten bored and love 95% of what they do. Love the brand and love wearing their watches.
Both PP and AP know what they’re doing, they’re the top 2 period.



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[NYG1121]

AP is a one trick pony. PP is not. We should really appreciate that otherwise things would be very boring.

[codecow]

Originally Posted by APhound

I think AP does a great job of keeping their line exciting. I’ve never gotten bored and love 95% of what they do. Love the brand and love wearing their watches.
Both PP and AP know what they’re doing, they’re the top 2 period.



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Hah I have been debating trading out some Patek and Rolex I have in the safe for that exact reference.

[APhound]

Originally Posted by codecow

Hah I have been debating trading out some Patek and Rolex I have in the safe for that exact reference.

I traded three watches for it. You should do it. It’s incredible. Just do it


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[ChetBaker]

I rate VC more than AP. I wish they’d kill the Code and get back to making proper dress watches.

[Pfang56]

Originally Posted by messikens

Ok so hear my theory out why PP is in a worse market position vs AP at the moment (and notwithstanding the legacy chops of being THE brand):

1. While PP/TS pretended that it didn't want to become the nautilus company, effectively it had been that way for 6+ years at this point, where most purchases were propping up the desire to get one or more Naut/Aqua allocations eventually while taking a hit

2. Most true halo pieces (chime, handpaint, grand comp) are so expensive and so far out from a customer perspective that their relevance is diminished

3. The large in between in the catalogue is both WAY more expensive for MSRP and WAY discounted vs AP in the secondary market

4. Therefore TS really only had the option of creating a fake proxy halo watch (that is $10k more expensive than the Naut - mainly to get people getting used to the inflated MSRPs for all their other watches) while further reducing supply of the true Halo Naut watch... Both in order to ensure people buy their "take a terrible hit immediately" in-between catalogue pieces

While AP I would venture has by and large more "desirable" regular models and more palatable prices and the MSRP hit is not as pronounced as PP for most of them


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Patek and AP collector here...

Objectively you are probably right - very simply, AP recently surpassed Patek in terms of annual turnover. And this was not because of selling more volume - in fact, AP somehow is selling less volume and delivering a higher annual turnover than PP. And, this is despite PP offering a wider and much higher priced range than AP. What happened here?

I do think AP's management has done a much better job with the business, which is part of the reason why they exceeded PP in turnover. Cutting out the middleman, consolidating points of sale, having more direct customer relation management are just good business decisions that probably has increased their margin, elevated their supply and inventory control,
and enabled them to have a way better understanding of customers.

It's not a surprise PP and Rolex are following suit by cutting dealer networks, increasing direct boutiques, and improving direct customer engagements. PP and Rolex is following AP's leadership and strategy here - and I am really thankful for it. It hopefully can elevate the entire customer relationship experience, improve exclusivity, and take away bad actors.

So yes, from a business perspective, AP is in a much better business and market position than PP. In the end, AP recently surpassed PP in turnover, despite not producing as much as PP. Kudos to AP.

As for my subjective feedback - I am definitely not a Cubitus supporter. It was just a bad business and brand decision to discontinue the 5711, and then seemingly replace it with the Cubitus. If Patek kept the 5711, then I would totally understand the decision to add the Cubitus - but the fact that this is positioned as a *replacement* to the 5711 is just a dumb decision. Like if Porsche and the Piech family decided to discontinue the 911 and create a new line with some controversial styling. Or if Hermes and the Dumas family discontinued the Birkin and replaced it with something more modern. It would just be bad decision making!

And, it's a real shame as the Nautilus will have its 50th anniversary in two years!!! Maybe there is a plan to re-launch it?


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[ikoh76]

Originally Posted by Gelateria

Crazy take saying AP has a larger desirable regular models.
As shitty as TS is, the classics and complication models from patek comfortably exceed what ap has.
Hell, Ap doesn't even have a classic and basic dress watch

I'd argue there are exquisite pieces in Edward Piguet line...

[pam66]

Originally Posted by John Doyle

With AP, my 15400 is enough - i don't need to buy anything else. Maybe a Code if they really come up with a great dial / complication that is not uber expensive (maybe smaller size too). Wish they still had the millenary / jules audemars lines so they could experiment with them.

With PP, you truly have countless models you could aspire to purchase, which really look different. The chase is more than half the fun in watch acquisition so I don't mind waiting while trying to save up for the next big purchase I plan, regardless of the delta between the sports models / complications and grand complications. Again it's a just a watch, if i'm not happy, i can take my business elsewhere.

well, except there is no chase after any PP other than nautilus or aquanaut. if ADs don't want to sell to you you find under retail easily. literally, PP has become the nautilus/aquanaut company, the rest of the collection sells as bait for those two lines.

[so nice]

AP just annihilates PP

[huncho]

Originally Posted by pam66

well, except there is no chase after any PP other than nautilus or aquanaut. if ADs don't want to sell to you you find under retail easily. literally, PP has become the nautilus/aquanaut company, the rest of the collection sells as bait for those two lines.

yeah have to agree, it's really telling when you rarely see any patek outside of the nautilus/aquanaut on celebs/athletes. if they're wearing watches on straps it's usually some cartier or RM

my hot take is that most of patek's complications/dress watches are just too big. also doesn't help that we're trending towards smaller watches now, especially when it comes to dressier watches, because of the huge cartier craze that started this year

you can just scroll through this page on instagram and see that it's mostly all nautilus when it comes to patek
https://www.instagram.com/insaneluxurylife/

[pam66]

Originally Posted by huncho

yeah have to agree, it's really telling when you rarely see any patek outside of the nautilus/aquanaut on celebs/athletes. if they're wearing watches on straps it's usually some cartier or RM

my hot take is that most of patek's complications/dress watches are just too big. also doesn't help that we're trending towards smaller watches now, especially when it comes to dressier watches, because of the huge cartier craze that started this year

you can just scroll through this page on instagram and see that it's mostly all nautilus when it comes to patek
https://www.instagram.com/insaneluxurylife/

yeah except mark wahlberg, who has all watches of the universe:::)))

[huncho]

Originally Posted by pam66

yeah except mark wahlberg, who has all watches of the universe:::)))

yeah already had the cubitus earlier this week lol