32xx movement problem poll and data thread

[HiBoost]

Originally Posted by LNGSD43

I bought a brand new SD43 in 2019. Was -2 spd out of the box, stayed that way for about a year then dropped to -6 to -8 spd. Worn every day and left in various positions overnight with no noticeable difference in accuracy. Sent to RSC (UK) where they had it for the best part of 5 months. I’ve had it back a week and it runs around +0.25 spd regardless of resting position as far as I can tell. As expected no explanation given but I hope I’m late enough to this party that my watch now has a permanent fix. I guess time will tell unless someone knows what Rolex now do to address this problem?

Nobody knows, or at least nobody here. 5 months is a crazy amount of time, must have been more than a regulation haha. Please let us know how it goes down the road.

[Driver8]

Originally Posted by padi56

And would expect he is a more sensible Rolex owner like around 98% of Rolex owners, who just wear there watches and have no need of todays timegraphers etc.

Sorry, I know I shouldn't bite, but..... I just can't subscribe to the "just wear it no matter what the timekeeping is like" school of thought. You don't need a timegrapher (and nor do I own one) to tell if your watch is losing multiple seconds a day. Since my own SD43 is currently losing 10 seconds a day, I can very easily see that when I'm 5 mins late for meetings/trains/flights etc, at the end of a typical month.

When people are losing upwards of 20 to 30 seconds a day it quickly renders a watch as little more than a decorative bracelet - an expensive piece of costume jewellery. Losing 20 to 30 secs a day means you're off by 10 to 15 mins at the end of a typical month.

We may as well just pull the crown out and know that our watches are right twice a day!

[LNGSD43]

Will keep you posted. Would’ve been 4 months but they found a mark on the dial at quality control and had to order a new dial from Switzerland. I’m surprised I was told as much but they’re quite helpful if you call the RSC directly, in UK at least. Let you know how it goes.

[saxo3]

Poll Question: Does your 32xx movement seem to be 100% ok?

Present situation:
Answers: 277
183 'YES' (66 %)
94 'NO' (34 %)

Different participants with posts: 77 (28 %)
Voting people without any post: 200 (72 %)

The majority of people who have voted 'YES' did not participate in the thread.
Unclear if they read the thread or just don't care and voted 'YES'.

The question who are the more sensible Rolex owners remains to be answered.

[HiBoost]

^ Good recap.

And though I agree completely that "all movements have issues" I find it a bit hard to imagine that if we put up a "31xx poll thread" that in 10 days we'd have 100 users claiming they hit a timekeeping problem. 100 people, on one forum, who happened to see the thread, and bothered to participate, is way beyond the "one in a million" conjecture we heard early on. In my mind it doesn't even matter what the real % is - because clearly there are unrepresented people in the "no issues" category - it shouldn't be this easy to find a group of 100 people having hit a problem on such a high end instrument.

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Poll Question: Does your 32xx movement seem to be 100% ok?

Present situation:
Answers: 277
183 'YES' (66 %)
94 'NO' (34 %)

Different participants with posts: 77 (28 %)
Voting people without any post: 200 (72 %)

The majority of people who have voted 'YE'S did not participate in the thread.
Unclear if they read the thread or just don't care and voted 'YES'.

The question who are the more sensible Rolex owners remains to be answered.

I would submit these results are entirely understandable, if a person is not having any issues with their 3235, then why bother to take the time to post a reply? What will they say? "My 3235 doesn't have issues?" They are saying that by voting. On the other hand, people that DO have issues, it makes perfect sense they would want to post the specifics, I.e it is 10 seconds off, or 1 minute etc. I do not believe someone would just vote because they "do not care" Are you implying the data is skewed and biased?

[Nicolamilton]

There's still many negationists, but at this stage the real poll should be:
Has the issue in your 32xx already appeared?
-Yes
-Not yet

[LNGSD43]

Something I can add about my experience. (Problem appeared after a year, now returned from RSC). I always thought, even from new, my SD43 felt a bit “gritty” and rough when manually winding. It was noticeably noisier than my 116600 (something I’ve read numerous times from others too.) Since it’s return from RSC the winding is buttery smooth and the watch is silent. Significant? Who knows?

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

I would submit these results are entirely understandable, if a person is not having any issues with their 3235, then why bother to take the time to post a reply? What will they say? "My 3235 doesn't have issues?" They are saying that by voting. On the other hand, people that DO have issues, it makes perfect sense they would want to post the specifics, I.e it is 10 seconds off, or 1 minute etc. I do not believe someone would just vote because they "do not care" Are you implying the data is skewed and biased?

It’s a crusade Paul Let it run its course.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

^ Good recap.

And though I agree completely that "all movements have issues" I find it a bit hard to imagine that if we put up a "31xx poll thread" that in 10 days we'd have 100 users claiming they hit a timekeeping problem. 100 people, on one forum, who happened to see the thread, and bothered to participate, is way beyond the "one in a million" conjecture we heard early on. In my mind it doesn't even matter what the real % is - because clearly there are unrepresented people in the "no issues" category - it shouldn't be this easy to find a group of 100 people having hit a problem on such a high end instrument.

I'll vote in your 31xx thread
As I currently have two watches with the movement do I get two votes?

As a heads up, I would say i have had no problems for nearly 10 years on one of them with one needed service under it's belt as a daily wearer and the other for around 6 years as an occassional.
Both have been rock solid timekeepers the entire time at about -2.5 to -3 seconds per day regardless.
Sadly I won't be engaging in the timeographer aspect as they both run good enough for me though a bit closer to 0 seconds per day or slightly faster at +1 would be nice.
No appreciable variation in positional timekeeping to be reported to cancel out the slightly slow rate.

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by brandrea

It’s a crusade Paul Let it run its course.

Ahhh.... Now I get it.

[Tritto]

Originally Posted by Driver8

Sorry, I know I shouldn't bite, but..... I just can't subscribe to the "just wear it no matter what the timekeeping is like" school of thought. You don't need a timegrapher (and nor do I own one) to tell if your watch is losing multiple seconds a day. Since my own SD43 is currently losing 10 seconds a day, I can very easily see that when I'm 5 mins late for meetings/trains/flights etc, at the end of a typical month.

When people are losing upwards of 20 to 30 seconds a day it quickly renders a watch as little more than a decorative bracelet - an expensive piece of costume jewellery. Losing 20 to 30 secs a day means you're off by 10 to 15 mins at the end of a typical month.

We may as well just pull the crown out and know that our watches are right twice a day!

One could suggest that most Rolex (and luxury watches generally) are little more than expensive costume jewellery, regardless of their timekeeping.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[francis]

Originally Posted by Driver8

Sorry, I know I shouldn't bite, but..... I just can't subscribe to the "just wear it no matter what the timekeeping is like" school of thought. You don't need a timegrapher (and nor do I own one) to tell if your watch is losing multiple seconds a day. Since my own SD43 is currently losing 10 seconds a day, I can very easily see that when I'm 5 mins late for meetings/trains/flights etc, at the end of a typical month.

When people are losing upwards of 20 to 30 seconds a day it quickly renders a watch as little more than a decorative bracelet - an expensive piece of costume jewellery. Losing 20 to 30 secs a day means you're off by 10 to 15 mins at the end of a typical month.

We may as well just pull the crown out and know that our watches are right twice a day!

Agreed.. I am by no means anal when it comes to my watches. I wear em and forget about em. That was until this DJ starting losing 30 seconds a day. That becomes an issue after a week or so. To put it in context, I have owned a dozen Rolex watches in my life and none had this issue. Not one. In fact I have owned probably 40 automatic/mechanical watches in my life and none of them have done this. Not even my Vostok;)

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by padi56

And would expect he is a more sensible Rolex owner like around 98% of Rolex owners, who just wear there watches and have no need of todays timegraphers etc.

he'll be 2 mins late to a meeting one day and then be like wtf rolex. make a proper movement.

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by francis

Agreed.. I am by no means anal when it comes to my watches. I wear em and forget about em. That was until this DJ starting losing 30 seconds a day. That becomes an issue after a week or so. To put it in context, I have owned a dozen Rolex watches in my life and none had this issue. Not one. In fact I have owned probably 40 automatic/mechanical watches in my life and none of them have done this. Not even my Vostok;)

This, I check my watches here and there but i'm not nuts about it. I got worried about my DJ when i picked up the watch after the weekend and it was 2 mins behind.

During the first year of it's life the watch only lost about 3 seconds over the weekend when i took it off Friday evening and picked it up Monday morning.

Edit: and like you, first watch out of omegas, Nomoses, Tissots, GS to do this...

[saxo3]

Good News

126600 Sea-Dweller Comparison before/after repair by Rolex

Measured rates and amplitudes after full caliber winding

See also post #432. Update following several messages asking for data in different positions

[saxo3]

All posts (about 25) in the period from 07 to 12 February 2021 are lost, contributions to the poll also.

[Ihatecheese]

These stats are unfortunately useless. We all know that people interact far more weighted if they have issues, than not. Also the weighting of people on the forum will be far more obsessive about seconds per day deviations then a regular purchaser who yet again wouldn’t comment or care .

This poll just shows that 25 people *may* own a watch where they had issues. No meaningful conclusions can be raised unless you know how many total watches there were. It could be 1 in 100k failover rate, for example.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Ihatecheese

These stats are unfortunately useless. We all know that people interact far more weighted if they have issues, than not. Also the weighting of people on the forum will be far more obsessive about seconds per day deviations then a regular purchaser who yet again wouldn’t comment or care .

This poll just shows that 25 people *may* own a watch where they had issues. No meaningful conclusions can be raised unless you know how many total watches there were. It could be 1 in 100k failover rate, for example.

Many thans for your participation!

I fully share your view described in the first paragraph, also that one can draw near-to-zero conclusions from the poll.
Anyhow, the OP had very good intentions.

But your statement "....*may* own a watch where they had issues" is not correct or not well written.

Do you own one watch with a 32xx caliber?
If yes, which and when did you purchase it?

[peterskinner]

You could have a poll asking how many forum members have their enjoyment of their watch spoilt by an obsession with minor deviations in timekeeping. It’s a mechanical watch worn in real world conditions...physics will do the rest,

[padi56]

Originally Posted by peterskinner

You could have a poll asking how many forum members have their enjoyment of their watch spoilt by an obsession with minor deviations in timekeeping. It’s a mechanical watch worn in real world conditions...physics will do the rest,

Have to agree on that one, things like loupes and the rest of todays toys can and often will be a Rolex owners worst enemy. Life's to short to worry and fret over perhaps a few seconds either way out of the first tested environment controlled machine spec at Rolex factory.

[HiBoost]

Originally Posted by Ihatecheese

These stats are unfortunately useless. We all know that people interact far more weighted if they have issues, than not. Also the weighting of people on the forum will be far more obsessive about seconds per day deviations then a regular purchaser who yet again wouldn’t comment or care .

This poll just shows that 25 people *may* own a watch where they had issues. No meaningful conclusions can be raised unless you know how many total watches there were. It could be 1 in 100k failover rate, for example.

Sorry, I completely disagree. If we had been commissioned by Rolex to perform a scientific and statistically valid survey to determine the precise percentage of 32xx movements which have issues, then yes, 100% agree, we've got nothing. But my goal was quite different. I'm trying to answer the binary question "is there a systemic problem?". And to that end, I would argue this has been a success, and further, the answer is "yes".

A very small percentage of the world's Rolex owners will ever visit this forum. An even smaller percentage will happen to come across this thread. An even smaller percentage will bother to click on it and participate. And yet, in a couple weeks we have 100 people saying they've experienced issues. For any other product type that would be very striking info indeed.

Just in the last few days I saw a post where a guy's watch was losing 5 minutes a day. I contacted him and pointed him at this thread and he responded saying he had no idea but thanked me for the post and the pointer. Seeing pictures of the damage, reading comments from an RSC watchmaker, those things change the understanding of such issues completely. It's no longer as easy to believe that maybe you had a one-off issue. Furthermore, it helps those who have had to send the same watch in multiple times understand why this may be - there apparently is no real fix at this time.

At the moment, the vast majority of 32xx owners are under warranty, so these RSC trips are being brushed off as an inconvenience. But what about when people start getting asked to pay real money? Will Rolex do the honorable thing and tell the owner of a 7 year old watch "we're still going to cover these repairs for free"? If not, then having the knowledge of this issue and having a public thread like this (which at the time would be several years old) can be a critical point of leverage for an owner.

Finally, I'd like to generically address the charming pull string dolls who enjoy making the same handful of statements over and over. I'm really happy for you guys that your lives are so uneventful that it doesn't matter what time it is. But as one of these "idiots" who bought a timepiece with the laughable idea that it would tell the time properly, I have to say my life is different. Literally every day I'm cutting things down to the second where I'm off doing something else and rushing to get back to my desk to join a call for work. Glancing at my wrist is far quicker than pulling my phone out when I'm in the garage using a band saw or downstairs working on my bike or in the kitchen making a lunch. If my watch is losing (far worse than gaining) even 10 seconds a day, unless I'm resetting it constantly, I'm going to be noticeably late for calls all the time. So please, with all due respect, can you leave these remarks out of this one thread??? They will positively never change the minds of those of us who disagree. They are quite literally, a complete waste of all of our time.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

Sorry, I completely disagree. If we had been commissioned by Rolex to perform a scientific and statistically valid survey to determine the precise percentage of 32xx movements which have issues, then yes, 100% agree, we've got nothing. But my goal was quite different. I'm trying to answer the binary question "is there a systemic problem?". And to that end, I would argue this has been a success, and further, the answer is "yes".

A very small percentage of the world's Rolex owners will ever visit this forum. An even smaller percentage will happen to come across this thread. An even smaller percentage will bother to click on it and participate. And yet, in a couple weeks we have 100 people saying they've experienced issues. For any other product type that would be very striking info indeed.

Just in the last few days I saw a post where a guy's watch was losing 5 minutes a day. I contacted him and pointed him at this thread and he responded saying he had no idea but thanked me for the post and the pointer. Seeing pictures of the damage, reading comments from an RSC watchmaker, those things change the understanding of such issues completely. It's no longer as easy to believe that maybe you had a one-off issue. Furthermore, it helps those who have had to send the same watch in multiple times understand why this may be - there apparently is no real fix at this time.

At the moment, the vast majority of 32xx owners are under warranty, so these RSC trips are being brushed off as an inconvenience. But what about when people start getting asked to pay real money? Will Rolex do the honorable thing and tell the owner of a 7 year old watch "we're still going to cover these repairs for free"? If not, then having the knowledge of this issue and having a public thread like this (which at the time would be several years old) can be a critical point of leverage for an owner.

Finally, I'd like to generically address the charming pull string dolls who enjoy making the same handful of statements over and over. I'm really happy for you guys that your lives are so uneventful that it doesn't matter what time it is. But as one of these "idiots" who bought a timepiece with the laughable idea that it would tell the time properly, I have to say my life is different. Literally every day I'm cutting things down to the second where I'm off doing something else and rushing to get back to my desk to join a call for work. Glancing at my wrist is far quicker than pulling my phone out when I'm in the garage using a band saw or downstairs working on my bike or in the kitchen making a lunch. If my watch is losing (far worse than gaining) even 10 seconds a day, unless I'm resetting it constantly, I'm going to be noticeably late for calls all the time. So please, with all due respect, can you leave these remarks out of this one thread??? They will positively never change the minds of those of us who disagree. They are quite literally, a complete waste of all of our time.

Well if yours or anyone's life is run to the exact second each day then I feel most sincerely very sorry for them all.

[saxo3]

55 or 53 degrees

There have been many threads on this Forum discussing the so-called lift angle of the 3200 series movements.

All kind of claims and speculations were made, most of them either rely or comment posts from SearChart (aka Bas).

I had asked him to measure the lift angle but he did not yet come back with a result, see https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=780836

I have also not seen one post that shares an official document from Rolex SA where the lift angle is stated, neither for 55 degrees nor for 53 degrees.

But what is the difference between these two slightly different lift angles concerning the caliber rate, amplitude, beat error and averaged (5 positions) accuracy? Nobody presented any data so far.

Here are the results of measurements I did in October 2020


Conclusions (as expected)

The rates and beat errors remain unchanged.

The averaged amplitudes are about 10 degrees lower for 53 degrees.

Nothing to worry about!

[HiBoost]

Originally Posted by saxo3

But what is the difference between these two slightly different lift angles concerning the caliber rate, amplitude, beat error and averaged (5 positions) accuracy? Nobody presented any data so far.

Great info, thanks for posting! Amplitude is calculated in the timegrapher by measuring the time between a sequence of noises made by the escapement. If the machine knows the angle needed to get from "noise 1" to "noise 2" then it uses internal tables to calculate the required rate of acceleration and extrapolate out what the overall amplitude must be. Your data seems to show two patterns:

First, it shows that a smaller lift angle will result in a smaller calculated amplitude. The "time between noises" would be the same in either test, but if the machine thinks we went 55 degrees instead of 53 degrees then it will think we are accelerating faster and thus we will travel farther (i.e. higher amplitude). This makes sense.

Second, it seems to show that as the amplitude drops, the difference between the 53 and 55 measurements gets bigger. For higher amplitude conditions it's as little as a 5 degree difference, but for lower amplitude it's as much as 14 degrees. When amplitude is lower, the measured time between the noises will be longer, but I haven't been able to reason how that would result in this trend. Any ideas?

[PekWatchGuy]

Agree.

Originally Posted by Driver8

Sorry, I know I shouldn't bite, but..... I just can't subscribe to the "just wear it no matter what the timekeeping is like" school of thought. You don't need a timegrapher (and nor do I own one) to tell if your watch is losing multiple seconds a day. Since my own SD43 is currently losing 10 seconds a day, I can very easily see that when I'm 5 mins late for meetings/trains/flights etc, at the end of a typical month.

When people are losing upwards of 20 to 30 seconds a day it quickly renders a watch as little more than a decorative bracelet - an expensive piece of costume jewellery. Losing 20 to 30 secs a day means you're off by 10 to 15 mins at the end of a typical month.

We may as well just pull the crown out and know that our watches are right twice a day!

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

Great info, thanks for posting! Amplitude is calculated in the timegrapher by measuring the time between a sequence of noises made by the escapement. If the machine knows the angle needed to get from "noise 1" to "noise 2" then it uses internal tables to calculate the required rate of acceleration and extrapolate out what the overall amplitude must be. Your data seems to show two patterns:

First, it shows that a smaller lift angle will result in a smaller calculated amplitude. The "time between noises" would be the same in either test, but if the machine thinks we went 55 degrees instead of 53 degrees then it will think we are accelerating faster and thus we will travel farther (i.e. higher amplitude). This makes sense.

Second, it seems to show that as the amplitude drops, the difference between the 53 and 55 measurements gets bigger. For higher amplitude conditions it's as little as a 5 degree difference, but for lower amplitude it's as much as 14 degrees. When amplitude is lower, the measured time between the noises will be longer, but I haven't been able to reason how that would result in this trend. Any ideas?

The amplitude of a caliber can be determined using the following formula.



The timegrapher only measures the time difference (delta t) between the first and third pulse in the beat noise. With that the amplitude is calculated using the BPH number and the lift angle, the latter one you choose and put in as parameter.

The difference in delta t is very small if you set your timegrapher either to 53 or 55 degrees.

A 32xx caliber (BPH = 28800) running with an amplitude of 290 degrees has a delta t = 7,27 ms (53 degrees) compared to 7,55 ms (55 degrees).

I have no significant data showing how the difference (between 53 and 55 degrees) varies with amplitude.

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by saxo3

The amplitude of a caliber can be determined using the following formula.



The timegrapher only measures the time difference (delta t) between the first and third pulse in the beat noise. With that the amplitude is calculated using the BPH number and the lift angle, the latter one you choose and put in as parameter.

The difference in delta t is very small if you set your timegrapher either to 53 or 55 degrees.

A 32xx caliber (BPH = 28800) running with an amplitude of 290 degrees has a delta t = 7,27 ms (53 degrees) compared to 7,55 ms (55 degrees).

I have no significant data showing how the difference (between 53 and 55 degrees) varies with amplitude.

For me the question is why did it change in official docs. (Assuming Bas is telling the truth and I’m inclined to believe him).

A slow running watch is slow regardless of the lift angle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jack T]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

Sorry, I completely disagree.



If my watch is losing (far worse than gaining) even 10 seconds a day, unless I'm resetting it constantly, I'm going to be noticeably late for calls all the time. So please, with all due respect, can you leave these remarks out of this one thread??? They will positively never change the minds of those of us who disagree. They are quite literally, a complete waste of all of our time.

Hey, I share your expectation that Rolex should be held to a claim for + or - 2 seconds a day: people are spending a ton of money on a prestigious, luxury item, based on a reputation for reliability, build quality and craftsmanship. And many of these deviations are measured in many minutes per day, shocking really, something no one would expect from even a cheap watch.

From what I have read about the 32xx movement, there may be longer term issues regarding major replacements and expensive servicing, well after the warranty expires. Timekeeping being out of spec will be a relatively problem.

Rolex movements have for many, many years been some of the most readily serviceable movements in the watch industry, a pleasure for any qualified, certified watchmaker to service or repair. With the design and proprietary parts used in the 32xx movement, this will not likely be the case.

But to me, you're mounting a poor defense when you say 10 seconds either way throws your entire schedule out of kilter, ruins your whole day. Better not to say anything.

[zeiter]

Originally Posted by padi56

Well if yours or anyone's life is run to the exact second each day then I feel most sincerely very sorry for them all.

It's big world....

Pilots and GMT's: Yes, they are.