interesting read

[gmtmister]

Baffling how many people will go out of their way to defend Panerai given the plethora of info on how shady they are.
It’s like trying to convince flat earthers they’re wrong !

You can still like and buy their watches, but their sub par behavior is undeniable.

[ILoveFerrari]

Originally Posted by djnick

Jose give it a rest bud we don’t care

I actually do care. I feel that anyone serious enough about horology should be at least somewhat curious about the history of horology manufacturer.

History in itself is fact and neutral. The job of historian is to retrospectively judge how the history unfolded the way it was, and more importantly to make sense out of it through the lens then - we can learn about it and avoid it (if it's a mistake) or repeat it (if it's a success) today.

So Jose, please continue. This is a public forum where everyone can have a say including those who don't like it.



Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

[ChetBaker]

Agreed. I don’t get the animosity. I appreciate the work that is being done to keep Panerai honest, and perhaps other brands in the process. If you feel this is a personal vendetta: who cares and feel free to start your own personal vendetta against one of the other many brands that pull similar shenanigans.

[charger_vital]

This is great stuff, Jose. Very well written and extremely well researched.

Cru, the legal definition of hearsay probably supports your point better i.e. "testimony given by a witness who relates, not what he knows personally, but what others have told him, or what he has heard said by others." We don't know whether the statements "cannot be substantiated," as Oxford's defines it. They very well could be. So I would agree that this article would not be admitted into a court of law, but reporters take out of court statements all the time to publish articles in the court of public opinion. What's the problem with this source doing what literally every other news source does?

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

This is great stuff, Jose. Very well written and extremely well researched.

Cru, the legal definition of hearsay probably supports your point better i.e. "testimony given by a witness who relates, not what he knows personally, but what others have told him, or what he has heard said by others." We don't know whether the statements "cannot be substantiated," as Oxford's defines it. They very well could be. So I would agree that this article would not be admitted into a court of law, but reporters take out of court statements all the time to publish articles in the court of public opinion. What's the problem with this source doing what literally every other news source does?

You don’t need to explain the term to Cru … he’s a lawyer

[ajw45]

There's more value in Jose's posts than all the "incoming" and "I got the call" posts on TRF combined - if just as much traffic went to his website as TRF I think the hobby and community would better for it. Do other brands do dirty things? Totally. I wish there were more Jose's to expose these things for every brand. Additionally, he's done some great collector content as well, really some of the most in-depth and thoughtful research anywhere.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by brandrea

You don’t need to explain the term to Cru … he’s a lawyer

Haha... That makes a lot of sense, actually.

[djnick]

Originally Posted by ilovegt

I actually do care. I feel that anyone serious enough about horology should be at least somewhat curious about the history of horology manufacturer.

History in itself is fact and neutral. The job of historian is to retrospectively judge how the history unfolded the way it was, and more importantly to make sense out of it through the lens then - we can learn about it and avoid it (if it's a mistake) or repeat it (if it's a success) today.

So Jose, please continue. This is a public forum where everyone can have a say including those who don't like it.



Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

As many previously mentioned in this thread this topic has already been discussed at length unless there is NEW and factual information being presented this thread is redundant and just another attempt to pound on vendor.

Its not some recent uncovered mystery that Rolex and Panerai have some history a simple google search yields hundreds of results on this.

[ILoveFerrari]

Originally Posted by djnick

As many previously mentioned in this thread this topic has already been discussed at length unless there is NEW and factual information being presented this thread is redundant and just another attempt to pound on vendor.

Its not some recent uncovered mystery that Rolex and Panerai have some history a simple google search yields hundreds of results on this.

with all due respect, I don't understand your position. You can actually just ignore this thread. It seems like a good number of us appreciate his posts here. I just learned that he was actually the guy who exposed the recently auctioned Rolex in Hong Kong was heavily modified and as a result Philips had to reverse the transaction and made a public apology. In my view, he deserves a lot of respects from the horology community.

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

[ajw45]

Originally Posted by ilovegt

with all due respect, I don't understand your position. You can actually just ignore this thread. It seems like a good number of us appreciate his posts here. I just learned that he was actually the guy who exposed the recently auctioned Rolex in Hong Kong was heavily modified and as a result Philips had to reverse the transaction and made a public apology. In my view, he deserves a lot of respects from the horology community.

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

Yeah, I don't get the hate. Must be ex paneristi still upset that about reality and facts raining on their bubble. Seriously this is some of the best (only?) contemporary investigative horology content. I'm sure he is not alone and there are many knowledgeable people with great insights but it seems like a lot of that knowledge rests with people in the industry who maybe have their hands tied or with collectors who are otherwise occupied, don't know how to use the interwebs, or just don't care enough to put this kind of content together. It's kind of amazing really in all the biillions of people on the internet, Jose is one of not many/any doing this work which benefits so many.

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by ajw45

There's more value in Jose's posts than all the "incoming" and "I got the call" posts on TRF combined - if just as much traffic went to his website as TRF I think the hobby and community would better for it. Do other brands do dirty things? Totally. I wish there were more Jose's to expose these things for every brand. Additionally, he's done some great collector content as well, really some of the most in-depth and thoughtful research anywhere.

There’s value in unnamed sources and fake/photoshopped receipts? My connection at Panerai corporate as well several long-term collectors have confirmed to me personally that José’s “research” is fantasy.

Beyond that, everyone knows there is a connection between Rolex and Panerai. We don’t need an attention-hungry blogger to tell us that.

[ChetBaker]

Yes. Let’s just trust the suits at Panerai HQ with a clear motive to descredit the blogger/journalist who outed them as the modern emperor’s clothes.

[MrGoat]

I don’t have a side here. I don’t care one way or the other for Panerai.

That being said, nothing is fact until it’s sourced. I never even graduated from college and I know research papers need to have sources cited. Anything scientific needs to be peer reviewed.

We can all throw out some source that’s unnamed to prove what we are trying to get across. It doesn’t make it true.

I don’t know Jose and never even heard of him prior to this thread. Yes, his research looks like it COULD be legit. It doesn’t mean it is or isn’t.

As for the screenshots and receipts, there are deep fakes all over the Internet. So I will not view them as fact unless seen in person.

Nothing holds up in the court until it’s proven and sworn. People can say this or that all the way till their hand is on a bible.


Sent from my Apple privacy invasion product

[ILoveFerrari]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

There’s value in unnamed sources and fake/photoshopped receipts? My connection at Panerai corporate as well several long-term collectors have confirmed to me personally that José’s “research” is fantasy.

Beyond that, everyone knows there is a connection between Rolex and Panerai. We don’t need an attention-hungry blogger to tell us that.

I thought you are an attorney. Can you back up the claim that Jose's picture are fake or photoshopped? And how is it not hearsay as well about what you wrote? I am interested in an gentleman debate between you and your source in refuting Jose's statement.

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

[ILoveFerrari]

Originally Posted by MrGoat

I don’t have a side here. I don’t care one way or the other for Panerai.

That being said, nothing is fact until it’s sourced. I never even graduated from college and I know research papers need to have sources cited. Anything scientific needs to be peer reviewed.

We can all throw out some source that’s unnamed to prove what we are trying to get across. It doesn’t make it true.

I don’t know Jose and never even heard of him prior to this thread. Yes, his research looks like it COULD be legit. It doesn’t mean it is or isn’t.

As for the screenshots and receipts, there are deep fakes all over the Internet. So I will not view them as fact unless seen in person.

Nothing holds up in the court until it’s proven and sworn. People can say this or that all the way till their hand is on a bible.


Sent from my Apple privacy invasion product

Agreed overall.

It is this picture that lent a lot of credibility in his article. I don't have a Panerai either, and was interested in one. I do hope that horlogy manufacturer should be more transparent for our benefits as customer as a whole.

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk
Attachment 1307816

[pereztroika]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

There’s value in unnamed sources and fake/photoshopped receipts? My connection at Panerai corporate as well several long-term collectors have confirmed to me personally that José’s “research” is fantasy.

Beyond that, everyone knows there is a connection between Rolex and Panerai. We don’t need an attention-hungry blogger to tell us that.

First of all, the information provided by unnamed sources is non-essential. It doesn't surprise me that you would rather talk about that in order to deflect from the points that really matter. Secondly, those Rolex documents were found in Giuseppe Panerai's office located in the Villino Panerai in Florence by authorized Panerai dealer Francesco Ferretti. They are published in a book named "Panerai – Una Storia Italiana" that was promoted just recently by Panerai itself. The Orologeria service invoice from 1955 came from the son of a Decima MAS Gamma frogman. The actual physical invoice can be examined by anyone who's interested in.

It was clear from the very beginning that your role in this whole thing is not to have an open mind and be convinced by anything I post but rather to try to discredit me. As a lawyer you should know that making unfounded claims that I photoshopped historical documents amounts to libel and defamation.

Oh, since you mentioned photoshop, you know who photoshopped historical stuff and got caught? Panerai. See here, they tried to make believe, the name Officine Panerai existed already in the 1920s. This was their first big shitstorm. It was so massive, they were forced to delete the image and post the original one.




Here you can find the reposted image. Read the comments

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bct14GxHEZG/


Cheers
Jose

[GB-man]

This thread is so nostalgic. I love it.

[yoast]

Originally Posted by GB-man

This thread is so nostalgic. I love it.

+1

It reminds me of the old school Paneristi site.

[Goupax]

Originally Posted by pereztroika

First of all, the information provided by unnamed sources is non-essential. It doesn't surprise me that you would rather talk about that in order to deflect from the points that really matter. Secondly, those Rolex documents were found in Giuseppe Panerai's office located in the Villino Panerai in Florence by authorized Panerai dealer Francesco Ferretti. They are published in a book named "Panerai – Una Storia Italiana" that was promoted just recently by Panerai itself. The Orologeria service invoice from 1955 came from the son of a Decima MAS Gamma frogman. The actual physical invoice can be examined by anyone who's interested in.

It was clear from the very beginning that your role in this whole thing is not to have an open mind and be convinced by anything I post but rather to try to discredit me. As a lawyer you should know that making unfounded claims that I photoshopped historical documents amounts to libel and defamation.

Oh, since you mentioned photoshop, you know who photoshopped historical stuff and got caught? Panerai. See here, they tried to make believe, the name Officine Panerai existed already in the 1920s. This was their first big shitstorm. It was so massive, they were forced to delete the image and post the original one.




Here you can find the reposted image. Read the comments

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bct14GxHEZG/


Cheers
Jose

You can clearly see how anachronistic and out of place the photoshopped Officine Panerai is next to the ''Unione Fabbriche Svizzere'', they sure loved their seriff lettering back in those days. Next to it, the original ''Orologeria Svizzera'' uses the same exact font for obvious reasons.

[pereztroika]

Originally Posted by Goupax

You can clearly see how anachronistic and out of place the photoshopped Officine Panerai is next to the ''Unione Fabbriche Svizzere'', they sure loved their seriff lettering back in those days. Next to it, the original ''Orologeria Svizzera'' uses the same exact font for obvious reasons.

Yeah, the clowns at Panerai – the guys who confirmed to legal eagle Cru Jones that my "research" is fantasy – used the Helvetica typeface which was only created in 1957

Cheers
Jose

[sski]

I would take whatever 'Panerai Corporate' claims with a pinch of salt. These are the same people who posted an image of a fake replica on their social media account. Apparently they couldn't tell the difference between a real genuine Panerai vs. a replica.

That's about all I need to know about the much vaunted Panerai 'quality'.

[pereztroika]

Originally Posted by sski

I would take whatever 'Panerai Corporate' claims with a pinch of salt. These are the same people who posted an image of a fake replica on their social media account. Apparently they couldn't tell the difference between a real genuine Panerai vs. a replica.

That's about all I need to know about the much vaunted Panerai 'quality'.

Many of the fakes, especially those from Chinese super replica lover Erwan Grey, were never deleted. Think about it, there are actual fakes on the official Panerai Instagram. More about this mind-boggling story here:

https://atelierdegriff.com/2021/01/2...-wristbusters/


Cheers
Jose

[ILoveFerrari]

Originally Posted by pereztroika

Many of the fakes, especially those from Chinese super replica lover Erwan Grey, were never deleted. Think about it, there are actual fakes on the official Panerai Instagram. More about this mind-boggling story here:

https://atelierdegriff.com/2021/01/2...-wristbusters/


Cheers
Jose

holy moly! This is absolutely mental to say the least! I think it just boiled down to this - those who hate your work is affected by it because either they have Panerai or financial incentive to continue the deception as you uncovered. Those who appreciate it are those with conscience and/or those planning to buy a Panerai and made a right choice after reading your article.

I thank your work. Personal vendetta as someone above called you having; I think it is not necessarily a negative thing. I must ask which great movement in history did not start with personal vendetta or agenda?

Continue your work so that the horology world can be better and move forward. I wonder what will happen if I buy a fake Chinese product and send it in for repair.

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

[sski]

Originally Posted by ilovegt

I wonder what will happen if I buy a fake Chinese product and send it in for repair.

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

They'll bring it up to COSC standards; regulate it so thoroughly & meticulously that it meets/exceeds COSC. As an added bonus, if the watch was 10M WR, they will bump it up to a full 100M WR (plus, they'll issue a service warranty should you run into issues.) win/win situation.

[Greglaw]

While i still like Panerai, I have 2 words, Brooklyn Bridge. Also, I believe that the images showing the watch shop are accurate, one photoshopped (posted by Panerai) and the other the corrected image.

As a trial lawyer, I can tell you that heresay, is an out of court statement, made by the declarant other than while testifying at the trial or hearing, offered in evidence for the truth of the matter asserted.

This is per the Federal Rules of Evidence (Rule 801) and the Rules of Evidence in the State of Rhode Island, and Commonwealth of Massachusetts, where I practice.

Like all internet arguments, these can go on forever. Quite frankly, on the internet, I doubt there is much truth anymore, anywhere, just look at politics. Reality is pure distortion and opinion.

[Greglaw]

While i still like Panerai, I have 2 words, Brooklyn Bridge. Also, I believe that the images showing the watch shop are accurate, one photoshopped (posted by Panerai) and the other the corrected image.

As a trial lawyer, I can tell you that heresay, is an out of court statement, made by the declarant other than while testifying at the trial or hearing, offered in evidence for the truth of the matter asserted.

This is per the Federal Rules of Evidence (Rule 801) and the Rules of Evidence in the State of Rhode Island, and Commonwealth of Massachusetts, where I practice.

Like all internet arguments, these can go on forever. Quite frankly, on the internet, I doubt there is much truth anymore, anywhere, just look at politics. Reality is pure distortion and opinion.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by Greglaw

Like all internet arguments, these can go on forever. Quite frankly, on the internet, I doubt there is much truth anymore, anywhere, just look at politics. Reality is pure distortion and opinion.

Are lawyers and courtrooms any different?. You get two “experts” giving testimony (ie “evidence”) that completely contradicts the other. You have two lawyers who are bound by ethical responsibility to zealously advocate for their client (not the truth), If there was an objective truth, that would never happen.

It’s all opinion and it’s up to the court to decide the truth (whether it’s a court or law or the court of public opinion). Here the question presented to the court of public opinion is whether Panerai is a serious brand or not. That is… does it have real intrinsic value. The evidence is overwhelmingly against it at the moment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Greglaw]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

Are lawyers and courtrooms any different?. You get two “experts” giving testimony (ie “evidence”) that completely contradicts the other. You have two lawyers who are bound by ethical responsibility to zealously advocate for their client (not the truth), If there was an objective truth, that would never happen.

It’s all opinion and it’s up to the court to decide the truth (whether it’s a court or law or the court of public opinion). Here the question presented to the court of public opinion is whether Panerai is a serious brand or not. That is… does it have real intrinsic value. The evidence is overwhelmingly against it at the moment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lawyers don’t give testimony, they elicit it through direct examination and via cross-examination. Media accounts of trials distort what happens in a trial. You present your case through your client, and witnesses and properly admitted evidence.

The finder of fact, be it the judge, or a jury, if a jury trial, makes the decision based upon all of that. If you knowingly present something false, as you put it-not the truth-then that is perjury if by testimony, or if actual physical evidence that is falsified, then that is fraud.

[ILoveFerrari]

Originally Posted by Greglaw

Lawyers don’t give testimony, they elicit it through direct examination and via cross-examination. Media accounts of trials distort what happens in a trial. You present your case through your client, and witnesses and properly admitted evidence.

The finder of fact, be it the judge, or a jury, if a jury trial, makes the decision based upon all of that. If you knowingly present something false, as you put it-not the truth-then that is perjury if by testimony, or if actual physical evidence that is falsified, then that is fraud.

These legal discussions are actually important. To me, it underscore the possibility of Jose's information are likely true, lest he just wants Panerai suing him. His information have been widely public. The lack of lawsuit from Panerai could be because either a lawsuit is already in the process but not made to the major news yet, or simply because Panerai knows they got busted and not knowing how to salvage the issues with PR and current customer base who may feel that their financial investment were made under the misguided representation of the brand. That in of itself is no longer simply an issue of pretending having an inhouse movement.


Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

[ajw45]

Originally Posted by ilovegt

These legal discussions are actually important. To me, it underscore the possibility of Jose's information are likely true, lest he just wants Panerai suing him. His information have been widely public. The lack of lawsuit from Panerai could be because either a lawsuit is already in the process but not made to the major news yet, or simply because Panerai knows they got busted and not knowing how to salvage the issues with PR and current customer base who may feel that their financial investment were made under the misguided representation of the brand. That in of itself is no longer simply an issue of pretending having an inhouse movement.


Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

Lol, good point, love it!