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#31 | |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: .
Posts: 1,532
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Quote:
At the same time, I appreciate that WB stepped forward on the forum here and is committed to doing right. Thank you for that. |
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#32 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: NYC
Posts: 452
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#33 | |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: N/A
Posts: 266
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Quote:
I've held a couple of pieces in person and I could see their value. I loved the aesthetics. I can justify DB pricing much more than AP for example... |
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#34 | |
2024 Pledge Member
Join Date: Jan 2018
Real Name: Michael
Location: Dotonbori
Watch: Mostly blue dials
Posts: 7,877
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Quote:
Comparatively, the latest DB25SQP perpetual calendar in titanium is priced at 145k, or more than 10% above the platinum 5236P, and approximately 10% more than the 5740 in full white gold. Both the DB25SQP and 5236P have no inward angles (sign of hand-finishing). In addition, DB is a relatively new company that started in 2010 and recently was acquired by WB, thus losing its independence. Patek is independent and has been around for a long time. There are other Patek PC like the 5327 and 5320 that are significantly cheaper than the 5236 and they are beautiful pieces too. If you don't like the Patek comparison, the recently released DB25VTM was priced 10% more than the Journe TV, which is a magnificent watch that is extremely popular and made in very small quantities too. As I mentioned in my previous post, I do like some of DB's watches (the smaller ones) and will support their products if they are priced less aggressively. My AD also carries DB and I'm happy to add a DB or 2 in my collection. For now, to me, there are many other watches from Patek, FPJ, RG, KV, Lange, AP and VC that I will choose over DB at MSRP. |
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#35 | |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: US
Posts: 323
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Any De Bethune owners/supporters?
Quote:
Hardly. I’m not interested in most of the designs for the Star Trek reasons although a few are fascinating concepts. Just not my taste for most. I’m not sure why it automatically goes to being jealous because I have a problem with paying a deposit. How about we stay elevated here my friend. I’m beginning to wonder if you have a connection w the seller. I think the point stands about the deposit to shipping ratio. And moreover, the logic just doesn't make any sense even if that is their intention. If it is a refundable deposit, then the issue of shipping it from wherever to wherever is a sunk cost that is irrelevant to the potential buyer. It is clearly unrelated to that concern of moving pieces. I’m glad the new owner is happy though. |
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#36 | |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: NYC
Posts: 452
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Quote:
Totally connected. I'm a DB owner and a WB customer. Since this thread asked for actual experience from owners and supporters of the brand I think I'm in the right place. My question is why are you in this thread other than to troll? You haven't added anything to the OPs question, you're not interested in the designs of the watches, and you keep casting shade about this shipping deposit when you know nothing about the costs. This thread has been really positive for a few folks, I don't understand why you're trying to make a problem out of something that isn't for actual customers. You want "elevated"? How about you let everyone just be happy with their watches and the fact that WB is reaching out to folks and making things right. |
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#37 | |
2024 Pledge Member
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: NY
Watch: Voutilainen (2030)
Posts: 756
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Quote:
I also much prefer the smaller sized DBs. There’s a lot of cool watches but some are just way too big for me. I’m curious what you think about the finishing/in house aspect of DB compared to some of the brands you mentioned. What is true there are just so many amazing watches out there that it can be hard to choose sometimes. I love the brands you mentioned but if I could add a DB to my collection at retail I definitely would. It just has that combination of fun/futuristic/high art that I love. Thanks for sharing your opinion on this. |
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#38 | |
2024 Pledge Member
Join Date: Jan 2018
Real Name: Michael
Location: Dotonbori
Watch: Mostly blue dials
Posts: 7,877
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Quote:
Patek has hand-finishing on their tourbillon movements though while the finishing on the DB25VTM looks machined. In terms of the brands I listed earlier, the ones that I think are best finished and consistent across their model lines are Akrivia, Philippe Dufour and Kari Voutilainen. Romain Gauthier is a close 4th (their Continuum's finishing is not outstanding). Lange, Vacheron and Patek are in the next tier as I can see hand-finishing in their best product offerings. FPJ is mostly machined-finished but their decorations and aesthetics are lovely, which is similar to Gronefeld. AP is here too. Sorry but I don't consider DB's finishing on their movements as a strength. If I ever buy the DB25SQP, it will be due to the overall aesthetics of the dial (plus guilloche) and the 40mm size. |
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#39 | |
2024 Pledge Member
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: NY
Watch: Voutilainen (2030)
Posts: 756
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Quote:
As always I really appreciate your input and opinions. I’ve only been able to see a few of these in person but not all of them so it’s nice to see you break it down this way. |
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#40 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: NJ
Posts: 2,605
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Don’t forget greubel forsey on that list !
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#41 |
2024 Pledge Member
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: NY
Watch: Voutilainen (2030)
Posts: 756
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#42 | |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: NYC
Posts: 452
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Quote:
DB is not super traditional when it comes to finishing, I would characterize it as super clean but not highly decorated. Lots of black polish, brushing, and blasting, little in the way of traditional flourishes like interior and exterior angles, devils tails, batman horns, etc. However, you also won't find any faux machined anglage, fresh out of the cnc unfinished nooks and crannies, or stamped guilloche. One thing they do consistently well imho is their hands - their hands are all fully hand finished and as good as the best of them, finished top, sides, bottom, reliefs, hand bent/shaped, etc. The minutes hand on my DB28 might have the only hand done sharp angles on the whole watch. The second is balance bridges, on many DB28s you'll see fully mirror polished balance bridges, sometimes fully rounded like a Kari or skeletonized. Finally, it's the mirror polish, dials, bridges, cases, excellent. Interestingly, the bullet shaped tips of the lugs are hand shaped and finished to get the sharp transitions from the rounded bullets to the articulating arms. I think there's a philosophy around finishing through creative engineering more than traditional handwork. For example, their 3D moons are ridiculous - totally mirror polished and made out of two halves that are so perfectly machined they fit together seamlessly. Similarly, rather than fat rounded anglage on bridges, DB likes to actually encircle the bridges with separate mirror polished surround, the idea being they can execute some deep (machined) cotes de geneve or microlight engraving and then essentially cap the edges with a perfectly machined to fit fully polished surround as a separate component. This removes the steps in the edge of the bridges you might find in traditional anglage that you see between geneva stripes and allows them to try other decorations as well. In this case, there's less traditional handwork, instead of one bridge that's been labored over for hours, the DB bridge might be built up from a few components that fit perfectly together but have different finishes. The one area that DB does short change I think for the price is the wheels. They are clean but the internal spokes for example are not decorated like a KV or even a VC for similar or less money. While the DB style is very different, wheels are wheels. DB does up their level of finishing of the wheels with more expensive models like the dead beat tourbillons and such so they can do it but at a much higher price point. I think in person with under a loupe you will miss some traditional finishing but what is there is well done. |
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#43 |
2024 Pledge Member
Join Date: Jan 2018
Real Name: Michael
Location: Dotonbori
Watch: Mostly blue dials
Posts: 7,877
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Apologies I have omitted Greubel Forsey and Credor because I'm not sure exactly how to assess them.
Greubel Forsey is not big on the traditional anglage but I can see the very nicely executed flying V arch pair on most of their modern collections (dial side). They claim each arch pair took 2 weeks to finish by hands. I think that can be done by machine (due to the large size and smooth curvature) and shouldn't take 2 weeks each. I'm not doubting them though as their technicians might really have taken that long to do a job that can be done by machine. I remember their Hand Made 1 did not have a lot of anglage and it's really difficult to ascertain how much of it is handmade. For Credor, the anglage is there but the issue is they don't have inward angles on their anglage. I think they could have mirrored their Genevan counterparts and carve them to showcase their flair. I understand some of their watchmakers went to the prestigious Genevan watch schools for education so maybe it was a lack of awareness from the management as to how these sharp angles might help their product better. I didn't include brands like MB&F because they completely outsource their finishing to a 3rd party. Above are just my observations and opinion. Some say finishing can be demonstrated in other ways but to me, if a certain finishing can be done with a machine, then it is very hard to tell how much human efforts have gone into it. |
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#44 | |
2024 Pledge Member
Join Date: Jan 2018
Real Name: Michael
Location: Dotonbori
Watch: Mostly blue dials
Posts: 7,877
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Quote:
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#45 | |
2024 Pledge Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Real Name: Steven
Location: Glocal
Posts: 20,487
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Quote:
Time marches on. Both expenses and demand have greatly grown since the 1990s as has the creativity and diversity of horology. Yet yes, the current market can be a challenge trying to keep everyone happy. Especially on the highest end, where the most passionate of us 'play' and the rarest of the rare are obtainable (as possible). PS: On an earlier post by ???, a correction as Max said MB&F makes ~300 timepieces a year. Peak at 350 / yr is all he desires. PPS: Lots of exceptional info on this thread, love TRF ![]()
__________________
__________________ Love timepieces and want to become a Watchmaker? Rolex has a sensational school. www.RolexWatchmakingTrainingCenter.com/ Sent from my Etch A Sketch using String Theory. |
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#46 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: .
Posts: 1,532
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+++1 This thread has been a great source of practical knowledge and insights at a key horological juncture for me. Special thanks to FG, AJW, and Ichiran whose experiences and respectful exchanges have been extremely valuable.
Thank you guys for that. ![]() |
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#47 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: NYC
Posts: 452
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#48 | |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: US
Posts: 323
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Any De Bethune owners/supporters?
Quote:
My man. Chill with the emotion. Again resorting to the troll concept. We all don’t have to agree with everything in order to post here. Moderators please verify if I missed something essential on this forum. No need to keep making it personal. There’s nothing wrong about questioning the practices of a seller much less larger organization. I’ve dealt w WB before. Stop with the presumptions. Is this the first thread where some ppl disagreed or had different viewpoints? Our new owner colleague here wasn’t happy about it which is what really matters. Aside from that I repeat I like the forward design but some styles are too space like but I know their rarity and uniqueness seem appealing to many. |
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#49 | |
2024 Pledge Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Real Name: Steven
Location: Glocal
Posts: 20,487
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Quote:
![]() ------ ------ With so many affluent collectors globally, at some point someone will be very happy... while others will complain they can't get ____. Even a great relationship with the manufacturer or AD, if an independent produces only 500 pieces across 8 models and there are 1500 very affluent collectors out of a population of 8,000,000,000.... We've all immensely benefitted from the recent bubble, which has supported some wonderful new horology from various manufacturers and innovations that can be amortized.
__________________
__________________ Love timepieces and want to become a Watchmaker? Rolex has a sensational school. www.RolexWatchmakingTrainingCenter.com/ Sent from my Etch A Sketch using String Theory. |
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#51 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: .
Posts: 1,532
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WOW, that is a nice demonstration of the impressiveness and spectrum of dB offerings! Thanks for sharing this.
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#52 | |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: N/A
Posts: 266
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Quote:
If we look into retail prices it is now clear to me that DB may be a little bit off compared with other brands and complications. When I had the opportunity to see DeBethune in person it was around the time PP 5164a was being sold for around $120-140k. So in comparison, DB-28 seemed fairly priced, as you can't get either PP popular models or DB at retail either. All this assuming "market price", is the real price. |
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#53 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: N/A
Posts: 266
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#54 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: World
Watch: 16750
Posts: 2,732
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I as well had a very disappointing experience with Watchbox just recently and have reached out to the given email
mweitz@thewatchbox.com |
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#55 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: .
Posts: 1,532
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With my DB28XP now in hand, I wanted to follow up this great thread with my own initial impressions. I was able to get this piece from an AD that last year was due to receive this piece at the end of this year i.e. now. As such, I was able to get this at msrp. As a titanium piece it is light on the wrist, but it certainly has a clear presence. The high polish delta with the blued hands pulls me in first, then I take notice of the finer dial details. I’m happy this version came with the fully blued hands, as opposed to the earlier version with the blued tips (as in the picture under the watch). Looking at it objectively from afar (in a mirror) while on the wrist, you can’t help but acknowledge it’s unique, inter-galactic-like aesthetic (which either you like or don’t), but still with a clear ‘traditional’ time-telling mechanism ie hour and minute hands. I find this sort of dichotomy to be intriguing and cool, and it’s actually this dichotomy that [to me] characterizes the DB28 series had me thinking “when can I get my next one?!” :) This XP series was attractive to me because of a thinner/flatter construction, which gives me more options with which to wear it. Additionally, I can certainly appreciate the work/effort that goes into an otherwise ‘simpler’ (time only) piece like this one, especially when you experience the floating lugs, but I can also see why other collectors might consider the price point questionably high for the detail of work. But I believe the more complicated DB28 pieces would make a stronger impression on them in the metal. On the whole, I am very happy to have the chance to own a DB and have been in touch with the main DB salon in Geneva about next pieces. Importantly, however, for convenience and communication since I’m US based, I would prefer and hope I can deal with Watchbox moving forward. I had reached out and connected a while back with respect to a specific watch that I requested as soon as it was released, but I’m not sure where I stand as far as that’s concerned right now. To be fair, I have learned that WB is very busy trying to establish their infrastructures and processes, so I can appreciate the challenges of any new venture. How they manage existing and new DB enthusiasts will be a key test, based on some of the sentiments from just this small forum thread.
Nonetheless, thanks for allowing me to share my initial impressions. ![]() Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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#56 | |
2024 Pledge Member
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: NY
Watch: Voutilainen (2030)
Posts: 756
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Quote:
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#57 | |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: .
Posts: 1,532
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Quote:
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#58 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: woodmere,ny
Posts: 573
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Beautiful watch. I have found watchbox great to deal with. You need to find 1 contact person and stay with them.
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#59 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: .
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#60 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: woodmere,ny
Posts: 573
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my pleasure
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