Antagonist view :: Patek is in worse position compared to AP

[pam66]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I was recently at an event with some serious collectors and everyone was crowding around the owner to look at her watch (pic below), despite the presence of George Daniels, Simplicity, AK-06, RRCC, Roger Smith S2, Voutilainen Vingt-8 and 217QRS, and some LE Journes amongst various others in the same event. If I merely read this thread without knowing anything about Patek I would have thought Patek only has Nautilus in its catalog. I don't know what's the market price of this Patek but I don't think the owner cares whether it is "under retail" or not. I would love to own this too even if it is "way under retail" just like the owner.

yes, true. i should have added that PP does beautiful watches in the very very high end (starting north of 500K USD) and many of those pieces trade over retail.

[kaiserphoenix]

Im sorry OP, and this is not a personal attack, as everyone is entitlted to have and share their opinions here so I will as well. But this is total b*llocks mate.

AP is like a really really popular hamburger shop. They have basically stuck with the same burger recipe that has worked for decades and sure, added a couple of tweaks, maybe having some Pork, Chicken burgers to their Beef ones but basically a really really good Burger joint. They tried to add Fish and Chips but basically flopped in many ways BUT since everyone realized if they eat the Fish and Chips occasionally, they can get the burger quicker or have a seat at the restaurant, it sells as well.

Patek is like a Michellin start restaurant that has a variety of stuff on the menu. Some are rarely ordered, some are signature dishes. There is something to cater for alot of people (note wealthier people). Its not a restaurant for the people, and its not supposed to be.

Now putting is back to watches, AP does the Royal Oak really well. But even the RO, they rarely ever innovate in their movements for example. For how many decades are they gonna churn out that tired and old perpetual module? Patek has 3 different perpetuals in their line up from the 240 based derivates to the triple window, to the manual wound.perpetual chronograph. AP uses the same old thin and fragile QP movement in every single one, INCLUDING their Code 11. What about their 3 hand and Chrono movmeents? They still cant get an inhouse chronograph movement to be thin in 2024, whereas Patek has Chronographs, Annual Calendar Chronographs, Perpetual Chronographs, Perpetual SPLIT chronogrpahs list goes on.

AP is not really a WATCH MAKER in that respect. They manufacture EXCELLENT cases and bracelets and they are beautiful. But most of their movements are basic and average (NOTE I DO NOT INCLUDE THE RENAUD e PAPI stuff here) or stuff in the Concept because they are concepts and lets be honest, most of them are not very wearable in size or availability.

Im not D*ssing AP. They are great at what they do. But Patek are in a different league mate.

[Gelateria]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

If "nobody wants" how did they sell out their 70,000 watches every year? I love most of their line up.

I find my 2 Patek AD friendly, professional and helpful, and 1 of them I don't buy much from. I visited the Geneva Salon last Sep and Roberto has been exemplary in his service even though I didn't buy anything from them. I also see other SA at the same Salon and they remind me of private banking RM in the way they treat their customers. I even received some small gifts from Roberto. I left happy and impressed. This is nowhere near antagonistic or arrogant to me.

To be fair the one thing ap has over patek is the business model. You have a huge history of course you get nicely treated, but there are so many horror story out there even with current clients.
With ap bt it's still about the same game, but at least it's standardised, and the service is consistent unlike pp ADs.
And of course I doubt anyone will speak like that asshole Thierry.

The rest of the thread about ap bring better than patek esp the watch lineup? That's the craziest bullshit I've heard for a while

[Gelateria]

Originally Posted by kaiserphoenix

Im sorry OP, and this is not a personal attack, as everyone is entitlted to have and share their opinions here so I will as well. But this is total b*llocks mate.

AP is like a really really popular hamburger shop. They have basically stuck with the same burger recipe that has worked for decades and sure, added a couple of tweaks, maybe having some Pork, Chicken burgers to their Beef ones but basically a really really good Burger joint. They tried to add Fish and Chips but basically flopped in many ways BUT since everyone realized if they eat the Fish and Chips occasionally, they can get the burger quicker or have a seat at the restaurant, it sells as well.

Patek is like a Michellin start restaurant that has a variety of stuff on the menu. Some are rarely ordered, some are signature dishes. There is something to cater for alot of people (note wealthier people). Its not a restaurant for the people, and its not supposed to be.

Now putting is back to watches, AP does the Royal Oak really well. But even the RO, they rarely ever innovate in their movements for example. For how many decades are they gonna churn out that tired and old perpetual module? Patek has 3 different perpetuals in their line up from the 240 based derivates to the triple window, to the manual wound.perpetual chronograph. AP uses the same old thin and fragile QP movement in every single one, INCLUDING their Code 11. What about their 3 hand and Chrono movmeents? They still cant get an inhouse chronograph movement to be thin in 2024, whereas Patek has Chronographs, Annual Calendar Chronographs, Perpetual Chronographs, Perpetual SPLIT chronogrpahs list goes on.

AP is not really a WATCH MAKER in that respect. They manufacture EXCELLENT cases and bracelets and they are beautiful. But most of their movements are basic and average (NOTE I DO NOT INCLUDE THE RENAUD e PAPI stuff here) or stuff in the Concept because they are concepts and lets be honest, most of them are not very wearable in size or availability.

Im not D*ssing AP. They are great at what they do. But Patek are in a different league mate.

AP is basically a fashion watch brand, a very great one at that. Like you said they have absolutely no watchmaking pedigree comparing to pp and vc.
People criticise pp and vc for some of their calibres because they are supposed to be technically well versed so we cared about the watchmaking part of pp vc, have you heard anyone commenting on ap's calibre? Not a single person cared (well except a good amount of people having to send their ap to repair when they go wrong esp chrono). The ro can have a solid case back for all I care, we buy ro for the design and bracelet, not the watch making part of it lol

Pp vc are not without their fault but putting ap lineup above them two is such an insult that they don't deserve...

[ChetBaker]

Originally Posted by kaiserphoenix

Im sorry OP, and this is not a personal attack, as everyone is entitlted to have and share their opinions here so I will as well. But this is total b*llocks mate.

AP is like a really really popular hamburger shop. They have basically stuck with the same burger recipe that has worked for decades and sure, added a couple of tweaks, maybe having some Pork, Chicken burgers to their Beef ones but basically a really really good Burger joint. They tried to add Fish and Chips but basically flopped in many ways BUT since everyone realized if they eat the Fish and Chips occasionally, they can get the burger quicker or have a seat at the restaurant, it sells as well.

Patek is like a Michellin start restaurant that has a variety of stuff on the menu. Some are rarely ordered, some are signature dishes. There is something to cater for alot of people (note wealthier people). Its not a restaurant for the people, and its not supposed to be.

Now putting is back to watches, AP does the Royal Oak really well. But even the RO, they rarely ever innovate in their movements for example. For how many decades are they gonna churn out that tired and old perpetual module? Patek has 3 different perpetuals in their line up from the 240 based derivates to the triple window, to the manual wound.perpetual chronograph. AP uses the same old thin and fragile QP movement in every single one, INCLUDING their Code 11. What about their 3 hand and Chrono movmeents? They still cant get an inhouse chronograph movement to be thin in 2024, whereas Patek has Chronographs, Annual Calendar Chronographs, Perpetual Chronographs, Perpetual SPLIT chronogrpahs list goes on.

AP is not really a WATCH MAKER in that respect. They manufacture EXCELLENT cases and bracelets and they are beautiful. But most of their movements are basic and average (NOTE I DO NOT INCLUDE THE RENAUD e PAPI stuff here) or stuff in the Concept because they are concepts and lets be honest, most of them are not very wearable in size or availability.

Im not D*ssing AP. They are great at what they do. But Patek are in a different league mate.

This. The fact that this thread quickly devolved into value retention, stepping stones towards a steel sports watch and instagram and celebrities tells you everything you need to know about present day AP. I’d love a 15202 at some point but other than that give me Patek and VC any day of the week.

Edit: there was a recent poll here asking if one of PP, VC or AP were to be removed from the Holy Trinity, which should it be. AP got the most votes by some distance.

[bob101]

Both great brands that made interesting and innovative vintage pieces. VC too. Sadly a bit of innovation and design elegance has been lost from all 3 I would say.
Stern brothers creations hand made dials for both AP and PP back in the day. Stern made for AP even up until 2012 or so with the tapisserie waffle dial Royal Oak.

[Pfang56]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I was recently at an event with some serious collectors and everyone was crowding around the owner to look at her watch (pic below), despite the presence of George Daniels, Simplicity, AK-06, RRCC, Roger Smith S2, Voutilainen Vingt-8 and 217QRS, and some LE Journes amongst various others in the same event. If I merely read this thread without knowing anything about Patek I would have thought Patek only has Nautilus in its catalog. I don't know what's the market price of this Patek but I don't think the owner cares whether it is "under retail" or not. I would love to own this too even if it is "way under retail" just like the owner.

Hi there - this enamel dialed minute repeater is wonderful and incredibly unique. There are incredibly unique PP pieces to be selected across the PP portfolio - and I imagine getting the approval by PP was a really unique experience. It's probably ideal for the individual collector and will be an extraordinary heirloom piece!

That being said - if this is about "market position" then my question is simply - if you ask the entire market, is this one example really more desirable than a RRCC, a Simplicity, any George Daniels, or any piece by an independent?

This is where PP lost its edge and desirability. Many people (including myself) would prefer to add another independent brand than buy another high end PP. PP has become less competitive and attractive vs the independents because of its lack of consistency and strength at the high end. I would argue lack of focus happens with PP's large catalogue and that unfortunately has made independents even more attractive than PP.

On the flip side, PP is more aware they have one of the most desirable stainless steel sports watches in the entire industry. Yet, they just decided over the last few years to reduce investment and expand the line. Why not try to add a higher end complication beyond the PC to the Nautilus? And, why not make a Titanium model (TS has openly shared he would never do it)? I mean they certainly have the capabilities and money to make it happen!

This is where I think PP makes a bad business decision, and AP is making much smarter business decisions, to preserve AND grow their market position. Yes it turns some people off but it definitely meets the requests and demands of their customers. It grows their business. Common business sense.

Working in family run companies in the past, I can understand sometimes that business logic does not always win with these strategic choices. It's often about reputation and coincidentally - handing down a legacy for future generations - but as a PP collector myself - I think this decision with the Cubitus / Nautilus will definitely be written up in business cases in the future!


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[Divingdeep87]

As a VIP at an AP House and a Patek Boutique in terms of event and customers relationship I actually find AP superior - the last 6 months they have really upped there game for events and stuff like that. Going for a whisky tasting event at AP next month, last month was a "after work party" Pretty cool - My last PP event was this summer seeing new watches and hearing the minute repeaters.. Also kind of cool - but AP is really ahead at the moment.

[HMHM]

Tbh.... both AP and Patek are essentially two sides of the same coin. The reason to like one over the other often comes down to which side sells you a watch.

The one thing I would say that AP very clearly does better than Patek is their online watch registry. With AP, you can immediately register your watch on your account, and you can document your watch journey, which is a sight to behold. With Patek, there is still no individualised online account to record your purchase history and that is quite unacceptable in this day and age.

[nachopc]

I have to disagree, I prefer Patek all the way, AP is continually delivering limited edition of watches, last one …..one for JM.
Not to mention the ambassadors they have…….


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[Partekular]

Originally Posted by HMHM

Tbh.... both AP and Patek are essentially two sides of the same coin. The reason to like one over the other often comes down to which side sells you a watch.

The one thing I would say that AP very clearly does better than Patek is their online watch registry. With AP, you can immediately register your watch on your account, and you can document your watch journey, which is a sight to behold. With Patek, there is still no individualised online account to record your purchase history and that is quite unacceptable in this day and age.

Well I get the temptation but I’m unsure about the wisdom of that given the seemingly endless hacking into supposedly secure web sites. I prefer paper in this instance and I am happy to rely upon PP’s doubtless antiquated record keeping.

[huncho]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

This. The fact that this thread quickly devolved into value retention, stepping stones towards a steel sports watch and instagram and celebrities tells you everything you need to know about present day AP. I’d love a 15202 at some point but other than that give me Patek and VC any day of the week.

Edit: there was a recent poll here asking if one of PP, VC or AP were to be removed from the Holy Trinity, which should it be. AP got the most votes by some distance.

nobody here has said patek makes worse watches or deserves to be in the holy trinity less than AP. the point people are trying to make is that to the general public and people that influence mainstream fashion, patek is basically just the nautilus. but also on the other side, when it comes to sales, everything revolves around the nautilus in some way as that's the only incentive to dealing with their ADs

this is a thread on brand image not brand quality and both can be true. i understand people love to shit on AP though so it is what it is

[Paul C]

PP, VC, and AP are like Lamborghini, Ferrari, and Maserati. Each excel at different things.

[EazyE]

Originally Posted by messikens

That's actually not at all what I said (though pam66 prob said it better / more succinctly) but thanks for coming!

Sorry, I was responding to another comment but forgot to quote it in my sleepy state!

[jgottsman11]

After feeling it out for a few days after the release, I feel Thiery is a total douche and this release is whack as everyone is saying.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by Gelateria

To be fair the one thing ap has over patek is the business model. You have a huge history of course you get nicely treated, but there are so many horror story out there even with current clients.
With ap bt it's still about the same game, but at least it's standardised, and the service is consistent unlike pp ADs.
And of course I doubt anyone will speak like that asshole Thierry.

Why do you get so triggered over someone's comments in an interview? He is not forcing us to buy his watches.

[Bearxj86]

Originally Posted by nachopc

I have to disagree, I prefer Patek all the way, AP is continually delivering limited edition of watches, last one …..one for JM.
Not to mention the ambassadors they have…….


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Be careful my friend. You might get run over by my limited edition cybertruck. I kid I kid.




In all seriousness, with AP you do need to dig into their archives for more model diversity. l I do like Patel’s grand comps and complications a lot - many variants and case designs and shapes. It has that leg up on AP. Still dreaming of a 5971p :O


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[ts3]

Originally Posted by Divingdeep87

As a VIP at an AP House and a Patek Boutique in terms of event and customers relationship I actually find AP superior - the last 6 months they have really upped there game for events and stuff like that. Going for a whisky tasting event at AP next month, last month was a "after work party" Pretty cool - My last PP event was this summer seeing new watches and hearing the minute repeaters.. Also kind of cool - but AP is really ahead at the moment.

Great if you like these events. Personally, I couldn't care less. My Patek AD invited me time and again over the years but I couldn't bother making the two hour drive. More efficient to fly to Geneva as they have pretty much the whole catalogue available to see. No more AD invitations though as they are no Patek AD anymore.

[enjoythemusic]

Maybe it's time to expand to other independents. There and many choices, including customization. Perhaps this all is really a blessing towards expanding one's collection.

[Rollieo]

Wow, the Cubitius release has really soured opinions of Patek.Aside from it being a bit large and overpriced, I actually quite like it.

With that said, Patek vs AP. It’s not even a comparison. You can compare the Nautilius and the RO, but the two brands are hardly even worth comparing. OP your post is so far from reality, really no need to say more than what others have already pointed out.

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Today there are 159 Patek models available. 28 (18%) are Nautilus and 20 (13%) are Aquanaut. Total 31% of Patek catalog are Sport Patek. By any definition that's not a 1-watch company.

Comparatively at AP, there are 214 models today, which comprise of 131 (61%) RO and 38 (18%) ROO. Total 79% of AP collection are either RO and ROO. The concept is based on ROO too but I did not include... I leave it to you to draw a conclusion.

I'm certain Patek can sell more Nautilus and Aquanaut if they want to but they keep it to 31% only. Is that considered "worse position than AP"? In my view Patek can do that only from a position of strength. You see happy incomings of chrono, annual calendar, calatrava, grand comp and worldtime regularly here.

And there are comments about dress Patek below retail, but that situation is similar to 99.99% of watches in the market. Many of my watches are below market but I buy them to enjoy and wear. It doesn't lower the intrinsic quality of my watches.

Originally Posted by kaiserphoenix

Im sorry OP, and this is not a personal attack, as everyone is entitlted to have and share their opinions here so I will as well. But this is total b*llocks mate.

Now putting is back to watches, AP does the Royal Oak really well. But even the RO, they rarely ever innovate in their movements for example. For how many decades are they gonna churn out that tired and old perpetual module? Patek has 3 different perpetuals in their line up from the 240 based derivates to the triple window, to the manual wound.perpetual chronograph. AP uses the same old thin and fragile QP movement in every single one, INCLUDING their Code 11. What about their 3 hand and Chrono movmeents? They still cant get an inhouse chronograph movement to be thin in 2024, whereas Patek has Chronographs, Annual Calendar Chronographs, Perpetual Chronographs, Perpetual SPLIT chronogrpahs list goes on.

AP is not really a WATCH MAKER in that respect. They manufacture EXCELLENT cases and bracelets and they are beautiful. But most of their movements are basic and average (NOTE I DO NOT INCLUDE THE RENAUD e PAPI stuff here) or stuff in the Concept because they are concepts and lets be honest, most of them are not very wearable in size or availability.

Im not D*ssing AP. They are great at what they do. But Patek are in a different league mate.

[Gelateria]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Why do you get so triggered over someone's comments in an interview? He is not forcing us to buy his watches.

Of course but can we not criticise TS when he'd bringing down the brand?
Like football, no ones bigger than the club. You cannot excuse what he's said.
Hey I'm on pps side comparing to ap mate you don't have to be so defensive even if you're a treasured vip there

[8bc8]

Originally Posted by nachopc

I have to disagree, I prefer Patek all the way, AP is continually delivering limited edition of watches, last one …..one for JM.
Not to mention the ambassadors they have…….


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The ambassadors have single handedly brought down the brand for me - absolute joke


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[bob101]

I felt when AP went to the boutique only business model they were very keen to suggest models to you even that you hadn’t expressed an interest in. If you passed on pieces such as code 59 chronograph or oversized offshores you wouldn’t hear from them again. That was my personal experience but I remember when you could just walk in and get a Royal Oak and didn’t feel pressure to buy anything they proposed to you. As I wouldn’t play their game they wouldn’t offer me the few pieces that I had expressed interest in or any new pieces after that. No problem, I was happy to stick to other brands.

[Gamut]

I wonder why Patek doesn't shift to boutique only business model like some other brands.

May be to keep the dirty work of filtering customers according to purchase history out of their hands?

[Fla Gert]

For me, i find AP far more exciting, youthful, fresh design. Their RO is THE sports watch, far superior to the Nautilus, which in comparison looks old and stuffy. The PP mid range complications are not worth the money, over-priced for what they are. Stamped “carbon“ dials look cheap, finishing is not great. Thats why they all trade for cents on the dollar in the 2ndary market. Even the flagship 5270 is not well designed or well finished for its price range. Far inferior to previous 5970.You have to get min 5204 or 5370 to get proper patek finishing. Anything below $300k AP reigns supreme. Their QP RO is legendary, smacks any PP QP at the same price range.

[rg9390]

I was open to both brands when I became serious about watch collecting. I tried to consolidate my Panerai, IWC, and sports model JLC during the hype in 2021 for a 2nd hand 2011 ROO, I thought I made the right choice, and have my first of the holy trinity.

I made a 'mistake' by taking the ROO to an AP boutique and asking for a new strap (as it was second-hand, I felt having a brand new strap was going to make me wear a newer watch). At the same time, register interest in other ROOs and ROs. I gave them my business card, which back then, I was a CFO of a small listed company so I doubt my 'background' will discredit the brand.

I heard nothing from AP for about a year and a half, and in late 2022, through a VIP program at a shopping mall where there is an AP lounge, I went back to AP and further added my interest to AP, and is willing to try for a Code 11.59.

Fast forward to today, I have heard nothing from them, despite my peers getting ROO and RO already on their wrists.

On the other hand, I blindly walked into a PP to express my interest in Calatrava and 5167, and I got the first Calatrava (6119R) within a week and recently got the 6007G, which I thought it was a good daily wear - both watch within a time frame of one year. The PP AD has reassured me the 5167 won't be too long, and that they did not offer me to 'journey' on with other things I don't want.

From the above, I think AP with the non-resell policy, or for me, buying a 2nd hand (10+year old) watch for over 3 years and ignoring a watch enthusiast... I think that's just disrespectful.

Despite I do see AP's marketing seemed to be innovative, any watch I will be getting going forward will be PP or VC from personal experience.

[Uros]

Have enormous respect for Patek but mainly their compmicated watches on leather straps. Looking to add 5270p at some point although think retail price close to 200k eur is idiotic. high retail prices ruined a lot of PP offerings, hard to pay close to 100k and leave the store with 30 percent haircut even with no intention to ever sell the watch, its like buying sports car wich depreciate. Would always take RO instead of Nautilus and Aquanaut does nothing for me, probably ok at retail some fun version. AP ceramic watches with durability etc really lifted the bar I think. Plus with sports watches hype no wonder AP has higher sales despite less diversified portfolio.

But both brands are at top of their game and have no worries they will continue to be successful.


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[kaiserphoenix]

Originally Posted by Gamut

I wonder why Patek doesn't shift to boutique only business model like some other brands.

May be to keep the dirty work of filtering customers according to purchase history out of their hands?

I think so as it’s kind of a double edged sword. When your sailing high like AP was in 2021-2022, you can afford to cut ADs and black list clients left and right and you will never run out of business. However as the enthusiasm for watches in general slowly wanes off and because you’ve alienated loads of clients both new and existing, whilst lacking the distribution, it could bite you in the back. Patek otoh sort of turns a blind eye to this whole thing and just quietly chugs along and whilst it’s abit annoying that ur destiny is sort of tied to the AD and not the “brand” (until ur VvIP and know TS personally)it can be a better approach in a down market. Who knows.

[pam66]

Originally Posted by Fla Gert

For me, i find AP far more exciting, youthful, fresh design. Their RO is THE sports watch, far superior to the Nautilus, which in comparison looks old and stuffy. The PP mid range complications are not worth the money, over-priced for what they are. Stamped “carbon“ dials look cheap, finishing is not great. Thats why they all trade for cents on the dollar in the 2ndary market. Even the flagship 5270 is not well designed or well finished for its price range. Far inferior to previous 5970.You have to get min 5204 or 5370 to get proper patek finishing. Anything below $300k AP reigns supreme. Their QP RO is legendary, smacks any PP QP at the same price range.

i couldn't agree more. except of a few rare handcraft models below 300K euros there is nothing special in the PP collection under 5370P level. there are some nice models but nothing that other brands like VC, ALS and AP cannot do.
and worse, the design flaws have accumulated in the recent years, where TS has produced some really questionable models.

[Paul C]

Out of the Holy Trinity, AP's logo is not iconic, it just says AP