Vintage rolex- provenance and papers

[Frosty]

When I got my “matt dial Pepsi GMT 16750 with all the goodies” from Nick (Greekbum), having the paperwork was of major importance to me.

Then I came across a really nice 1675 matte dial GMT without the paper work. Somehow, the paperwork did not matter and the watch did. It had been serviced by Dalton and was authentic.

[mistral]

Originally Posted by QueueCumber

If the dial and case are in excellent enough condition, replacement parts or movements can be found. Excellent condition dials/cases are far less in number versus available movements for scrounging Rolex sports model movement parts.

Might be true for SD,Subs,GMT and other non Daytona watches but try finding replacement parts for your Daytona PN. Some of these Original Rolex parts are obsolete or very scarce. Several years ago my watchmaker had very difficult time sourcing original Rolex ratchet wheel for my 6239 PN.

Since our movements are Rolex modified Valjoux movements I suppose Valjoux (non Rolex) parts can be used as replacement; these should be plentiful since these parts were used by other watch manufacturers.

My PN goes for regular service maintenance to prevent wear and tear on parts.

[Mark020]

1971? You're old :-)

1971 GMT

1971 DJ

1971 GMT

1971 Speedy

[sdwtchlvr]

The idea of having papers is nice and can add some value but for the majority of serious collectors, I would say condition and originality of the watch come first and papers/complete set second...definitely an added bonus but it would be silly to consider that a deal breaker if the watch measures up to your standards and is original. Sure there are collectors that only consider complete sets but those are in the minority. And keep in mind that vintage papers can be faked and have been for years. There are tons of fake blank Rolex certificates floating out there.

Whether one should prefer a vintage watch that hasn't been serviced vs. a watch that has been serviced regularly over the years totally depends on the watch. But an un-serviced vintage watch shouldn't scare any serious collector away and if anything would be a bit sought after I would think. If you take a 1680 that has been serviced several times over it's life, the likelihood of it receiving replacement dial/hands/insert is more likely than if it were un-serviced. The crystal/crown have more to do with water resistance so it's more common for those to be changed over the years. Further, the case may show some natural wear with an un-serviced watch but at least the lines will be true and not polished down over the years. As far as being concerned about a big service bill? If the watch is all original paying an extra few hundred dollars for some new gears or jewels shouldn't matter too much...depends on the watch of course.

[Roger_Smith]

This topic is exactly what I'm contemplating......found a great 1675 that checks all the boxes for me but it comes with boxes and papers. This is going to be a daily wear (so no safe queen collection piece) so I'm trying to justify if it's worth the extra 2.5-3k just for papers when I don't really have a strong need for it for my personal collecting issues.

[wallasey runner]

Originally Posted by Roger_Smith

This topic is exactly what I'm contemplating......found a great 1675 that checks all the boxes for me but it comes with boxes and papers. This is going to be a daily wear (so no safe queen collection piece) so I'm trying to justify if it's worth the extra 2.5-3k just for papers when I don't really have a strong need for it for my personal collecting issues.

I notice that was your first post, so welcome Roger.

The obvious question is why pay that 2.5k to 3k for the papers if they are not a must have for you. Why not shop around and try and find a cheaper example without the papers.

[Roger_Smith]

Hey Ken,

Yes it is and thanks for the welcome :)

You know, you're exactly right but it's hard having patience! I've only begun to look for the right GMT for about 2-3 months, but I'm sure a couple of us around here can agree when you want a watch and have your eyes set on one you want it as soon as possible.

[wallasey runner]

Originally Posted by Roger_Smith

Hey Ken,

Yes it is and thanks for the welcome :)

You know, you're exactly right but it's hard having patience! I've only begun to look for the right GMT for about 2-3 months, but I'm sure a couple of us around here can agree when you want a watch and have your eyes set on one you want it as soon as possible.

I appreciate your dilema, if it is the watch for you it is difficult to walk away. Why not chat to the seller and try to negotiate a better price. There might be a deal to be had, at the end of the day there are plenty of used watches for sale and the guy with cash is king - i am sure he will knock something off.

Alternately, get a few images and ask the forumites what they think.

[Roger_Smith]

Thank you for the great advice Ken, I will definitely do that my friend.

[QueueCumber]

Originally Posted by wallasey runner

You don't want much do you - i am surprised you are not insisting on NOS that has sat in the back of a jewellers shop for 50 years without ever being taken out of the box. Good luck on trying to find these incredible condition watches that never seem to have been used, the rest of us rely on buying from trusted sources with exceptional reputations and will tell us everything we need to know about the vintage watch that we are considering buying.

A good service record shows that a watch has been looked after. We are all different and look at things differently. I am happier knowing that my DRSD has regularly been in and out of Rolex for a service rather than buying a robust watch with no service history and hoping for the best.

If you are correct, why do people go on so much about servicing watches every 4 to 7 years. Might as well save a few quid and not bother.

Nice ad hominem attack and straw man argument. I guess if you can't win the argument your best bet is to attack me, change the topic slightly and refute your own point (not mine), and repeat your same point again.

BTW, what is it with people that join forums and suddenly believe themselves instant experts?

[QueueCumber]

Originally Posted by mistral

Might be true for SD,Subs,GMT and other non Daytona watches but try finding replacement parts for your Daytona PN. Some of these Original Rolex parts are obsolete or very scarce. Several years ago my watchmaker had very difficult time sourcing original Rolex ratchet wheel for my 6239 PN.

Since our movements are Rolex modified Valjoux movements I suppose Valjoux (non Rolex) parts can be used as replacement; these should be plentiful since these parts were used by other watch manufacturers.

My PN goes for regular service maintenance to prevent wear and tear on parts.

Would you pass up an otherwise perfect Paul Newman 6239 or 6241 Daytona at a very good price (assuming you have the resources to afford it) because the service history is non-existent or a part may need to be sourced to get it running?

[cvhjh]

Papers can also be faked, especially the older ones.

[T<25]

Paper is an nice addition but not a deal breaker for me if the watch itself is in great shape.

[wallasey runner]

Originally Posted by QueueCumber

Nice ad hominem attack and straw man argument. I guess if you can't win the argument your best bet is to attack me, change the topic slightly and refute your own point (not mine), and repeat your same point again.

BTW, what is it with people that join forums and suddenly believe themselves instant experts?

I am no expert and this was certainly no attack on you - just someone with a different opinion to yours and because i have been on this forum for less time with less posts than you, you claim that i believe myself to be an expert.

I would say that when you resort to insults you my friend have lost any moral high ground.

[QueueCumber]

Originally Posted by wallasey runner

I am no expert and this was certainly no attack on you - just someone with a different opinion to yours and because i have been on this forum for less time with less posts than you, you claim that i believe myself to be an expert.

I would say that when you resort to insults you my friend have lost any moral high ground.

Absolutely you made an attack on me, as per your "you don't want much do you" tirade. Don't piss on my head and say it is raining.

As per my question about instant experts, it was a simple question, but if you felt it applied to you then you must have felt there was some truth to it. If the shoe fits wear it. Not that it matters much, since you had already lost that moral high ground when you made the ad hominem attack...

[Old Expat Beast]

This is getting childish.

[QueueCumber]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

This is getting childish.

[Vincent65]

Originally Posted by QueueCumber

[mistral]

Originally Posted by QueueCumber

Would you pass up an otherwise perfect Paul Newman 6239 or 6241 Daytona at a very good price (assuming you have the resources to afford it) because the service history is non-existent or a part may need to be sourced to get it running?

No; I'd buy it.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

This is getting childish.

Agreed

We can have differing points of view, makes for a lively discussion. If we all thought the same, it'd be a pretty boring forum.

[wallasey runner]

Originally Posted by QueueCumber

Absolutely you made an attack on me, as per your "you don't want much do you" tirade. Don't piss on my head and say it is raining.

As per my question about instant experts, it was a simple question, but if you felt it applied to you then you must have felt there was some truth to it. If the shoe fits wear it. Not that it matters much, since you had already lost that moral high ground when you made the ad hominem attack...

Okay, i will answer the question directly, NO i am not an expert. I can certainly hold my own on any discussions about vintage sea-dwellers having done extensive research before buying mine, but ask me about a model that i am not really interested in and I will be the first to admit that my knowledge will be limited.

Equally, length of time on the forum and numbers of posts does not make one an expert either. If newer members have a differing opinion to you then so be it, it does not make them right or wrong or indeed experts - it just means that they have a different opinion to you.

[QueueCumber]

Originally Posted by Vincent65

You took the high ground where I didn't. BUT, I know what you really wanted to do....

[Vincent65]

Originally Posted by QueueCumber

You took the high ground where I didn't. BUT, I know what you really wanted to do....

[wallasey runner]

Sorry, you have completely lost me, no idea what you are going on about.

[DiamondJack]

It's all just personal preference, nothing more and nothing less........I just like having full sets, they are harder to find, take more searching down and require the building of relationships and contacts to source. I don't just want to acquire lots of watches, I want something that has history and an identifiable past as well as being as perfect a specimen as I can find.

It would be much easier just to buy the first nice piece that came along....much easier.....but for me the search and eventual success is what I'm interested in. I am not too worried about the service history although I clearly prefer less meddling by Rolex since they will replace parts and therefore the likelihood of the watch being altered is much greater with every service. A prime example is the Red Sub...... Anyone who took a Red Sub in for a service after 1974/5 with a dial issue would, more than likely, be offered the "new" white sub dial.....crowns would be replaced, cases polished, hands replaced etc etc. So as QC has stated, the less times the watch has been in for a service, the less likelihood there is of replacement parts being used.

Simple laws of supply and demand mean it costs more to acquire these pieces (often referred to as safe queens) because there are far less of them out there. But, as others have mentioned, the watch has to take priority and, because of this, the requirement to find a full set with a perfect watch makes it even more difficult to acquire such pieces. And so the hunt goes on......

[Mick P]

Chaps

I have three Rolex, two have their original papers and one doesn't.

To be honest the original papers are an irrelevance to me. They are dead easy to forge and the most important document is a recent receipt of service from Rolex or an AD that can be readily verified.

Regards

Mick

[greg35]

Mark020= wow, a great collection.. the DJ and the Omega speedy..are on the hit list.. gotta start somewhere...:-)

[bluecat128@mac.com]

Originally Posted by Tools

You are unnecessarily worrying yourself. Rolex does not come with "papers" that prove it is a Rolex nor establish a pedigree like your favorite puppy. It's a game/sport.

Some like the adventure of having all the bits including outdated warranty sheets, a receipt if it's there, little tags, etc. Some will pay extra for these and if they can be proven to be original to the watch can fetch sky high premiums.. But those "papers" need to be authenticated as carefully as the watch. Many novice are like you so there is a huge black market faking papers and tags, and less than honest sellers scrounging those things to make the package more attractive for those seeking them..

But still, they do not authenticate your watch. If all you want is a watch to wear and enjoy you can forego these items that usually fill empty space and little else.

Use a reliable source for your watch and then solicit your own independent authentication if you want piece of mind.

Jaeger LeCoutre offers a service, a "EXTRACT FROM THE ARCHIVES"
Our Heritage service can issue an archive extract with the original technical details pertaining to your timepiece, at your request and based on the details you supply to us. This extract from the archives can only be provided for watches or clocks that are more than twenty years old (Jaeger LeCoultre).

Omega; ORDER AN EXTRACT, Omega has created a special online service for watch enthusiasts who would like to know more about the production history of their OMEGA timepiece made before 2000. There is a fee, a certificate will be made (this could have changed, due to high demand).

My hope is that Rolex will offer such a service, to help keep the Rolex "DNA" legitimate and help Rolex Enthusiasts with their estates and heirs.

Warm regards,
HHI (16233, 16234, 114270)
Many others (JLC Q3908420), Omega Seamaster cal.563, Nomos, many others