Flipping watches

[K1Mac]

Originally Posted by skiahh

OK, let me toss another hypothetical in here, mostly because I doubt it'll happen, but who knows?

Let's say you asked an AD you've done business with in the past, but who is out of state, to put you on a list for a hard to get watch (i.e. Daytona, SkD blue) that you have not been able - for obvious reasons - to see in person or try on. They call with one of the watches for you and, of course, you buy it. Once it arrives and you try it on, you decide it doesn't suit you. Is selling it at that point "flipping" it (maybe you opt to maximize the profit, maybe you add a "fair" markup and list in the classifieds here; either way)? Or, to avoid the ire of the interwebz, are you stuck with said watch?

Having just got the call last week from my AD for a 11610LV I was delighted, however I'm not local to my AD. I was having a new car delivered and would be passing and I called them to say I'd have it collected by my Brother'n'law's father who was passing and would come in with ID.
I was then told that all transactions must be Face to Face stipulated by Rolex. So I made alternative arrangements to collect it in person. During collection, all stickers were removed in front of me and my Warrenty paperwork is held for 12months and I have a photocopy, again something that is apparently now stipulated by Rolex????

all to deter resellers!

[Mystro]

Money always screws up every hobby. I wonder if our hoby would be better if the resale and popularity of Rolex wasn’t so high? Money tends to screw up a hobby and shift the focus to a commodity exchange. I own other wonderful brands and the enviorment of owners are not so focused on money but the watch and design. The resale values might not be as good but who cares??? I guess the purest luxury purchase is when you don’t care about the money or resale value and are only focused on the enjoyment of the item.

[~JJ]

What’s the upside?
A) Spend 10k to make $500-$1,000 and deal with the risk of handeling a large transaction with a complete stranger. More times you do this then greater the risk, see Watchout section.

B) ADs don’t count hard to get pieces toward your VIP account, this is saved for PM/slower moving pieces. In fact some AD rotate who they give hot pieces to in order to spread the love.

C) Enthusiasts are hawks and you will get spotted as a flipper and may not get a lot of love on the boards.

D) $$ will kill your interests in a hobby since you will be thinking as an investor vs. appreciating all aspects of chasing and owning a piece.

E) Unusually hot markets will go cold, what will you do with inventory during the change.

[ap1]

We all adjust to the prevailing market environment, what other choice is there. What goes up, will mean revert. Quite certain of that.

[tmo8320]

So many words...

I see the watch.
I buy my watch.
I wear my watch.

End of story.
There is no part IV


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[twitch54]

Originally Posted by skiahh

OK, let me toss another hypothetical in here, mostly because I doubt it'll happen, but who knows?

Let's say you asked an AD you've done business with in the past, but who is out of state, to put you on a list for a hard to get watch (i.e. Daytona, SkD blue) that you have not been able - for obvious reasons - to see in person or try on. They call with one of the watches for you and, of course, you buy it. Once it arrives and you try it on, you decide it doesn't suit you. Is selling it at that point "flipping" it (maybe you opt to maximize the profit, maybe you add a "fair" markup and list in the classifieds here; either way)? Or, to avoid the ire of the interwebz, are you stuck with said watch?

yes, otherwise you're considered foolish, stupid, whatever for making such a purchase .........

[Harry-57]

Originally Posted by directioneng

I only buy watches I like.

I have bought 100+ over the past 50 years.

I have given many to family and friends but have never sold or traded one.

YMMV.

This is my position too. Apart from the 100+ part.

[clb521]

Originally Posted by beshannon

You don't really like watches now do you.

1st off. Yes I do like watches. Like I said I am not a flipper and I don't think i would want to start.

I knew this thread would generate some hatred.

Most of you are seeing this as "if i sell something for profit, therefore i am a bad person or bad for the hobby."

What I am saying if I am able to get a watch which I know someone here on the forum may want. What is the harm of getting it for them? Is the making a small and I do mean small profit the whole problem for most of you?

Keep in mind if at the end of the day all I would make on helping someone out is $300 or $400 for my time I have better ways of doing so. Its not like I am making a killing on the sale.

The small amount of money made is only helping to compensate for the time used to purchase the watch, hold on to it for a certain time period and then sell it for a few bucks more than what i paid to someone that wants the watch.

If you look at the price I used in the 1st post of this thread. The TS selling is only making about $600 on his sale. He is making his money in volume since he is a dealer who probably has alot of money invested in inventory at any one point. I would not even consider that.

I admire anyone will to purchase something decide he doesnt like it and then sell it for no profit. Most people in this world dont think like that.

Buying and trading things in other hobbys is very common. Why is it looked down on by so many on this forum?

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[watchwatcher]

Originally Posted by S/Z

You've put a lot of thought and effort into this "theoretical" exercise for someone "not planning on doing this"

Uh huh.

[Fleetlord]

Originally Posted by clb521

1st off. Yes I do like watches. Like I said I am not a flipper and I don't think i would want to start.

I knew this thread would generate some hatred.

Most of you are seeing this as "if i sell something for profit, therefore i am a bad person or bad for the hobby."

What I am saying if I am able to get a watch which I know someone here on the forum may want. What is the harm of getting it for them? Is the making a small and I do mean small profit the whole problem for most of you?

Keep in mind if at the end of the day all I would make on helping someone out is $300 or $400 for my time I have better ways of doing so. Its not like I am making a killing on the sale.

The small amount of money made is only helping to compensate for the time used to purchase the watch, hold on to it for a certain time period and then sell it for a few bucks more than what i paid to someone that wants the watch.

If you look at the price I used in the 1st post of this thread. The TS selling is only making about $600 on his sale. He is making his money in volume since he is a dealer who probably has alot of money invested in inventory at any one point. I would not even consider that.

I admire anyone will to purchase something decide he doesnt like it and then sell it for no profit. Most people in this world dont think like that.

Buying and trading things in other hobbys is very common. Why is it looked down on by so many on this forum?

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What were you really hoping to accomplish with this thread?

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by clb521

What I am saying if I am able to get a watch which I know someone here on the forum may want. What is the harm of getting it for them? Is the making a small and I do mean small profit the whole problem for most of you?

that is the definition of a grey dealer.

Ill buy my watches from my AD without a middle man, thank you.

[clb521]

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

What were you really hoping to accomplish with this thread?

Accomplish? Nothing. As I stated I wanted to ask a question. I am not a flipper and I dont plan on starting.

I was interested in the math of what some people really make when buying and selling a watch and show its not that much. This is all relative. Some people can say 5-600 bucks isnt alot and others will say it is.

Maybe the reason I ask is because where in other hobbies where people buy, sell and trade like comic books or baseball cards it is not looked down upon like it is here in this hobby and I don't quite understand why.

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[MinMay]

Just know selling an expensive item is not an easy game.

1) ebay? - they favor buyers and they can claim you send them nothing. ebay fees 20% with paypal.
2) forum? - buyer can claim nothing in the package. expect a lawsuit
3) face to face - expect buyer to grab and run away with it or yet he has a gun
4) missing package - yuck...headache

Sounds fun for 500? Go for it...

I think everyone on this forum is a flipper in their lifetime. What's the difference if a person sold it after a year or after day 1? If it's sold for more than the actual cost, I see it being the same. Do whatever you want....

How many of them is going to sell me their Rolex submariner 1680 for $2000 MSRP? I don't think anyone will PM any time soon :)

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by clb521

\
Maybe the reason I ask is because where in other hobbies where people buy, sell and trade like comic books or baseball cards it is not looked down upon like it is here in this hobby and I don't quite understand why.

vintage stuff is always used so you are comparing apples and oranges. With new watches you are proposing removing AD inventory and assuming people will thank you for it. I dont want a "used" watch. I want it new and the warranty card in my name. Comic books and baseball cards are usually older collectable stuff and dont have named paperwork. Thats the problem.

[clb521]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

that is the definition of a grey dealer.

Ill buy my watches from my AD without a middle man, thank you.

I can understand and appreciate that.

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[clb521]

Originally Posted by MinMay

Do whatever you want....

Just know selling an expensive item is not an easy game.

1) ebay? - they favor buyers and they can claim you send them nothing. ebay fees 20% with paypal.
2) forum? - buyer can claim nothing in the package. expect a lawsuit
3) face to face - expect buyer to grab and run away with it or yet he has a gun

Sounds fun for 500? Go for it...

And that right there is probably why I wouldn't do it. Not worth the headache.

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[clb521]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

vintage stuff is always used so you are comparing apples and oranges. With new watches you are proposing removing AD inventory and assuming people will thank you for it. I dont want a "used" watch. I want it new and the warranty card in my name. Comic books and baseball cards are usually older collectable stuff and dont have named paperwork. Thats the problem.

Ok. I see your point.

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[yxc145]

Someone did exactly this last year. He was trying to buy all the popular models. Not necessary hard to get. I remember the person got a TT, white dial Sky-Dweller thinking he could flip it for a small profit or not lose any money. I remember the watch just couldn't get sold. Don't know if he ended up selling it at a loss.
I personally think the Grey dealers are getting discount even on the popular models and without tax (shipped out of state). That's why they are able to sell it at sticker + tax price or a little above it and make profit.
For private seller buying watches at MSRP + Tax, I don't think you are going to make any money. Unless you got those hard to get models.

Popular Models are like BLNR, Sub-Date, SD43, White Dial Sky-D,

Hard to get models are Daytona C, Blue Sky-D, SS Pepsi, Maybe the Sub-LV.

[American Jedi]

Originally Posted by clb521

What would you consider a modest amount?

For me time is valuable. That’s probably why I like lux watches.
It would depend on how much was devoted to selling the watch. The block of my time spent listing, answering questions, and making a special trip to the post office etc.

So depending on what I think it would take to sell it, 250-500. Of course if I passed it to say a friend (like at RedBar) I would change only what I payed.

[hbk25]

For most pieces it’s not really in our (non dealer) best interest to flip. But 100% there are a handful of references that I can see one would be hard pressed not to sell for profit. Daytona C for $5k+, SS BLRO for $10k+, PP 5711 for sheesh.

Now if you’re trying to play the long game with your AD, and buy a few pieces a year to eventually get those harder to get ones. Yeah, I can see that. But it only takes getting burned once by the Internet...

With that said, if my AD ever came through with a 116500 or a Nautilus, and I (got the privilege, haha) of paying retail, I’m wearing the dang watch.

Edit to answer OP’s question regarding profit. I believe you are entitled to as much as you can get for it. I don’t subscribe to the holier than though mentality. It’s a market right. List too high, it’ll sit. Don’t have a long standing history with TRF, it’ll sit.

[clb521]

I think the only way I would possibly do this was if I knew someone wanted one prior to me purchasing it and I trusted them enough to want to help them.

I am not that trusting of people and like its been said too much headache and risk.

Their are easier and better ways for me to make money now a days.

I did tell my wife that if or when i go that this would be the best place to sell the watches and get the most without too much risk.

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[thedips]

Hey clb if you can sell me a Daytona ceramic, blro steel, blue skydweller at 500$ over list I’ll promise to not sell it for a profit :)

[clb521]

Originally Posted by thedips

Hey clb if you can sell me a Daytona ceramic, blro steel, blue skydweller at 500$ over list I’ll promise to not sell it for a profit :)

LMAO. My ceramic daytona is staying with me for long time.

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[clb521]

Originally Posted by hbk25

For most pieces it’s not really in our (non dealer) best interest to flip. But 100% there are a handful of references that I can see one would be hard pressed not to sell for profit. Daytona C for $5k+, SS BLRO for $10k+, PP 5711 for sheesh.

Now if you’re trying to play the long game with your AD, and buy a few pieces a year to eventually get those harder to get ones. Yeah, I can see that. But it only takes getting burned once by the Internet...

With that said, if my AD ever came through with a 116500 or a Nautilus, and I (got the privilege, haha) of paying retail, I’m wearing the dang watch.

Edit to answer OP’s question regarding profit. I believe you are entitled to as much as you can get for it. I don’t subscribe to the holier than though mentality. It’s a market right. List too high, it’ll sit. Don’t have a long standing history with TRF, it’ll sit.

See I was thinking of is more of a "who is currently looking for what watch" type of list from a few members but in reality it would be difficult to manage and since most want the warranty card with their name on it (me included) it would be a very small group and not be worth the hassle. Thats why I mentioned before about a modest upcharge.

End of the day too much headache and hassle. In the end, every person should have their own search for getting their watches.

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[MinMay]

Originally Posted by clb521

LMAO. My ceramic daytona is staying with me for long time.

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I'll give you 3K above MSRP for the Daytona ceramic :)

And you're right, there are so many ways you can make 500 with 9K. It's stupid to put 9K into a watch if you're looking to make money. I'm sure you'll find better ways to make money work for you. You know a new Rolex submariner back in 1995 costs about $3500...is sold for for $6500 today? For 20 plus years, it appreciated 3000. That's pathetic.

[clb521]

Originally Posted by MinMay

I'll give you 3K above MSRP for the Daytona ceramic :)

And you're right, there are so many ways you can make 500 with 9K. It's stupid to put 9K into a watch if you're looking to make money. I'm sure you'll find better ways to make money work for you. You know a new Rolex submariner back in 1995 costs about $3500...is sold for for $6500 today? For 20 plus years, it appreciated 3000. That's pathetic.

Yeah unfortuantely i didnt pay retail for it. I had to trade two watches plus 1500 to get it.

Still love it though.

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[2nastie]

Whether you intended to propose/inquire/etc. on whether "flipping" a watch to "help" a collector, by definition any dollar/cents/pesos/yen over your cost on watch you had no intentions of keeping (which is MSRP + expenses ... i.e. shipping) you are a grey dealer/seller. That's called making a profit.

Is there something wrong with that? In reality no, your watch, your business, your risk. But perhaps you should have just ask whether it is frowned upon making a buck or two if you got a sought after watch and sold it to a member on the forum.

You are asking the wrong medium and forum and thus the response was as expected. Most individuals here are collectors first. This is our hobby and not a business. You are basically asking a member whether it is okay if you (a "fellow member and not a dealer") took "their" watch allocation and sold it back to them at $X more. I don't think that is your intention, but it would translate to saying something like that.

[scooba]

Originally Posted by clb521

Now before people start bashing me, I want to ask an honest question and see what everyone's opinion is.

If I or any other person on here is to but their names on the local AD lists for popular sports SS watches and they are able to get the watch at retail and they want to sell it without a huge price spike, what would you consider a fair mark up to sell it to a fellow forum member?

Also in looking at some of the current BNIB listings, some of the models are selling at very reasonable prices. For instance, their is a BNIB for a GMTIIC Batman for $10,495. Retail price for this watch is $8,950. Lets say your in CA (which is where I'm at) and you pay roughly 8% for tax. That means your out the door cost is $9,666. If your getting the full amount your asking and assume overnighting the watch insured is $100 then your profit is $729. And keep in mind this is a TS dealer so his profit may even be a little more. However lets just say for this discussion that this is a non watch dealer not making a living doing this. Would this be considered too much "profit" to ask for to provide a watch to someone who may otherwise be waiting months or years? If you consider this too much, what do you think a fair fee would be? $500, $400? What is considered an appropriate convenience fee?

Again, this is just a theoretical and I am not planning on doing this. But their is some benefit a person could get from this. If you purchase 1-2 watches a year at 10k average, this would start increasing your purchase volume from an AD which would give you the possibility of getting watches like the daytona.

The only down side I could possibly see is if the AD you purchase from found out and frowned upon you flipping but I would think most AD wouldn't care.

Also, I remember the thread from the newly joined person who got a daytona and bragged about it and flipped it and got severely bashed on here. I am not suggesting that at all.

Also, I am hoping this doesn't turn into a "people just getting into this hobby for a profit" bandwagon or "your doing this to just make money".

We all joined this forum because of our love of watches and the whole purpose of forums is to connect with people that have the same enjoyment and be able to network and at the same time help get a watch a little sooner than just putting your name on a list and just sitting back waiting.

Let the discussion begin.

This is a difficult question ,here is my experience first hand . My son bought a Watch last year and sold it with a drink added , Not for all the money , now the buyer then resold it for every penny it was worth , So ?

It is in my situation considered bad practice to sell to members on forums at inflated prices.

My eldest had a 116500 Black Dial BNIB last month ,He is 240lb and 6,3” and thought it looked silly , after advertising it decided to sell it to his uncle for family rates as it was suggested making money wasn’t correct , maybe it’s best to not sell to Forumites

[Robbyman]

I think you are on the wrong forum. Does the bay, not have anywhere you can frequent?

[josephvman]

Don’t quit your day job.