Authenticating Grey Market purchase

[Uggi]

The seller could be the greatest human on earth - you could be buying from Mother Theresa herself - but she wouldn't/couldn't know if a watch had been stolen at some point in its history, or if parts like links or screws had been swapped out.
But yeah I agree - it's always a good start if the seller seems nice.
Some posts in here were suggesting that if you "buy the seller" you'll be "fine". That is simply a blasé over-simplification.

[Andad]

Originally Posted by Boaters

To me buying the seller is ONE of the first steps in the vetting process. Thinking different Is what I would call silly.

I agree.

Unfortunately even on TRF there have been buyers who have ‘bought the seller’ only to find that the seller wasn’t ‘the seller’.

There are many more ways to protect yourself when buying any item..

[CactusTreeFiddy]

Thanks for a lot of great replies people

I didn't want to call out the "buy the seller" responses myself, but imo at best it's poor advice, and at worst it's suspicious. I agree they completely overlook the reality of buying online, which any GM buyer (of Rolexes at least) will have to stomach.

[OrangeSport]

Wrong Thread!
.please delete

[myporsche]

Some great advice here on this thread, too much trust on the grey sellers, they are just brokers. The small timers do very little due diligence, they just want to buy the right (easy) buyer and make their buck, I have had some bad experiences with small time but well known greys that post here as well. It is hard to prove and not worth pursuing but they were low/mid tier pieces. If I do have to buy from grey I would prefer to only buy from top 2-3 well known greys and new, that's just me as I don't want to be worrying or losing sleep on any small inconsistency, also the history of a watch is important to me. The situation is even more hairy with PM watches as there is more incentive to mess around with links, polish, refurbish, etc.

[travisb]

I could never imagine purchasing something if I questioned it's authenticity.

[Harry-57]

This question comes up regularly on the forum. There should be a number of threads to go through.

My AD will do this. I expect most will but I couldn't swear to it. AD/watchmaker authentication is a nice to have add on, but if you haven't bought the seller you should not have bought the watch.

I have bought two Rolex watches from grey dealers with good reputations. They were both models that my AD could not help me with. My AD offered to take the back off on both occasions. Not necessary really, but it was kind of them and it would have been silly to refuse.

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by CactusTreeFiddy

Apologies if this is a really basic question, but I've never done it before myself.

Say I buy a piece that's known for being faked on the grey market... Am I able to simply walk into a local AD and ask them if they can tell if it's real?

I figured if I don't have a purchase history with them, they may just outright refuse to help me out

many AD's who have a watchmaker on-site will help you.

Some wont though just because you are not their responsibility.

But .....

As has been said earlier .. Buy the seller.

i always have the rule ... If I am not 100% happy I walk or even run away from the seller. There are a few well known dealers who are totally 100% OK and you would have non fear at all. (DavidSW for example).

[kizerman]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

many AD's who have a watchmaker on-site will help you.

Some wont though just because you are not their responsibility.

But .....

As has been said earlier .. Buy the seller.

i always have the rule ... If I am not 100% happy I walk or even run away from the seller. There are a few well known dealers who are totally 100% OK and you would have non fear at all. (DavidSW for example).

This post has every cliche regarding grey market buying.

An AD won't notice if your PM links have been switched out with fakes. Most of them have never even heard of such a thing.

An AD would probably never notice if the movement were switched out with a fake.

Now pay attention here....

You are not buying the seller, you are buying the stranger who sold it to the seller.
DavidSW is a broker and is not cracking open case backs or weighing links, he's simply polishing them up and putting them up on his website.

Buyer beware.

[Rogerab]

So what makes one think ADs are the pinnacle of trust. It is a fact that some are selling brand new watches out the back door to well bankrolled greys. The knowledgable buyer must trust their experience across the spectrum of outlets. Plus, discontinued models, e.g. 16710, 116610LV, are only to be had on the secondary market. In all cases, some buyer beware instincts are needed and should not be relaxed when dealing with an AD.

[JRell]

Originally Posted by Rogerab

So what makes one think ADs are the pinnacle of trust. It is a fact that some are selling brand new watches out the back door to well bankrolled greys. The knowledgable buyer must trust their experience across the spectrum of outlets. Plus, discontinued models, e.g. 16710, 116610LV, are only to be had on the secondary market. In all cases, some buyer beware instincts are needed and should not be relaxed when dealing with an AD.

Brick and mortar, in-person, authorized Rolex dealer, that’s who I trust.

[scarlet knight]

Rolex has created an untenable situation for its ADs and their customers through the artificial stainless steel watch shortage situation. Fortunately for me, I have my fill of Rolexes, but for a ceramic Daytona. I am not going to pay a multiple of the MSRP for one.

There are plenty of other appealing brands.

I do agree that there are more issues with gray dealers than ADs and it may not even be the gray’s fault. Some sellers to the grays may be up to hard to detect no good.

[101031-28]

Truth is, the Rolex market has changed over the years. Between scary good counterfeits and the numerous scams going on, truly 'buyer beware' is the best advice, IMO. I can't stand the 'buy the seller' motto. A lot of greys and the so called TDs are simply resellers. They do not know enough nor do they have the expertise to analyze every single piece they get. Vintage may be a different story, but modern references do not get much vetting. At this point, the best option for peace of mind IS the authorized dealer.

[cht]

Originally Posted by kizerman

This post has every cliche regarding grey market buying.

An AD won't notice if your PM links have been switched out with fakes. Most of them have never even heard of such a thing.

An AD would probably never notice if the movement were switched out with a fake.

Now pay attention here....

You are not buying the seller, you are buying the stranger who sold it to the seller.
DavidSW is a broker and is not cracking open case backs or weighing links, he's simply polishing them up and putting them up on his website.

Buyer beware.

Absolutely agree.

The watch needs to go to RSC for authentication.

To the OP and others in this thread saying to go to an AD:
Keep in mind, the level of qualifications and ability of the AD's watchmaker (if they even have one) to identify a good fake is questionable at best. Even if they were Rolex trained (many are NOT), for many, that was a LOOOOOOONNNNNNGGGGGG time ago, well before the new super clones and fakes were conceived conceptually.
There is NO STANDARDIZED TRAINING/CERTIFICATION for them to keep up with the fakes.

[Marcjvr]

1. Pick a seller with a long track record of reliability ( a trusted seller on here, Bob’s, etc.)

2. Once you have identified a piece ask the seller what due diligence was performed to ensure the watch is 100% authentic and above board.

3. Let them know you will perform your own authenticity checks/homework and clarify with the seller what would be covered under any return/refund policy if something minor/major comes up

After that you have 3 options.

Walk away/buy it with peace of mind/buy it and send it to RSC for a service

[JRell]

Originally Posted by Marcjvr

1. Pick a seller with a long track record of reliability ( a trusted seller on here, Bob’s, etc.)

2. Once you have identified a piece ask the seller what due diligence was performed to ensure the watch is 100% authentic and above board.

3. Let them know you will perform your own authenticity checks/homework and clarify with the seller what would be covered under any return/refund policy if something minor/major comes up

After that you have 3 options.

Walk away/buy it with peace of mind/buy it and send it to RSC for a service

Sounds like a lot of work, on top of spending a premium, especially sending to RSC.

[tgoose1]

Originally Posted by kizerman

This post has every cliche regarding grey market buying.

An AD won't notice if your PM links have been switched out with fakes. Most of them have never even heard of such a thing.

An AD would probably never notice if the movement were switched out with a fake.

Now pay attention here....

You are not buying the seller, you are buying the stranger who sold it to the seller.
DavidSW is a broker and is not cracking open case backs or weighing links, he's simply polishing them up and putting them up on his website.

Buyer beware.

Absolutely correct!

[Harry-57]

Originally Posted by cht

Absolutely agree.

The watch needs to go to RSC for authentication.

To the OP and others in this thread saying to go to an AD:
Keep in mind, the level of qualifications and ability of the AD's watchmaker (if they even have one) to identify a good fake is questionable at best. Even if they were Rolex trained (many are NOT), for many, that was a LOOOOOOONNNNNNGGGGGG time ago, well before the new super clones and fakes were conceived conceptually.
There is NO STANDARDIZED TRAINING/CERTIFICATION for them to keep up with the fakes.

My AD has RSC facilities and accreditation. The watchmaker receives ongoing training by Rolex, is Rolex accredited and is up to date on all the technical bulletins.

You've obviously had some kind of bad AD experience of possibly encountered a really shoddy one. This doesn't give you an excuse to shit over all of them.

[Mystro]

There are no guarantees in life. That said, there’s no reason to be overly neurotic about this. If I buy a new/low mile RS GT3 from a exotic car broker, I am not cracking open the engine to make sure everything hasn’t been swapped out with aftermarket parts. Have some perspective and context.

[Longhorn]

some models may require more vetting than others. I'd be more wary of pieces like the hulk (116610LV), where you might get a franken watch with aftermarket bezel and dial that fetch a high premium; so the watch may check off a lot of boxes for case, bracelet, engraving, crystal, but get you on a couple parts.

If possible, spring the extra money for matching box and papers. RSC is the only sure fire way of authenticating a timepiece.As others have said, "buying the seller" is just one of your due diligence activities when buying on the grey market. But think of it more of clearing the hurdle of just not getting scammed altogether.

[Marcjvr]

Originally Posted by JRell

Sounds like a lot of work, on top of spending a premium, especially sending to RSC.

Almost as much work as visiting an AD once a week to “build and maintain a relationship”

[Polarexplorerii]

This is very interesting, CRM just released a video on youtube from IWJG where Carlos said that a FAKE Sub was sold 4 times within the dealers before it was caught!

[kizerman]

Also be aware that even when buying a stickered Rolex from a grey dealer you are still almost always the 3rd owner. Despite what many think, the grey dealers are not getting these pieces from AD's, they are brokers for flippers who want to remain anonymous so they can continue to get AD pieces.

If the TPG taught us anything it is that grey inventory comes from individuals, not out the back door of an AD. That may happen in some countries, but not many and not in the US. Greys pay a premium and make their money in volume.

[JRell]

Originally Posted by Marcjvr

Almost as much work as visiting an AD once a week to “build and maintain a relationship”

Who does that, do you? I sure don’t!

[IamJacky]

I support the "Buy the seller" method. Just be smart and don't be so greedy that's all.

I sort of understand why kizerman is so adamant about not buying grey, but in my perspective, as a business owner, I would never risk my entire reputation on selling a fake/flawed product just to make tiny amount of profit just as if a grey dealer would not dare selling watch with fake links.

We all make mistakes in life, or in business, so if I were the watch dealer who unwittingly sold a watch with fake links, then I'd compensate it, buy it back, I'd do anything to save the image, because the reputation supersedes anything, especially in these luxury goods world.

Having said that, I truly believe the trusted sellers because I know they won't risk their entire reputation on a small transaction, and even if they accidentally do, they'll do everything they can to remedy it.

[Marcjvr]

Originally Posted by JRell

Who does that, do you? I sure don’t!

Many cases of people on here visiting regularly as part of playing the game.

Life is short, I say contact a trusted seller on here and have an amazing watch on your wrist a day or 2 later.

DavidSW didn’t earn his Ferrari 458 Speciale by selling fake watches

[Bizcut1]

Originally Posted by kizerman

So wrong. Sorry but this makes me crazy. These "trusted " sellers are just guys who communicate well and ship on time. They do not and cannot vet pieces. Nor do they care.

Again, a good friend of mine bought from one of the most "trusted" sellers here only to find that 3 of the links on a a "new" piece had been switched out with fake links. This happens all the time but most never know.

Not saying the grey dealer was aware but that is the point. You never really know when the chain of custody is lengthened to 3 or more people.

Since this is a re-occurring topic, and a one-trick pony for you, I think it would be interesting to ask one of our well-known greys to respond to the "they do not and cannot vet (sic) pieces. Nor do they care."

So I will ask and report back with what they say...

[BLNR Nairobi]

Originally Posted by Polarexplorerii

This is very interesting, CRM just released a video on youtube from IWJG where Carlos said that a FAKE Sub was sold 4 times within the dealers before it was caught!

If that’s the case, just imagine what may be happening with STOLEN watches? If a fake piece of crap can do the rounds, what about a genuine but stolen watch?

[VacherObsessive]

Originally Posted by kizerman

If you buy outside of an AD, you get what you deserve.

So you’re saying once a Rolex leaves the AD it’s effectively worthless

[LC23]

Originally Posted by CactusTreeFiddy

Apologies if this is a really basic question, but I've never done it before myself.

Say I buy a piece that's known for being faked on the grey market... Am I able to simply walk into a local AD and ask them if they can tell if it's real?

I figured if I don't have a purchase history with them, they may just outright refuse to help me out

1. Pick a trusty grey dealer
2. AD will not be able to authenticate your watch on the spot, they will suggest for you to do an overhaul with RSC to actually authenticate (typically around $1k)

My opinion is to not go through all of that and buy through a trust worthy dealer. With the amount of fakes out there its hard to say unless you take it apart.