Vacheron Perceptions?

[raclaims]

Lange doesn't make the odysseus bracelets either...lots of brands do this...Lange only recently made a dial in house on their top of the line turbograph...

[Incroyable12]

In the past it was even more common.

Favre-Perret used to make cases for brands such as Patek, AP, VC as well as other lesser brands. Bracelets were made by Gay Freres.

In fact, if you pay attention many watches from the 1960s to the 1990s had a very similar design language despite being from different brands. A VC Perpetual Calendar from the '90s looks almost identical to one from AP, etc.

[Gebbeth]

Originally Posted by raclaims

Lange doesn't make the odysseus bracelets either...lots of brands do this...Lange only recently made a dial in house on their top of the line turbograph...

In some cases, Lange doesn't even make the case. One could argue that Lange is a movement and design house.

But man, do I love those watches.

[~JJ]

Seems to be gaining a lot of traction. I remember a 10 year period where VC was rarely talked about on this board. Momentum started gathering speed with the last overseas redesign and releasing new heritage models. I do think being a corporate owned business that was bought up makes the brand feel more like a licensing play vs being the real oldest watch company.

[raclaims]

This whole Richemont ownership thing always makes me laugh

How many people stopped buying Lamborghinis or Porsches when they were bought by VW group? In fact, the cars vastly improved (IMHO) under the guidance and IP sharing.

[djnick]

every week the same non-sense threads about resale value. If you are worried about resale then buy on the secondary where the depreciation has already hit

we should be happy that we can get most VC that arent overseas for retail or below

[Incroyable12]

Originally Posted by djnick

every week the same non-sense threads about resale value. If you are worried about resale then buy on the secondary where the depreciation has already hit

we should be happy that we can get most VC that arent overseas for retail or below

I'm not worried about resale value. In fact I only buy vintage or "neo-vintage" so retail prices are irrelevant to me.

What I'm interested in is why the brand suffers from such a weak perception and consequently low secondary market prices. You can basically buy many old Vacherons for under $10k often even under $5k.

[mickyd329]

I think it comes down to things.

1. Not much social media hype via celebrities.
2. Not an independent brand anymore.


Doesn't make it a lesser watch though. I found my VCO a bit underwhelming after the honeymoon phase and ended up moving from it, but that's just me and clearly subjective.

[ILoveFerrari]

Originally Posted by Incroyable12

I'm not worried about resale value. In fact I only buy vintage or "neo-vintage" so retail prices are irrelevant to me.

What I'm interested in is why the brand suffers from such a weak perception and consequently low secondary market prices. You can basically buy many old Vacherons for under $10k often even under $5k.

what is there to understand? The value of an item is dedicated by supply and demand. Many people explained it well. Low supply and low demand due to lack of social media hype. Aren't you glad that you can get a hand on the VC vintage watch because it is cheaper? If you know the value of the item to you and if it is way cheaper than you think, any real art collector will be simply esctatic and not say a word about it (unless authenticity is in doubt or source is illegal). Then once the art is collected, you will then try to create a buzz to bump up the price.

So I think your post come across disingenuous, if you truly are a VC vintage watch collector you say you are. If you are trying to bring down the price because you wanted to buy them cheaper, well I think you overestimated your efforts and underestimate the overall intelligence of this group.



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[Incroyable12]

Originally Posted by ilovegt

what is there to understand? The value of an item is dedicated by supply and demand. Many people explained it well. Low supply and low demand due to lack of social media hype. Aren't you glad that you can get a hand on the VC vintage watch because it is cheaper? If you know the value of the watch to you and if it is way cheaper, any real art collector will be simply esctatic and not say a word about it. Then once the art is collected, you will then try to create a buzz to bump up the price.

So I think your post come across disingenuous, if you truly are a VC vintage watch collector you say you are. If you are trying to bring down the price because you wanted to buy them cheaper, well I think you overestimated your efforts and underestimate the overall intelligence of this group.



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What I'm trying to understand is that why after more than a decade and despite many insider's attempts to promote VC it's still failed to take off. It can't be just lack of "hype" considering hype is a relatiely recent phenomenon. Antiquorum actually held two massive themed sales of VC in the early '90s which is as close to hype as you could get in those days.

Maybe it's just me but the beauty of old Vacheron pieces are so obvious that you really shouldn't need hype to see it so I'm sort of befuddled. I guess people are just more herd driven than I realized.

[ILoveFerrari]

Originally Posted by Incroyable12

What I'm trying to understand is that why after more than a decade and despite many insider's attempts to promote VC it's still failed to take off. It can't be just lack of "hype" considering hype is a relatiely recent phenomenon. Antiquorum actually held two massive themed sales of VC in the early '90s which is as close to hype as you could get in those days.

Maybe it's just me but the beauty of old Vacheron pieces are so obvious that you really shouldn't need hype to see it so I'm sort of befuddled. I guess people are just more herd driven than I realized.

then you are 10 years too late to ask this question, aren't you? lol

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[Incroyable12]

Originally Posted by ilovegt

then you are 10 years too late to ask this question, aren't you? lol

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Well it's still ongoing.

Hodinkee recently posted an article concerning auction insider's thoughts on the watch market and one of the people was still talking about how he feels Vacheron was so "undervalued".

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/wa...rection-prices

From Leigh Zagoory, VP of Watches at Sotheby's:

"If you like steel sport watches, I would say you should start looking out for Vacheron. It's a brand that's gone under-the-radar for so long, and we've been anticipating, waiting, and hoping for it to come back, and I think now is the moment"

[Incroyable12]

I've also talked to some dealers about this and some were dismissive of the brand's heritage department saying it was a joke.

[huncho]

i personally think the bracelet is ugly on the overseas and ruins the watch. something about it just looks off to me, i think it's the combination of no tapering and really small center links. just reminds me of the cheap AP homages you see on instagram. i think they look great on straps in comparison and their dials are incredible though

subjectivity aside, they're priced alongside AP and while it's understandable given the history, i think a lot of people prefer to go with AP in that price range. bad marketing doesn't help either, but i'm guessing marketing isn't their biggest priority

[Incroyable12]

Originally Posted by huncho

i personally think the bracelet is ugly on the overseas and ruins the watch. something about it just looks off to me, i think it's the combination of no tapering and really small center links. just reminds me of the cheap AP homages you see on instagram. i think they look great on straps in comparison and their dials are incredible though

subjectivity aside, they're priced alongside AP and while it's understandable given the history, i think a lot of people prefer to go with AP in that price range. bad marketing doesn't help either, but i'm guessing marketing isn't their biggest priority

Yes the Overseas bracelet references the Maltese cross logo too much. I find it rather cheesy looking.

[huncho]

Originally Posted by Incroyable12

Yes the Overseas bracelet references the Maltese cross logo too much. I find it rather cheesy looking.

the 222 is much better, but the 70k msrp is a giant turn off

[Incroyable12]

Originally Posted by huncho

the 222 is much better, but the 70k msrp is a giant turn off

I feel the 222 is essentially a niche piece.

It's just so '70s looking especially done up in yellow gold. I personally like it a lot as such but it definitely doesn't have the "timeless" nature of the Nautilus or RO.

[ILoveFerrari]

Originally Posted by Incroyable12

I feel the 222 is essentially a niche piece.

It's just so '70s looking especially done up in yellow gold. I personally like it a lot as such but it definitely doesn't have the "timeless" nature of the Nautilus or RO.

yes, you shall buy Nautilus or RO then, but you mentioned they are too expensive while you "contemplated" why it is so cheap for VC as an alternative, 10 years after the fact.

This is a classic example of cognitive dissonance.


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[Incroyable12]

Originally Posted by ilovegt

yes, you shall buy Nautilus or RO then, but you mentioned they are too expensive while you "contemplated" why it is so cheap for VC as an alternative, 10 years after the fact.

This is a classic example of cognitive dissonance.


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I was buying Royal Oaks when they were $8k and Nautiluses were $18k so not really. In fact I was buying salmon and Yves Klein dialed Royal Oaks when only Italians cared about them.

At this point I'll be glad never to see another steel Nautilus or Royal Oak again.

[gliazzurri]

Originally Posted by raclaims

This whole Richemont ownership thing always makes me laugh

How many people stopped buying Lamborghinis or Porsches when they were bought by VW group? In fact, the cars vastly improved (IMHO) under the guidance and IP sharing.

Excellent point

[MILGAUSS88]

Originally Posted by RolexSimon

Just try and get an Overseas in blue dial right now...........! My PP/VC dealer says he has the same number of request as he did for a Nautilus 15 years ago.

You do realize that 15 years ago you could buy a Nautilus from a gray dealer for $5'000 under retail.

[Pw92676]

Regardless of possession of a VC one’s collection, virtually every watch aficionado has some level of appreciation for the brand.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by pamy104

As a VC overseas owner, I was quite disappointed recently to find out they do not make their cases nor their bracelets. Pretty much just movement and. Buying and assembling everything.

Drop my view of the brand.

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They outsourced the Overseas movements too until the most recent generation (3rd generation).

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by raclaims

This whole Richemont ownership thing always makes me laugh

How many people stopped buying Lamborghinis or Porsches when they were bought by VW group? In fact, the cars vastly improved (IMHO) under the guidance and IP sharing.

Originally Posted by gliazzurri

Excellent point

How has VC improved under Richemont ownership?

I'm open to your thinking, but I'm skeptical about the watch-car analogy. I think they are two totally different beasts with very little in common vis-a-vis how/why they "improve." Why would IP sharing improve something like a watch that is revered for its artistic/visual quality versus something like a car that would gain benefits from improved performance?

[Incroyable12]

What's an example of Vacheron's bad marketing?

It strikes me as kind of a stodgy brand.

[ts3]

Originally Posted by Incroyable12

I feel the 222 is essentially a niche piece.

It's just so '70s looking especially done up in yellow gold. I personally like it a lot as such but it definitely doesn't have the "timeless" nature of the Nautilus or RO.

Not sure I agree.

In my eyes the 222 had the "timeless" nature of the RO and I think it was more timeless than the Nautilus. It looks dated because, unlike the others, it was discontinued decades ago which tricks us into thinking "old 1970s watch" rather than "timeless design". I am confident the 222 wouldn't be perceived as dated had Vacheron done the AP and Patek thing and continued to produce the 222 throughout with minor updates now and then.

Instead Vacheron decided to reinvent the wheel several times over...

[Incroyable12]

Originally Posted by ts3

Not sure I agree.

In my eyes the 222 had the "timeless" nature of the RO and I think it was more timeless than the Nautilus. It looks dated because, unlike the others, it was discontinued decades ago which tricks us into thinking "old 1970s watch" rather than "timeless design". I am confident the 222 wouldn't be perceived as dated had Vacheron done the AP and Patek thing and continued to produce the 222 throughout with minor updates now and then.

Instead Vacheron decided to reinvent the wheel several times over...

I actually feel like the IWC Yacht Club and Ingenieur have aged better than the 222 if we're going to bring up other higher end sport watch designs from that era.

The distinctive scalloped bezel of the 222 sort of dates it in a way.

It seems like Vacheron couldn't quite figure out a luxury sports model strategy since they also had the lesser known 2215 which is very dated looking.

[DonLee]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

How has VC improved under Richemont ownership?

I'm open to your thinking, but I'm skeptical about the watch-car analogy. I think they are two totally different beasts with very little in common vis-a-vis how/why they "improve." Why would IP sharing improve something like a watch that is revered for its artistic/visual quality versus something like a car that would gain benefits from improved performance?

Well, they've made a very sought after and successful Overseas line.
The 3rd gen, as you said, is an inhouse movement, and It's absolutely gorgeous. Better than the 41mm RO, or the Aquanaut/Nautilus.

The Historique American is a stunning modernized revamp.
More recently they've started to follow AP's moves and go in-house. And the brand is gaining traction on social media.

[Giangos]

VC “suffers” from a lack of hype. But hype isn’t what creates the oldest continual watch maker in the world.

Hype is what sells uninspiring and unimaginative Royal Oaks and convinces people that AP is a high horology manufacturer.

I can live without the hype. Just give me any of these:

Twin beat perpetual calendar
Patrimony perpetual calendar
Traditionelle perpetual calendar chrono
222
Metiers d’Art Victoire de Samothrace
Tourbillon skeleton
Any Skeleton really, ultra thin! Cmon!

I hate to channel my inner teenager, but “like wtf are we even talking about here?”

“ I don’t like richemont” “too many Maltese crosses” “greys don’t promote them” “resale not great” etc etc.

Ridiculous commentary that downplay the absolute significance of probably the most sophisticated manufacturer ever.

I haven’t even mentioned Les Cabinotiers.

Need some more convincing, just search for any thread started by raclaims

VC sits in very limited company at top of the food chain, convince me otherwise. I can wait. I have nothing on for the next 20 years.


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[Guybrush]

I owned an 82172 Traditionelle in white gold for a while and it was the most finely-made thing I've ever owned. You could feel and see the quality from every angle--the movement was mesmerizing. The only reason I sold it was because I decided that it was too dressy for my lifestyle and I wasn't able to wear it as often as I wanted--instead I wanted a pm piece with a full bracelet that I could wear as a daily, so I went for a preowned Day-Date with a wg oyster. Still love the VC but I haven't regretted the move.

I took a $7k hit on the VC after less than a year of ownership. I tried to move it privately--zero interest. Ended up selling to a very well-known and respected preowned dealer who worked with me a little on the pricing.

I don't entirely get it either: VC is making next-level watches, especially when it comes to displayable hand-finished movements and minimalist dial design. To my mind, their closest analogue is Lange. I suppose it’s partly down to the fact that (like Lange) VC excels at dress watches and those aren't hyped right now—and the Overseas doesn't have as much mass appeal (blue dial notwithstanding) as the other sporty offerings from PP and AP. (FWIW, I don't find any of those SS watches attractive. I'm on the list for the black and silver OS and expect to be offered one soon, but I will probably pass on it. Just want to see it in the metal first.)

If dressy watches were as hyped as SS sports watches, I bet VC would be a much hotter brand. But I guess I'm glad they aren't. Makes them more obtainable.