32xx movement problem poll and data thread

[robinmgb]

Originally Posted by Tridor

I find it fascinating that one or more Rolex fan boys refuse to believe that there is an issue with the 32xx movement. The fact is that there IS a problem, as confirmed by many anecdotal examples over the years, and testing by knowledgeable forum members. To me, this "new" movement is a bust and I prefer to stick with the 31xx series as a time-tested, robust, and reliable product. To each their own, but calling this thread stupid is, in and if itself, ridiculous. I have found it to be informative and validating.

Totally agree
I have also experienced the problem with a 2019 DJ41, went back to Rolex in August 2020 and 3 months later the problems back again.
I have since sold the watch and will stick to 31 series movements at least until Rolex acknowledge the problem and actually manage to fix it once and for all

[FTX I]

Originally Posted by Tridor

I find it fascinating that one or more Rolex fan boys refuse to believe that there is an issue with the 32xx movement. The fact is that there IS a problem, as confirmed by many anecdotal examples over the years, and testing by knowledgeable forum members. To me, this "new" movement is a bust and I prefer to stick with the 31xx series as a time-tested, robust, and reliable product. To each their own, but calling this thread stupid is, in and if itself, ridiculous. I have found it to be informative and validating.

I couldn't agree more and nice to see you posting again.

[saxo3]

Nice to read the last posts (since #747)
Thanks guys!

[francis]

I have a small update for what it’s worth.

My dj41 (2019) was running 30 seconds slow..
Rolex “fixed” it and sent it back.. After the fix it was almost spot on. Maybe a second or two fast in a bunch of days!

I put it away in the watch box about 3 days ago and didn’t touch it. After the third day I happened to glance at it and noticed it was still running. I was surprised and but also convinced it was at the end of its rope as far as power reserve. I checked the time and it was still 1 second fast! I checked it a couple hours later and it had died a half hour after I checked it.. So at the end of its reserve it was spot on. Again, for what it’s worth..


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[Fuzzyme]

Originally Posted by francis

I have a small update for what it’s worth.

My dj41 (2019) was running 30 seconds slow..
Rolex “fixed” it and sent it back.. After the fix it was almost spot on. Maybe a second or two fast in a bunch of days!

I put it away in the watch box about 3 days ago and didn’t touch it. After the third day I happened to glance at it and noticed it was still running. I was surprised and but also convinced it was at the end of its rope as far as power reserve. I checked the time and it was still 1 second fast! I checked it a couple hours later and it had died a half hour after I checked it.. So at the end of its reserve it was spot on. Again, for what it’s worth..


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A happy customer

[Michael N Q8]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Hi, what I found surprising in your BLRO data set (before repair) were the very high beat errors of 7.2 to 9.2 ms.

I never ever measured a beat error > 0.8 ms for any of my movements (15xx, 31xx, 32xx).

Btw, the lift angle for the 32xx series is 53 and not 52 degrees; using 52 results in amplitude values that are about 6 degrees too low compared with 53, not a big deal.

Thanks, I will adjust the lift angle to 53. Regarding the beat error, all my other watches gave the expected results, so I suspect this issue was related to the poor condition of this movement prior to the service?

So far the watch is maintaining +-2 sec per day. My next test is to not wind or wear it and see what happens as the power reserve runs down.

[Michael N Q8]

Originally Posted by francis

I have a small update for what it’s worth.

My dj41 (2019) was running 30 seconds slow..
Rolex “fixed” it and sent it back.. After the fix it was almost spot on. Maybe a second or two fast in a bunch of days!

I put it away in the watch box about 3 days ago and didn’t touch it. After the third day I happened to glance at it and noticed it was still running. I was surprised and but also convinced it was at the end of its rope as far as power reserve. I checked the time and it was still 1 second fast! I checked it a couple hours later and it had died a half hour after I checked it.. So at the end of its reserve it was spot on. Again, for what it’s worth..

This is good news, and how it is supposed to perform!

[Toivonen]

Hi Guys, we have a great topic on our forum ("Orologi&Passioni", Italy), I think could be informative and helpful as this is for us ;) https://orologi.forumfree.it/?t=77898872

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Toivonen

Hi Guys, we have a great topic on our forum ("Orologi&Passioni", Italy), I think could be informative and helpful as this is for us ;) https://orologi.forumfree.it/?t=77898872

Hello Vittorio,

Thanks for bringing this Italian Forum to our attention.

From your forum discussions, you may be able and wish to share with us a condensed summary of data and plots about the 32xx movements.

We are interested in timegrapher (rates, amplitudes, beat errors), timekeeping, and power reserve measurement results, combined with information such as watch reference number, purchase date (new, second hand), and service history.

This thread tries to collect DATA, which is an unexpected adventure in itself.

Cheers

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Michael N Q8

My next test is to not wind or wear it and see what happens as the power reserve runs down.

That sounds interesting because it will result in a kind of reference curve for a freshly serviced 3285 caliber of your 126710 BLRO.

I can integrate your data in my plot shown below (see post #552)

[Toivonen]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Hello Vittorio,

Thanks for bringing this Italian Forum to our attention.

From your forum discussions, you may be able and wish to share with us a condensed summary of data and plots about the 32xx movements.

We are interested in timegrapher (rates, amplitudes, beat errors), timekeeping, and power reserve measurement results, combined with information such as watch reference number, purchase date (new, second hand), and service history.

This thread tries to collect DATA, which is an unexpected adventure in itself.

Cheers

Hi, a pleasure to exchange data
In our topic there are some users that quite constantly report the numbers of their watches (they’ve bought some chrono comparator just for this reason), some of them have their watches ‘partially serviced’ from Rolex (don’t think is a full service of the caliber, maybe some accurate regulation)

I’ll link this topic to a friend of mine that can directly report here a data summary, hope I’ll have the pleasure to read of you in our ‘house’
Cheers :)
V

[saxo3]

Ciao Vittorio, I had a quick look into the 61 pages of the thread you linked to. All contributions (mostly text) are in Italian ... I have no chance to understand a single post or discussion. I could not find any summary plot or graph comparing 32xx caliber performances.
Saluti

[HiBoost]

Originally Posted by Toivonen

Hi, a pleasure to exchange data

Thanks for bringing it to our attention, and we welcome participation from your users here as well.

Originally Posted by saxo3

All contributions (mostly text) are in Italian ... I have no chance to understand any discussion.

Chrome's built-in translate actually does a great job. I'm able to read along just like it was written in English for the most part. It's a bit surreal, the guy posts data and mentions the problems (crediting TRF as the source) and he's met with people saying "very interesting" and "interested to learn more". I haven't read all 61 pages but so far I haven't seen anybody claim a watch wasn't supposed to tell time

[MRBolton]

I bought my 126710BLRO in July 2019, but I think it may be an Mk I bezel.

I’m finally recording when I set the time, but I’m pretty sure I’ve set the watch in the last week to atomic time within the last 7 days or less, and it’s running about -1:20 slow after wearing and sometimes resting the watch overnight on the crown side. The watch used to run -1 second a day. I also feel like the power reserve is less and less.
I figured I was just having my usual bad luck, but after reading comments around the forums, I don’t feel alone.

I’ve just recorded the time and date that I set the watch. Fingers crossed I’m wrong.

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by MRBolton

I bought my 126710BLRO in July 2019, but I think it may be an Mk I bezel.

I’m finally recording when I set the time, but I’m pretty sure I’ve set the watch in the last week to atomic time within the last 7 days or less, and it’s running about -1:20 slow after wearing and sometimes resting the watch overnight on the crown side. The watch used to run -1 second a day. I also feel like the power reserve is less and less.
I figured I was just having my usual bad luck, but after reading comments around the forums, I don’t feel alone.

I’ve just recorded the time and date that I set the watch. Fingers crossed I’m wrong.

Definitely not alone, it's the beauty of a thread like this.

I do hope it's not the issue but if you're losing ~10 seconds a day I think your watch is in the problem bucket unfortunately.

Keep an eye on the forums for when a perm solution is announced.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by MRBolton

I bought my 126710BLRO in July 2019, but I think it may be an Mk I bezel.

I’m finally recording when I set the time, but I’m pretty sure I’ve set the watch in the last week to atomic time within the last 7 days or less, and it’s running about -1:20 slow after wearing and sometimes resting the watch overnight on the crown side. The watch used to run -1 second a day. I also feel like the power reserve is less and less.
I figured I was just having my usual bad luck, but after reading comments around the forums, I don’t feel alone.

I’ve just recorded the time and date that I set the watch. Fingers crossed I’m wrong.

Thanks for sharing your observations; it's not your "usual bad luck" but a technical issue with your watch movement, not your fault. If you can confirm it's running with about -11 sec/day then you have the option to get it repaired within the guarantee period.

Concerning the insert, it's not very simple to determine the Mk 1,2,3 difference because the color appearance strongly depends on light conditions and viewing angles. There are several threads about it in this Forum.

Good luck with your measurements. Please come back here with your valuable information and results!

[Moretti]

Hi.

I'm more of a reader but this topic is quite interesting and the issue described might affect my watches. I own two models with 32XX movement (DJ41, GMT BLNR).

1. DJ41 - bought it in September 2019. For more than a year it was my EDC, I was wearing it every day until my BLNR finally arrived. Regardless of the position I left it for the night it was and still is doing between -0,5 to -1 second per day.
2. BLNR - bought it in December 2020. Constantly doing approx -1 second per day.

As mentioned above, for over a year, 126300 has been my daily beater. Now, as I own two watches, I wear them in rotation i.e. I wear my DJ for a month while Batman is left in a different place, then I swap them for another month or so. It doesn't seem to influence the timekeeping, on the other hand it's been only 3 months now since I got my Batman. I didn't check the amplitude, not planning on doing so until something bad happens and I notice some movement problems. I also didn't vote in the poll as both of my watches are quite new and the problems might emerge in the upcoming months.

[DJ2020]

Originally Posted by Tridor

I find it fascinating that one or more Rolex fan boys refuse to believe that there is an issue with the 32xx movement. The fact is that there IS a problem, as confirmed by many anecdotal examples over the years, and testing by knowledgeable forum members. To me, this "new" movement is a bust and I prefer to stick with the 31xx series as a time-tested, robust, and reliable product. To each their own, but calling this thread stupid is, in and if itself, ridiculous. I have found it to be informative and validating.

Absolutely agree!
Maybe that's why there is such a shortage. There in the back working on the new 3335.

[Toivonen]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

Thanks for bringing it to our attention, and we welcome participation from your users here as well.



Chrome's built-in translate actually does a great job. I'm able to read along just like it was written in English for the most part. It's a bit surreal, the guy posts data and mentions the problems (crediting TRF as the source) and he's met with people saying "very interesting" and "interested to learn more". I haven't read all 61 pages but so far I haven't seen anybody claim a watch wasn't supposed to tell time

Hi! Thank you very much, I tell you here too :)
I think it’s a great idea to ‘work’ together, just deciding how and what data to collect and how to ‘put them down’ graphically :)
The 3 users I’ve tagged on our forum are the ‘main’ users of the topic, so you’ll interface with them principally (I’m the moderator but... no 3235 :) )

Hope saxo3 will join us too :)

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Toivonen

Hope saxo3 will join us too :)

As I messaged you before... Many thanks for your offer to join your Italian Forum, much appreciated.
I thought about it and decided not to post the same data and graphs at 2 different places.
Cheers

[saxo3]

Measurement Procedure

For everybody joining new in the fun of caliber investigations using a timegrapher, I recommend the following steps:

(1) Measure your watch in 5 positions (except 12U) and note rates, amplitudes, and beat errors.
(2) Start with full watch winding, place the watch on your timegrapher, in DU position.
(3) Wait (10-15 minutes) for stabilisation.
(4) Start timegrapher measurement, which usually takes about 1 minute.
(5) Change watch position, wait (2-3 minutes), measure.
(6) This you do sequentially for all 5 positions.
(7) Save all data in an Excel file.
(8) Calculate average values and error bars (standard deviation).
(9) Save file.
(10) For long term measurements, leave your watch (at rest) in DU position on the timegrapher, repeat the sequence in certain time intervals.

Note: The more data the better; with 0, 24 h, 48 h … you will miss to detect some caliber characteristics, e.g. a fast decrease in amplitudes after full winding.

Following this simple procedure will allow us to obtain comparable data sets, which could be visualized in graphs, as done previously in this thread.

[Fuzzyme]

Timegrapher....................................... .............LOL

[Andad]

Originally Posted by Fuzzyme

Timegrapher....................................... .............LOL

You are becoming annoying so I will say to you now.

[Tridor]

What brand of timegrapher is recommended?

[Gab27]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Measurement Procedure

For everybody joining new in the fun of caliber investigations using a timegrapher, I recommend the following steps:

(1) Measure your watch in 5 positions (except 12U) and note rates, amplitudes, and beat errors.
(2) Start with full watch winding, place the watch on your timegrapher, in DU position.
(3) Wait (10-15 minutes) for stabilisation.
(4) Start timegrapher measurement, which usually takes about 1 minute.
(5) Change watch position, wait (2-3 minutes), measure.
(6) This you do sequentially for all 5 positions.
(7) Save all data in an Excel file.
(8) Calculate average values and error bars (standard deviation).
(9) Save file.
(10) For long term measurements, leave your watch (at rest) in DU position on the timegrapher, repeat the sequence in certain time intervals.

Note: The more data the better; with 0, 24 h, 48 h … you will miss to detect some caliber characteristics, e.g. a fast decrease in amplitudes after full winding.

Following this simple procedure will allow us to obtain comparable data sets, which could be visualized in graphs, as done previously in this thread.

Generally speaking, as a snapshot to assess movement health, at what single point in time is measuring amplitude going to be most important? Fully wound? 24 hours out? Or is trend data so important that a single point-in-time measurement (or a series of measurements at the same point-in-time) could potentially miss 'the big picture'?

Additionally, is there value in measuring amplitude without manually winding at all and simply measuring at the point to which continuous wrist wear will wind the watch to? For example, my 3130 Sub consistently loses about 1.9 seconds a day with continuous wrist wear, whereas when fully wound the watch loses less time. So whatever level my wrist wear winds the watch to, I assume it is a good bit less than a fully wound mainspring (and that amplitude would be lower?) Is that reading of amplitude at a 'real world' level of use of benefit?

I just ordered a timegrapher yesterday so I've been reading up about using it, but I think one area I am lacking in is a clear picture of how to interpret the data.

If this is straying too far off topic, I sincerely apologize but your post is great and I am in the process of trying to learn more.

[francis]

Originally Posted by Andad

You are becoming annoying so I will say to you now.

Ditto......


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[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Gab27

Generally speaking, as a snapshot to assess movement health, at what single point in time is measuring amplitude going to be most important? Fully wound? 24 hours out? Or is trend data so important that a single point-in-time measurement (or a series of measurements at the same point-in-time) could potentially miss 'the big picture'?

I always start with full movement winding. You already have a very first idea about the health of your caliber. There are several graphs in this thread, which illustrate the spread of results for different watches with the same 3235 or 3285 movements after full winding.

A characteristic footprint for a good movement is a rather slow decrease of amplitudes over time, nice examples for a 3130 (Andad) and 3187 (saxo3) are in post #414.

Such "amplitude vs. time" measurements are often done in one position only, dial up (DU), which is the most 'comfortable' caliber position (also dial down, DD) with lowest friction.

A coarse picture you obtain measuring only at t=0 and t=24 h. After 24 h the amplitudes must be above 200 degrees, which is the Rolex specification. I would even say above 230 degrees.

Originally Posted by Gab27

Additionally, is there value in measuring amplitude without manually winding at all and simply measuring at the point to which continuous wrist wear will wind the watch to?

Yes, for sure. The most natural way is wearing your watch and wind it with your wrist. You first fully wind it and set the time, then do a reference measurement and simply wear it afterwards. From time to time you measure 5-position-averaged rates and amplitudes. I have done that often in the past, also for watches with other 31xx and 15xx calibers.

Originally Posted by Gab27

For example, my 3130 Sub consistently loses about 1.9 seconds a day with continuous wrist wear, whereas when fully wound the watch loses less time.

The 3130 is a very good movement and the -1.9 sec/day would not worry me too much. Important is that the time loss is consistent, i.e. you always loose more or less -2 sec/day. This can be regulated by a watchmaker. I prefer that my watches run in the positive range.

Originally Posted by Gab27

So whatever level my wrist wear winds the watch to, I assume it is a good bit less than a fully wound mainspring (and that amplitude would be lower?)

Yes, probably.

Originally Posted by Gab27

Is that reading of amplitude at a 'real world' level of use of benefit?

Yes, certainly. It also includes the time where your watch remains at rest, e.g. overnight, that reflects the reality for most.

Originally Posted by Gab27

I just ordered a timegrapher yesterday so I've been reading up about using it, but I think one area I am lacking in is a clear picture of how to interpret the data.

Understandable.

Originally Posted by Gab27

If this is straying too far off topic, I sincerely apologize but your post is great and I am in the process of trying to learn more.

No, you are very welcome.

To answer all your valid questions with real data, you can have a look at the graph below, which displays several things for you.

This SD43 keeps a high amplitude (in DU position) over a long time, after 60 hours it’s still above 200 degrees. During the same test, I also measured the accuracy (or timekeeping) with a timegrapher-independent app (WatchTracker). The blue curve (no fit, only a guide to the eye) shows that the 3235 caliber is running consistently with about +5 sec/day, which gets smaller towards the end of the power reserve. This +5 sec/day accuracy one can regulate to become less. At present I don't care and prefer to observe how it changes over time.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Tridor

What brand of timegrapher is recommended?

None (here) from my side, see post #212.
Well, I have a preference for excellent instrumentation.

[saxo3]

Message to Aeroglyph, Glauco, RomiRolex et al. from the Italian Forum, quoted by Vittorio in post #758.

You are very welcome to share your experiences and the recently (RomiRolex today) announced new data here.

I volunteer to integrate your data into my small data collection and produce (hopefully) some meaningful and comparable graphs for the community.

Your choice!

[peterskinner]

Worth noting that this thread involves a relatively narrow group, who tend to assume they are representative. But are they? How many 32xx movements have been produced? And how many have been faulty?
I don’t think we have a clue. Self-selecting anecdote on a forum can’t be relied upon, regardless of how sincere.....