Patek scaling down AD network?

[jon_jon]

Originally Posted by Fenrira

I’m out of the loop regarding Govberg – someone care to share that story?

This is an article from a while ago:

https://usa.watchpro.com/exclusive-r...s-in-2020/?amp

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?p=10160209

I remember reading that Richemont was competing in the pre-owned market with Govberg/Watchbox and it was a strategic move/decision.

[classicalthunder]

Originally Posted by jon_jon

This is an article from a while ago:

https://usa.watchpro.com/exclusive-r...s-in-2020/?amp

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?p=10160209

I remember reading that Richemont was competing in the pre-owned market with Govberg/Watchbox and it was a strategic move/decision.

Could very well be, I think Richemont owns Watchfinder and Co. out of the UK

But fact is, you can still buy a Cartier, ALS, JLC, and IWC in a store without jumping through a ton of hoops or dropping piles of cash on ancillary purchases.

So I don't think they have the same image issue that Govberg does...which really leave a bad taste

[jon_jon]

Originally Posted by classicalthunder

Could very well be, I think Richemont owns Watchfinder and Co. out of the UK

But fact is, you can still buy a Cartier, ALS, JLC, and IWC in a store without jumping through a ton of hoops or dropping piles of cash on ancillary purchases.

So I don't think they have the same image issue that Govberg does...which really leave a bad taste

There seems to be mixed feelings for Govberg here on this forum. There is no doubt Danny Govberg is a good businessman and he knows what he is doing. Expanding to the pre-owned watch business is a natural progression in expanding his large existing new watch business. He has taken a number of steps over 5+ years to do that, knowing that is a large market.

As for closing their Ardmore location for Patek, I am sure it wasn't doing a lot of Patek business and consolidating Patek sales to one location made more sense rather than transporting inventory back and forth.

[classicalthunder]

Originally Posted by jon_jon

There seems to be mixed feelings for Govberg here on this forum. There is no doubt Danny Govberg is a good businessman and he knows what he is doing. Expanding to the pre-owned watch business is a natural progression in expanding his large existing new watch business. He has taken a number of steps over 5+ years to do that, knowing that is a large market.

As for closing their Ardmore location for Patek, I am sure it wasn't doing a lot of Patek business and consolidating Patek sales to one location made more sense rather than transporting inventory back and forth.

I agree that its probably a good business decision for Govberg

I think where the mixed feelings come from is that this board is full of enthusiasts and consumers and from those perspectives, this business direction and the experience can be frustration (speaking personally as someone who is starting over from square 1 after re-location).

[malba2366]

Originally Posted by classicalthunder

I agree that its probably a good business decision for Govberg

I think where the mixed feelings come from is that this board is full of enthusiasts and consumers and from those perspectives, this business direction and the experience can be frustration (speaking personally as someone who is starting over from square 1 after re-location).

I can see Govberg losing both Rolex and PP if they are not careful...ie. if they try to sell BNIB watches or watches that are a few months old at grey prices vs selling truly preowned watches.

[smallcollector]

ya if Cd Peacock in fact lost theirs - Patek may mean business, going after all the shady players - which is the correct move

[jon_jon]

Originally Posted by malba2366

I can see Govberg losing both Rolex and PP if they are not careful...ie. if they try to sell BNIB watches or watches that are a few months old at grey prices vs selling truly preowned watches.

You probably don't know Govberg that well. They have been around for a very long time, long before most people on this forum were born. They are where they are now not by accident. Danny Govberg is a good businessman and he has some smart people working for him. The big pre-owned watch dealers are very well networked around the world and have brokers and middlemen working for and with them.

The small mom and pop Patek and Rolex dealers are usually the ones caught selling through the backdoor and lose their AD license.

[smallcollector]

Jon Jon - that is a very Interesting point.

Cant PP still trace the serial numbers if new buyers register the warranty?

[classicalthunder]

For the record - I am not saying that Govberg/Watchbox does anything illegal or fraudulent. I dont think they're taking new stock and selling it at secondary market prices.

My gripe is only from a consumer experience perspective - its just shitty be told you cant buy something at the sticker price, not be given a clear path or timeline to acquire at sticker price, but then be offered a used one at 2x the MSRP in the same convo.

Govberg/Watchbox will be do just fine from a business perspective, and I will likely never be offered the watch I want from them.

That being said, if I am offered the watch from them, I will recant my rant and will be wind up using them for the other half a dozen watches that I want.

[jon_jon]

Originally Posted by smallcollector

Jon Jon - that is a very Interesting point.

Cant PP still trace the serial numbers if new buyers register the warranty?

The Patek registration system can be tracked of course, that is if people register all their watches.

TRF forum members are a smaller group of watch enthusiasts that keep all their watch boxes, certificates of course, sales receipts and even Patek memorabilia. The rest of the watch world is not like the typical TRF forum member. I would bet a lot of people do not register their watches for a number of reasons. Many do not keep boxes and they often misplace the certificates.

I have visited a number of smaller ADs who also have a smaller selection of pre-owned watches for sale. The story is always 'No we don't have that in stock brand new, but we have it pre-owned for a few thousand $/£/€ more".

The state of the watch industry is what it is today. Each and every AD will do what it needs to do to stay in business and pay the bills and make a living. I don't know exactly how many ADs sell through the backdoor for a profit. I am sure Patek and Rolex knows what is going on and gives many ADs leniency a lot of the times. But if it is excessive, my assumption is they will get the hatchet.

My understanding is that an AD like Govberg has a better chance of thriving when their business is not solely on new watches, but also pre-owned watches. In a slightly different industry, car dealerships make a decent profit on pre-owned vehicles and on vehicle trades-ins. They also do quite well on vehicle servicing. ADs like Govberg sell new, pre-owned and also have a number of watchmakers who service watches. It seems like a diversified watch business IMHO.

[JR16]

Originally Posted by classicalthunder

curious as to why one location would lose its AD status but another one would keep it, especially within the same geographic area (those stores are like 20 min apart).

Govberg has take quite the hit on AD status in the past couple of years with their unapologetic approach to the grey market. I think they lost JLC, Cartier, and a few other major name brands

Govberg recently relocated to a much nicer, larger storefront in center city Philadelphia. I wonder if they are going to use the Philly location for watches only and the Ardmore location for jewelry only...

I heard from a reliable source they Govberg is intentionally consolidating its new watch business to focus on Watchbox, where it sees much more growth potential and by now I assume is a much larger profit-generator than being an AD. With that said, I think Govberg will always keep Patek and Rolex. And it makes sense to consolidate to one store as the cost of building out two spaces for each of those brands prob doesn’t make sense given how close they are geographically.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[malba2366]

Originally Posted by jon_jon

You probably don't know Govberg that well. They have been around for a very long time, long before most people on this forum were born. They are where they are now not by accident. Danny Govberg is a good businessman and he has some smart people working for him. The big pre-owned watch dealers are very well networked around the world and have brokers and middlemen working for and with them.

The small mom and pop Patek and Rolex dealers are usually the ones caught selling through the backdoor and lose their AD license.

Im sure they are legit, but what I am saying is that if they start selling BNIB grey market watches vs legit pre-owned they are going to have problems with Rolex and PP. All Rolex/PP dealers sell pre-owned watches, but they don't sell BNIB watches on the secondary market.

[train-time]

Originally Posted by classicalthunder

Govberg is owned or owns Watch Box, and they push hard their pre-owned sales.

I think a number of ADs saw this as a significant conflict of interest and pulled out - JLC, Cartier, IWC, etc.

From popping in it looks like they effectively only carry PP and Rolex (with nothing available for sale), Grand Seiko, Breitling, Tudor, and H. Moser

Its local, so its one of the ADs I stopped in to 'register' my interest for a Submariner and they've told me they don't know when one will come in for me to purchase, but they do have a $16K BNIB 41mm Sub that they can sell me today in the same breath.

I get the state of the market right now, but its still not a good look...

They are not the only Rolex AD that follows this practice. It has become more and more common in the last couple years.

[nhoangtam]

Originally Posted by Will_L

And another massacre in PP dealer country. 377 in 2021, 369 now. When I started looking in 2020 there where 388.
Gone are:

ID 42
Dealer ID 154
Dealer name Boglietti Gioielli*
Dealer address Via Italia 11
Dealer postcode 13051
Dealer city Biella
Dealer country Italy
Dealer first seen 2020-10-31
Dealer last seen 2022-01-31


ID 52
Dealer ID 515
Dealer name C.D. Peacock*
Dealer address 172 Oakbrook Center
Dealer postcode IL 60523
Dealer city Oakbrook
Dealer country United States
Dealer first seen 2020-10-31
Dealer last seen 2022-01-31


ID 166
Dealer ID 564
Dealer name James Free Jewelers
Dealer address 9555 Main Street
Dealer postcode OH 45242
Dealer city Montgomery
Dealer country United States
Dealer first seen 2020-10-31
Dealer last seen 2022-01-31


ID 331
Dealer ID 508
Dealer name Tiffany & Co. Waikiki
Dealer address Royal Hawaiian Center, 2201 Kalakaua Avenue, Suite A101
Dealer postcode HI 96815
Dealer city Honolulu
Dealer country United States
Dealer first seen 2020-10-31
Dealer last seen 2022-01-31


ID 345
Dealer ID 534
Dealer name Tourneau
Dealer address The Forum Shops - Caesar's Palace3500 Las Vegas Blvd., Suite F-07
Dealer postcode NV 89109
Dealer city Las Vegas
Dealer country United States
Dealer first seen 2020-10-31
Dealer last seen 2022-01-31


ID 351
Dealer ID 62
Dealer name Ulrich und Knorren
Dealer address Büchel 32
Dealer postcode 52062
Dealer city Aachen
Dealer country Germany
Dealer first seen 2020-10-31
Dealer last seen 2022-01-31


ID 376
Dealer ID 1141
Dealer name Wempe*
Dealer address Serrano, 58
Dealer postcode 28001
Dealer city Madrid
Dealer country Spain
Dealer first seen 2020-10-31
Dealer last seen 2022-01-31


ID 136
Dealer ID 349
Dealer name Gübelin AG*
Dealer address Freie Strasse 27
Dealer postcode 4001
Dealer city Basel
Dealer country Switzerland
Dealer first seen 2020-10-31
Dealer last seen 2021-12-31

Oh no, my hometown Patek AD (James Free) is now gone too. That’s not good. I was just in there 2 weeks ago and they were an AD, but no more now.

[smallcollector]

Was Tourneau Vegas pulling shenanigans too? How did they lose it?

[AHG]

I'm surprised there isn't a Patek salon in the US, especially in NYC or even in Los Angeles.

[classicalthunder]

a slightly different line on inquiry on this thread:

- does being an AD cost the store money outright? Do they have a guaranteed minimum of sales they need to hit?
- are these 'loss of AD status' initiated by PP or by the AD themselves?

I grew up in CT and there was a decent chain up (maybe 3-4 stores between CT and MA) and they are no longer authorized dealers...curious as to why they would voluntarily give them up if most places stock flies out the window. I would imagine that means they would meet their quota too

[jon_jon]

Originally Posted by classicalthunder

a slightly different line on inquiry on this thread:

- does being an AD cost the store money outright? Do they have a guaranteed minimum of sales they need to hit?
- are these 'loss of AD status' initiated by PP or by the AD themselves?

I grew up in CT and there was a decent chain up (maybe 3-4 stores between CT and MA) and they are no longer authorized dealers...curious as to why they would voluntarily give them up if most places stock flies out the window. I would imagine that means they would meet their quota too

There are some costs involves for the AD I thatt Patek and Rolex usually request/require the AD to set up a special area for their watches within their store. It involves some watch display cases, etc.

ADs receive watches that are popular as well as those that are not popular. Depending on the location and client base, some watches may sit unsold for a long time. The AD has to pay for the watches upfront and so unsold pieces can be an issue for many ADs. That is why I assume many watches get some through the backdoor (both popular and unpopular watches) to improve cashflow for the AD.

Some ADs will voluntarily give up AD status if they can't sell the allocated watches. But most of the AD cuts are made by th watch company and not the AD.

[cardstock]

Originally Posted by AHG

I'm surprised there isn't a Patek salon in the US, especially in NYC or even in Los Angeles.

Gearys on Rodeo Drive is/was the first boutique in the US for Patek. At least that is what they told me a few years back. They had some really nice pieces. Hooked me up with a difficult to find one at the time.

[cardstock]

When I travel and have extra free time, I often will visit high end watch stores around the globe.

Many of the stores in the US have been a let down for a selection of Patek watches. They may be ADs but their selections were not very good. Having only a handful men's watches and often ladies watches is not what I would consider a strong AD. There were a bunch of them in many cities.

I think it is good that Patek consolidates as long as it means more in stock selections to purchase or to order after you make the trek there.

With that said, they closed with little warning a good AD here. They had many Pateks and they sold quite a few. Now there are no ADs in Pittsburgh. I do question that decision as I always though very highly of the AD and their apparent sales volume and good sales ethics.

I no longer have a decade long relationship with an AD and that leaves me out on the street for any future deals on any new watches. So much for it being a partnership to buy a Patek.

[AHG]

Originally Posted by cardstock

Gearys on Rodeo Drive is/was the first boutique in the US for Patek. At least that is what they told me a few years back. They had some really nice pieces. Hooked me up with a difficult to find one at the time.

The Geary's boutique is like the others now, barely any desirable pieces. But I feel like Patek could use a full blown Salon in the US. Obviously in Beverly Hills this would likely cannibalize Geary's on Rodeo.

[PPcollector]

Originally Posted by AHG

The Geary's boutique is like the others now, barely any desirable pieces. But I feel like Patek could use a full blown Salon in the US. Obviously in Beverly Hills this would likely cannibalize Geary's on Rodeo.

Patek should emulate the maison store model that they have in China. Have a Maison in NYC as the first one since it is after all the first city visited when Antoine Patek came to the US.

[jon_jon]

Originally Posted by PPcollector

Patek should emulate the maison store model that they have in China. Have a Maison in NYC as the first one since it is after all the first city visited when Antoine Patek came to the US.

Tiffany NYC is almost like the Maison they have in China, although they call it something else. It is located on a separate floor from the jewelry division and it has a different feel (more exclusive and privacy) from a regular Patek AD.

[PPcollector]

Originally Posted by jon_jon

Tiffany NYC is almost like the Maison they have in China, although they call it something else. It is located on a separate floor from the jewelry division and it has a different feel (more exclusive and privacy) from a regular Patek AD.

Not anymore…5th Ave is under renovation and there is no longer a dedicated floor for Patek. Not sure if the new space will have that anymore as well…

[classicalthunder]

Originally Posted by PPcollector

Not anymore…5th Ave is under renovation and there is no longer a dedicated floor for Patek. Not sure if the new space will have that anymore as well…

yea, I swung by in the fall and was disappointed that it was effectively just a corner with 2-3 display cases

[jon_jon]

Originally Posted by PPcollector

Not anymore…5th Ave is under renovation and there is no longer a dedicated floor for Patek. Not sure if the new space will have that anymore as well…

With Tiffany now under the LVMH umbrella, I imagine the relationship between Patek and Tiffany will not be the same. I can see LVMH spending more resources on higher margins Tiffany products (i.e. jewelry) than Patek watches. Dedicating an entire floor to Patek at the NYC location may be a thing of the past. Maybe the new Patek section will be as small as the Tiffany SF location.

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by classicalthunder

Could very well be, I think Richemont owns Watchfinder and Co. out of the UK

But fact is, you can still buy a Cartier, ALS, JLC, and IWC in a store without jumping through a ton of hoops or dropping piles of cash on ancillary purchases.

So I don't think they have the same image issue that Govberg does...which really leave a bad taste

Two other factors to support that:

1. Isn't watchfinder more of a marketplace?
2. Richemont is already into retail (Net-a-Porter group; Yoox) so it's not a huge stretch.

Originally Posted by jon_jon

There seems to be mixed feelings for Govberg here on this forum. There is no doubt Danny Govberg is a good businessman and he knows what he is doing. Expanding to the pre-owned watch business is a natural progression in expanding his large existing new watch business. He has taken a number of steps over 5+ years to do that, knowing that is a large market.

As for closing their Ardmore location for Patek, I am sure it wasn't doing a lot of Patek business and consolidating Patek sales to one location made more sense rather than transporting inventory back and forth.

Also makes sense to consolidate to the store where more PP-hopefuls can be directed to other products, available here and now.

Originally Posted by malba2366

I can see Govberg losing both Rolex and PP if they are not careful...ie. if they try to sell BNIB watches or watches that are a few months old at grey prices vs selling truly preowned watches.

Depends. Particularly if those BNIB "used" watches have other ADs' warranty cards, shouldn't be an issue. If it's people trading back watches purchased there, then that looks shady...

[Carlazzo]

In this moment they are 369.
Last week 376....

[uniqueMR]

Originally Posted by Carlazzo

In this moment they are 369.
Last week 376....

In states down to 61 :)
Patek and Rolex closed many ADs in 2021.

[Mini2]

Originally Posted by uniqueMR

In states down to 61 :)
Patek and Rolex closed many ADs in 2021.

When you consider the population of America 61 stores seems very few when compared to the uk which has 38 and 1/5 of population