Are AP Price Cuts on the Horizon?

[SMD]

If I had to provide (constructive) criticism of AP it would be:

1) they went a little too aggressive on some of the price increases. There were a couple offshores I would have bought but, despite being relatively price insensitive, the "value" was just not there.

2) they need to do a better job of mining their CRM. IMO, the brand does almost nothing to keep people like me interested in the brand.

For reference, I bought my first AP in 2013 (15400) and have spent >500k over that time (though nothing in 2023). I have not flipped or sold my APs. Anyway, I never get emails or any notifications of new releases. I do not get invited to events. I receive no communication from AP at all over the holidays, no card, nada. I have never been informed of, invited to, or provided any info on their AP house they opened in my city. All of which is fine (I could reach out about AP house for instance), but it seems AP thinks I should chase them so I can spend my money on their brand. And IMO I think they have this backward, especially compared to other brands. For example, I just bought my first Ferrari a few months ago and the contrast could not be more different. The brand made it seem like they actually wanted me to be a long term customer. And when the sales guy needed help locking down his final allocation before year end, he knew I would be there to put down the deposit.

For me, doesn't really matter. I am not going to make some stormy exit from the brand (if I want something I will buy it), nor am I going to "check in" with a SA just for them to take notice. But I would like to think that they realize that the COVID market was an anomaly, and that at some point it might be good to have a stable base of demand you can count on long term. It's so much easier (and cheaper) to maintain an existing customer relationship than it is to acquire a new one (in normal times anyway). You never know, my SA may need to move some pieces to meet a quota at some point in the future, and wouldn't it be nice to have a list of people you can count on?

Summary -- I have lots of brands (watches and otherwise) competing for my discretionary spending, and it just seems AP is just not that interested. And perhaps they aren't and I should take a hint.

[gretch6364]

Originally Posted by Johndong888

Been waiting for any RO QP for 3 years now. They weren’t even hot when I first asked. Then it became hot when everything went up so naturally harder. So I got a piece for the wifey to stay with the brand. Added a few more beginning simple asks. Nothing. And QP has been pretty much cheaper on the secondary now for some time. So annoyed.


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Other than your wife's watch (a RO?), how many AP watches have you purchased from the boutique?

[Mbbgysam]

Originally Posted by SMD

If I had to provide (constructive) criticism of AP it would be:

1) they went a little too aggressive on some of the price increases. There were a couple offshores I would have bought but, despite being relatively price insensitive, the "value" was just not there.

2) they need to do a better job of mining their CRM. IMO, the brand does almost nothing to keep people like me interested in the brand.

For reference, I bought my first AP in 2013 (15400) and have spent >500k over that time (though nothing in 2023). I have not flipped or sold my APs. Anyway, I never get emails or any notifications of new releases. I do not get invited to events. I receive no communication from AP at all over the holidays, no card, nada. I have never been informed of, invited to, or provided any info on their AP house they opened in my city. All of which is fine (I could reach out about AP house for instance), but it seems AP thinks I should chase them so I can spend my money on their brand. And IMO I think they have this backward, especially compared to other brands. For example, I just bought my first Ferrari a few months ago and the contrast could not be more different. The brand made it seem like they actually wanted me to be a long term customer. And when the sales guy needed help locking down his final allocation before year end, he knew I would be there to put down the deposit.

For me, doesn't really matter. I am not going to make some stormy exit from the brand (if I want something I will buy it), nor am I going to "check in" with a SA just for them to take notice. But I would like to think that they realize that the COVID market was an anomaly, and that at some point it might be good to have a stable base of demand you can count on long term. It's so much easier (and cheaper) to maintain an existing customer relationship than it is to acquire a new one (in normal times anyway). You never know, my SA may need to move some pieces to meet a quota at some point in the future, and wouldn't it be nice to have a list of people you can count on?

Summary -- I have lots of brands (watches and otherwise) competing for my discretionary spending, and it just seems AP is just not that interested. And perhaps they aren't and I should take a hint.

Fully aligned with your criticisms, especially the rapid price increases which I truly believe they will regret.

I really wish AP would host more events for regular folks like you and me. The big flashy corporate events (e.g. the recent Travis Scott event) are geared toward celebrities and influencers. The other big corporate events tend to be hosted at AP House which is owned by Material Good (I will never fully understand this strategy) and have few if any spots for APNY clients. I've been invited to a couple smaller events over the years, but they're so few and far between compared to even Vacheron across the street.

FWIW I was told that AP learned several lessons during the RO 50th anniversary allocation process, and, as a result, 2023/2024 consistency would weigh heavily on the 2025 150th anniversary allocations. Just something to consider if you foresee those pieces being on your radar.

[Gandor]

Originally Posted by Mbbgysam

Fully aligned with your criticisms, especially the rapid price increases which I truly believe they will regret.

I really wish AP would host more events for regular folks like you and me. The big flashy corporate events (e.g. the recent Travis Scott event) are geared toward celebrities and influencers. The other big corporate events tend to be hosted at AP House which is owned by Material Good (I will never fully understand this strategy) and have few if any spots for APNY clients. I've been invited to a couple smaller events over the years, but they're so few and far between compared to even Vacheron across the street.

FWIW I was told that AP learned several lessons during the RO 50th anniversary allocation process, and, as a result, 2023/2024 consistency would weigh heavily on the 2025 150th anniversary allocations. Just something to consider if you foresee those pieces being on your radar.

It really disappointed me how many people were there with zero interest or ownership in AP. Every time I think about everything related to the Travis AP fiasco I get sad.

[agsstructures]

Originally Posted by SMD

If I had to provide (constructive) criticism of AP it would be:

1) they went a little too aggressive on some of the price increases. There were a couple offshores I would have bought but, despite being relatively price insensitive, the "value" was just not there.

2) they need to do a better job of mining their CRM. IMO, the brand does almost nothing to keep people like me interested in the brand.

For reference, I bought my first AP in 2013 (15400) and have spent >500k over that time (though nothing in 2023). I have not flipped or sold my APs. Anyway, I never get emails or any notifications of new releases. I do not get invited to events. I receive no communication from AP at all over the holidays, no card, nada. I have never been informed of, invited to, or provided any info on their AP house they opened in my city. All of which is fine (I could reach out about AP house for instance), but it seems AP thinks I should chase them so I can spend my money on their brand. And IMO I think they have this backward, especially compared to other brands. For example, I just bought my first Ferrari a few months ago and the contrast could not be more different. The brand made it seem like they actually wanted me to be a long term customer. And when the sales guy needed help locking down his final allocation before year end, he knew I would be there to put down the deposit.

For me, doesn't really matter. I am not going to make some stormy exit from the brand (if I want something I will buy it), nor am I going to "check in" with a SA just for them to take notice. But I would like to think that they realize that the COVID market was an anomaly, and that at some point it might be good to have a stable base of demand you can count on long term. It's so much easier (and cheaper) to maintain an existing customer relationship than it is to acquire a new one (in normal times anyway). You never know, my SA may need to move some pieces to meet a quota at some point in the future, and wouldn't it be nice to have a list of people you can count on?

Summary -- I have lots of brands (watches and otherwise) competing for my discretionary spending, and it just seems AP is just not that interested. And perhaps they aren't and I should take a hint.

Love this post and agree with your thought process. They are missing out on relationships with true enthusiasts such as yourself!

[messikens]

Originally Posted by SMD

If I had to provide (constructive) criticism of AP it would be:

1) they went a little too aggressive on some of the price increases. There were a couple offshores I would have bought but, despite being relatively price insensitive, the "value" was just not there.

2) they need to do a better job of mining their CRM. IMO, the brand does almost nothing to keep people like me interested in the brand.

For reference, I bought my first AP in 2013 (15400) and have spent >500k over that time (though nothing in 2023). I have not flipped or sold my APs. Anyway, I never get emails or any notifications of new releases. I do not get invited to events. I receive no communication from AP at all over the holidays, no card, nada. I have never been informed of, invited to, or provided any info on their AP house they opened in my city. All of which is fine (I could reach out about AP house for instance), but it seems AP thinks I should chase them so I can spend my money on their brand. And IMO I think they have this backward, especially compared to other brands. For example, I just bought my first Ferrari a few months ago and the contrast could not be more different. The brand made it seem like they actually wanted me to be a long term customer. And when the sales guy needed help locking down his final allocation before year end, he knew I would be there to put down the deposit.

For me, doesn't really matter. I am not going to make some stormy exit from the brand (if I want something I will buy it), nor am I going to "check in" with a SA just for them to take notice. But I would like to think that they realize that the COVID market was an anomaly, and that at some point it might be good to have a stable base of demand you can count on long term. It's so much easier (and cheaper) to maintain an existing customer relationship than it is to acquire a new one (in normal times anyway). You never know, my SA may need to move some pieces to meet a quota at some point in the future, and wouldn't it be nice to have a list of people you can count on?

Summary -- I have lots of brands (watches and otherwise) competing for my discretionary spending, and it just seems AP is just not that interested. And perhaps they aren't and I should take a hint.

I tend to agree with you on this. When I first registered I was asked a whole bunch of question on my interests and affiliations, i.e. do you care about: yachting / soccer / polo / culture events / music / travel / dining / wines / spirits / etc etc... Almost like they tried to match people to potential invites.

Since then : got a coffee table book (nice!) and a baseball hat (ok but wouldnt wear - too conscious of looking like Kendall Roy), but not even so much as any type of event / showcase / meet&greet etc.

Recognize I am a very small fish in a very big pond, but then why ask to begin with and raise some initial hopes / expectations?

[mickyd329]

Originally Posted by SMD

If I had to provide (constructive) criticism of AP it would be:

1) they went a little too aggressive on some of the price increases. There were a couple offshores I would have bought but, despite being relatively price insensitive, the "value" was just not there.

2) they need to do a better job of mining their CRM. IMO, the brand does almost nothing to keep people like me interested in the brand.

For reference, I bought my first AP in 2013 (15400) and have spent >500k over that time (though nothing in 2023). I have not flipped or sold my APs. Anyway, I never get emails or any notifications of new releases. I do not get invited to events. I receive no communication from AP at all over the holidays, no card, nada. I have never been informed of, invited to, or provided any info on their AP house they opened in my city. All of which is fine (I could reach out about AP house for instance), but it seems AP thinks I should chase them so I can spend my money on their brand. And IMO I think they have this backward, especially compared to other brands. For example, I just bought my first Ferrari a few months ago and the contrast could not be more different. The brand made it seem like they actually wanted me to be a long term customer. And when the sales guy needed help locking down his final allocation before year end, he knew I would be there to put down the deposit.

For me, doesn't really matter. I am not going to make some stormy exit from the brand (if I want something I will buy it), nor am I going to "check in" with a SA just for them to take notice. But I would like to think that they realize that the COVID market was an anomaly, and that at some point it might be good to have a stable base of demand you can count on long term. It's so much easier (and cheaper) to maintain an existing customer relationship than it is to acquire a new one (in normal times anyway). You never know, my SA may need to move some pieces to meet a quota at some point in the future, and wouldn't it be nice to have a list of people you can count on?

Summary -- I have lots of brands (watches and otherwise) competing for my discretionary spending, and it just seems AP is just not that interested. And perhaps they aren't and I should take a hint.

Agree with your points. Where AP fumbled the ball was not transitioning their existing clients that bought through their AD network to their boutiques. Clients with a long history with the brand like yourself before the COVID craze should have gotten preferential treatment instead of starting all over. This is where they failed to leverage their customer database. It was almost like your previous purchase history before the boutique model didn't count and you had to stand in line with all of the newcomers to the brand. It's kind of like what's happening to PP clients when their AD loses status.

I think the price increases were too aggressive too, but I do understand that they were trying to maximize their margins in an unprecedented market. I won't blame them for doing that as a business.

Welcome to the Ferrari world BTW. What did you purchase? You'll see the price increases they do for every new model they bring out. It's nuts!

At the end of the day, AP needs to focus their attention on client retention going forward. If the watch market reverts back to pre-Covid levels, they are going to need clients like us more than ever.

[dauster]

Originally Posted by NYG1121

Yeah same. I have documented in my previous posts about how annoyed I have been with how they have handled previous pre-hype customers. After a new store opened up in my city, I was told to switch to them from my previous boutique and after 2 years of zero opportunities for an allocation, I sold my last remaining AP in my collection a few years ago honestly in spite.

So I am not talking about boutique.. just secondary market prices. I am still sour enough that I don't feel like going in begging for watches anymore at the boutique and instead would rather just pay the market price now that they are a bit more reasonable.

I feel you but damn - sounds like the start of a revenge movie…


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[NYG1121]

Originally Posted by dauster

I feel you but damn - sounds like the start of a revenge movie…


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“revenge of the watch nerds”

[johnsonsxusfrt]

Many of the new 43mm Offshores need a serious $10K price reduction to make sense. AP went from $25K on the 42 ROOs to $40K-$45K on the 43 ROOs. That price point was a knee jerk reaction to Covid insanity on the secondary market.

AP always introduces new color schemes and material variants of their ROOs and I think the next series of 43s gives them an opportunity to correct the price by $5K-$10K. Would make much more sense given where the market is at present.

[squall1]

Lots to agree with here. I engaged the brand in early 2021, so there's no frustration around having to start over like some who have been customers prior to the new boutique model. I've been allocated nice stuff, but nothing truly major as of yet, that's fine, I understand that I'm a smaller fish. I love the ROO line, but the price increases just seem a bridge too far. I was a customer in the 30-40k range, but 45-60k or more? It's too much.

As far as engagement, I was told I'd be invited to golf, dinners, previews, etc. Not a single invite to anything like that. I've been getting some of the holiday gifts and a little swag which is nice. I guess I'm just starting to lose interest a bit. There's so much I just can't really afford or don't think offers good value (not talking about gray market value retention) and I guess I'd like some engagement from the brand that goes beyond just buying the watches. I do really love the brand and I don't think it's too much to ask when buying pieces in this price bracket.

[conkers]

Slightly off topic for which I apologise. I re-read that old thread from 2013 and I could have written my comments towards the end of it yesterday - I am gratified that my approach to collecting and taking advantage of pricing dynamic shifts hasn't changed in 10 years!

[GK12345EMAIL]

The boutiques sure don’t act like there is a lull

I was working with the Costa Mesa, CA boutique since 2022

They offered me watches I did not want (ladies 34 RO and an Offhsore which is just too large for my wrist but otherwise would love to have)

I was told by the first SA that it would take about a year to get a 37mm RO

After 1 1/2 years that SA left, and I later found out he had the wrong watches down on my interest list (39 mm jumbo, 37 mm diamond RO).

Another SA I later met reiterated to me that it would take about a year

I was supposed to meet the new SA on 1/6, Saturday, for a 2nd meeting. I don’t live in the area, and took a flight to meet her a day earlier than a planned business trip.

She wasn’t there. I texted her, and she has not replied back yet

That day, I met another SA there that brushed me off and said they only have tens of watches for hundreds on the list

And this was after my first meeting with the boutique Manager in 2022, where he told me “let’s see how we can put an AP on your wrist”

The arrogance is appalling

This boutique thinks bringing out a bottle of water or a cup of coffee defines their brand’s luxury experience, but wasting people’s time for 2 years is perfectly acceptable.

[psm11]

Originally Posted by GK12345EMAIL

The boutiques sure don’t act like there is a lull

I was working with the Costa Mesa, CA boutique since 2022

They offered me watches I did not want (ladies 34 RO and an Offhsore which is just too large for my wrist but otherwise would love to have)

I was told by the first SA that it would take about a year to get a 37mm RO

After 1 1/2 years that SA left, and I later found out he had the wrong watches down on my interest list (39 mm jumbo, 37 mm diamond RO).

Another SA I later met reiterated to me that it would take about a year

I was supposed to meet the new SA on 1/6, Saturday, for a 2nd meeting. I don’t live in the area, and took a flight to meet her a day earlier than a planned business trip.

She wasn’t there. I texted her, and she has not replied back yet

That day, I met another SA there that brushed me off and said they only have tens of watches for hundreds on the list

And this was after my first meeting with the boutique Manager in 2022, where he told me “let’s see how we can put an AP on your wrist”

The arrogance is appalling

This boutique thinks bringing out a bottle of water or a cup of coffee defines their brand’s luxury experience, but wasting people’s time for 2 years is perfectly acceptable.

I had a similar bad experience with them. There have been threads on here in the past discussing some of the shenanigans they pulled when they first opened and most of the original staff was fired.

The brand will never acknowledge there is a lull - but secondary prices don’t lie.


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[dchang81]

There was a research study that showed that luxury sales are higher when customers are treated like dirt. They definitely taking that to heart

[DonLee]

Originally Posted by johnsonsxusfrt

Many of the new 43mm Offshores need a serious $10K price reduction to make sense. AP went from $25K on the 42 ROOs to $40K-$45K on the 43 ROOs. That price point was a knee jerk reaction to Covid insanity on the secondary market.

AP always introduces new color schemes and material variants of their ROOs and I think the next series of 43s gives them an opportunity to correct the price by $5K-$10K. Would make much more sense given where the market is at present.

I always found it funny when the greatest selling point of an AP royal Oak is the hand finished bracelet. Somehow the rubber strap ROO is sold for more than a ROC…

[messikens]

Originally Posted by DonLee

I always found it funny when the greatest selling point of an AP royal Oak is the hand finished bracelet. Somehow the rubber strap ROO is sold for more than a ROC…

Tend to agree with you on all points. IMO as I've written before the ROO is about $7-12k overpriced. The old version was pretty okish priced and then due to the COVID craze IMO they went nuts with pricing...

I love the quick release but for $8k less you could (if you ever see an allocation) get a ROC with a much superior bracelet vs a rubber strap. Don't forget to make the ROO as comfortable you would need to get a deployant which will set you back and additional $1.8k...

And that comes from someone who wears his ROO daily

[Reign]

Originally Posted by messikens

Tend to agree with you on all points. IMO as I've written before the ROO is about $7-12k overpriced. The old version was pretty okish priced and then due to the COVID craze IMO they went nuts with pricing...

I love the quick release but for $8k less you could (if you ever see an allocation) get a ROC with a much superior bracelet vs a rubber strap. Don't forget to make the ROO as comfortable you would need to get a deployant which will set you back and additional $1.8k...

And that comes from someone who wears his ROO daily

I totally get what you’re saying and agree with you across the board.

Here’s my perspective from an AP PoV (all speculation).

42 offshores used to sell for $28 but with a modular chrono. The increase in pricing is warranted due to dropping that movement for a brand new integrated movement. Additionally, if you compare offshore pricing to Pateks 5968a (SS nautilus chrono) it is still 20% less than Patek.

I agree that current pricing is too high but I can see why AP used the switch to an integrated chrono to rebase pricing a bit all while still being at a discount to Patek. I don’t think the price hike at release in 2021 was covid related - the covid related price hikes and capturing grey margin happened in the last 24 months


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[dchang81]

Originally Posted by Reign

I totally get what you’re saying and agree with you across the board.

Here’s my perspective from an AP PoV (all speculation).

42 offshores used to sell for $28 but with a modular chrono. The increase in pricing is warranted due to dropping that movement for a brand new integrated movement. Additionally, if you compare offshore pricing to Pateks 5968a (SS nautilus chrono) it is still 20% less than Patek.

I agree that current pricing is too high but I can see why AP used the switch to an integrated chrono to rebase pricing a bit all while still being at a discount to Patek. I don’t think the price hike at release in 2021 was covid related - the covid related price hikes and capturing grey margin happened in the last 24 months


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I mean some of pateks pricing is pretty optimistic too...

[douglasj]

As a new customer, it’s crazy to see how much price has increased. It’s definitely off-putting.

[dauster]

Originally Posted by dchang81

I mean some of pateks pricing is pretty optimistic too...

I feel like Patek has always been like this though and they did not go overboard with opening their own brick and mortar shops around the world. Patek Ads will have to revert back to bundling and discounts. No way they are selling a 5172g (or pretty much any strap complication) at $90k including tax which is available in the low 60s - Ap will have to go back to discounting / price cuts too there is just no other way.


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[Reign]

Originally Posted by dauster

I feel like Patek has always been like this though and they did not go overboard with opening their own brick and mortar shops around the world. Patek Ads will have to revert back to bundling and discounts. No way they are selling a 5172g (or pretty much any strap complication) at $90k including tax which is available in the low 60s - Ap will have to go back to discounting / price cuts too there is just no other way.


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This was always the downside with opening brick and mortar, when the goings good, you make an absolute killing and take all margin.

But in a normal market, you end up having to hold all that inventory on your balance sheet vs Patek being able to force it down to ADs and off their books. Will be interesting to see what both brands do


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[dauster]

Originally Posted by Reign

This was always the downside with opening brick and mortar, when the goings good, you make an absolute killing and take all margin.

But in a normal market, you end up having to hold all that inventory on your balance sheet vs Patek being able to force it down to ADs and off their books. Will be interesting to see what both brands do


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Somehow I feel like the delusion of the last couple years is still running thru executives veins and we will see price increases across the board this year.


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[johnsonsxusfrt]

Originally Posted by dauster

Somehow I feel like the delusion of the last couple years is still running thru executives veins and we will see price increases across the board this year.


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that would be the proverbial bell signaling the top...

[Crob1]

Originally Posted by dauster

Somehow I feel like the delusion of the last couple years is still running thru executives veins and we will see price increases across the board this year.


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This hurts just reading it but seems like a possibility too.

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[codecow]

In 2013 you could walk into a boutique and see watches. In 2024, not so much.

[codecow]

Originally Posted by GK12345EMAIL

The boutiques sure don’t act like there is a lull

I was working with the Costa Mesa, CA boutique since 2022

They offered me watches I did not want (ladies 34 RO and an Offhsore which is just too large for my wrist but otherwise would love to have)

I was told by the first SA that it would take about a year to get a 37mm RO

After 1 1/2 years that SA left, and I later found out he had the wrong watches down on my interest list (39 mm jumbo, 37 mm diamond RO).

Another SA I later met reiterated to me that it would take about a year

I was supposed to meet the new SA on 1/6, Saturday, for a 2nd meeting. I don’t live in the area, and took a flight to meet her a day earlier than a planned business trip.

She wasn’t there. I texted her, and she has not replied back yet

That day, I met another SA there that brushed me off and said they only have tens of watches for hundreds on the list

And this was after my first meeting with the boutique Manager in 2022, where he told me “let’s see how we can put an AP on your wrist”

The arrogance is appalling

This boutique thinks bringing out a bottle of water or a cup of coffee defines their brand’s luxury experience, but wasting people’s time for 2 years is perfectly acceptable.

I was just down there and didn’t even go in because your experience is what I expected.

My wife wanted to look at VCA Alhambra to see what she wanted. Great SA, ended up buying two pieces and we got invited to a watch event in October.

The main difference is they had stock to sell.

[yachty 1]

I remember when Roos came out with the 44 mm at around 36500 or 36000. Then two years later they were 33 thousand I believe. Some people bought the red gold version that also dropped. People were mad but forgot real fast.

[Uros]

Originally Posted by Ramathorn

AP price decrease thread.

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=276905

Spextacle:) my first AP in 2015 was with 27perc discournt


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[gregouille]

Haha so cool reading that thread back in 2013. Good old times… Must have been cheap to get a 15202OR.