No hate..just curios..why did NASA decide to take the Omega Speedy over Rolex ?

[swils8610]

I recall reading somewhere that a Bulova was the runner up.


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[fivedime]

Originally Posted by swils8610

I recall reading somewhere that a Bulova was the runner up.


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The original RFP (c. 1962?) was sent by NASA to 10 watch companies. Only 4 responded (Omega, Rolex, Longines-Wittnauer, and Hamilton). Hamilton’s submittal was a pocket watch (!!!) so they were disqualified right off the bat. Only 3 brands’ watches were tested.

Bulova was one of the remaining 6 who failed to answer the original RFP. They did, however, provide many timers for the vehicles (including, I believe, the one that malfunctioned in Apollo 11’s LM, causing Armstrong to leave his watch in the vehicle as a backup [there’s that redundancy]) when he went out first. Also, later on in the program Bulova’s CEO (Retired General Omar Bradley!) raised a big stink, going as far as Congress, saying the watch worn by the astronauts should be made in America (or, he got jealous of the sales boost the association with the Apollo Program was giving Omega, and came up with a good angle to get some of that pie, maybe?). This caused NASA to have to go through the test and certification process all over again, with Bulova and many others responding this time. Once again, the Speedmaster was the only watch to survive most of the testing, but NASA and Omega had to do some chicanery anyway, with Omega sending unassembled watches that were put together in the USA (along with some parts made here…perhaps the cases?) to get around the “made in America” laws that Bulova and Bradley were leveraging.

And here’s the world’s oddest coincidence…Apollo 15 astronaut Dave Scott (or one of his friends, can’t recall the detail atm) was friends with Bradley, who was able to convince Scott to bring a Bulova chronograph along in his personal effects kit, you know, “just in case anything happened to the Omega”). Lo and behold, the only Speedmaster failure on the Moon was when Scott somehow “accidentally bumped his Speedmaster” and caused the crystal to pop off some time before their final lunar EVA. So, lucky him, he had that “backup” Bulova to use on his final time out. I am not one to impugn any astronaut’s honor, but I suspect that’s not *exactly* how that all played out. But, hey, it gave Bulova a hell of a story to market a quartz semi-look-alike 40-something years later

[fivedime]

Originally Posted by Dirt

My sincere apologies.
Some things i post are tounge in cheek stuff and it can be interspersed with facts and visa versa.
Yes they did indeed all have solid casebacks

As you note.
There was nothing commercially available at the time.
So i put it to you that it doesn't exclude an item being submitted for testing by NASA which is potentially in the development or pre-production stage.
Commercially available auto winders had been available since the early 1920's.
My personal early experience with Auto winders also includes Auto winders that can't be manually wound for love or money so that is something which is always a real possibility in the back of my own mind.
Whoever was involved with writing the acceptance criterior was a pretty savy individual/s and covered all relevant bases to render it down to the essentials.
One may even wonder if the criterior was writen to favour the Speedy for a number of reasons, but it was certainly a comprehensive validation process that can't be disputed.
After all, they did need to know conclusively, which watch was going to serve their purposes best out of what may be available to NASA and the Apollo programme

You can assume anything you’d like, as can anyone else (myself included) since whomever wrote the specifications for the RFP is probably not around anymore. But this was very early in the program (1962 or not long after) and “stuff under development” for wrist watches was probably the last thing on their minds. Hell, that early on they still didn’t have the moon vehicle’s architecture even hammered out yet. Nobody cared *that* much…it was just a damn watch…as evidenced by only 4 of the 10 companies originally requested submitting bids/watches for testing (with one of them being immediately disqualified, as discussed in my prior post for being a freaking POCKET WATCH). Nobody was going to attempt any high-tech development of a watch for astronauts, at least not that early on.
Again, it’s just my opinion (and you know they say about opinions…), but I would tend to believe the mention of “manually winding” was just some of the overly precise and vebose language tech writers love to throw in (and government agencies love to allow them to do so). Thankfully for those of us who have ever worked on any projects that push the limits of technology readiness, it’s also the kind of language that gets sprinkled in patents, making them TOO specific and therefore stupid easy to get around.

[toomuchtalk]

Originally Posted by padi56

Omega yes it too has a fine movement but then manual wind but only Buzz and Armstrong are the only people to say what the first watch on the moon was. IMO it was most likely a speedy with the Cal 321,there were other readings that a Waltham and a Rolex GMT were used as a back up.But everything I have read my only conclusion is that the Omega Speedmaster had the Cal 321 movement on the lunar landing based on the Lemania 27CHRO-C12 and the only true moon watch.

And its documented that Jack Swigert's wore a Rolex GMT-Master in the main lunar orbit ship, plus there was some kind of Bulova watch/clock somewhere in the spacecraft, but the claim that a Bulova time piece was on the Moon IMHO is little more than pure marketing by them. What I have read Aldrin's speedmaster was the first on the lunar surface, so its logical that he could have worn the same watch he had issued for the Gemini X11, IMO possibly a 1966 speedy when they first put professional on dial REF ST105012, perhaps the later 1968 ST 145.012 model was left in the ship as a back up timer for computer. But one of the most important things on board the Apollo lunar mission were the mechanical watches no matter what the brand.

Speedmaster's relationship with outer space,began when they went to Corrigans shop a Texas dealer in 1961.And the NASA buyer bought 5 different brands of chronographs and some failed the NASA test, the Omega Speedmaster was passed mainly IMHO because it was manual wind. NASA tested a number of other Speedmasters in the 1960s prior to Gemini Apollo flight. All these watches were before they changed to the Cal 861 movement, NASA bought another large quantity of Speedmasters in the later 60s,and in 1966 Omega added the word Professional to the speedy. It has been said that Neil Armstrong,had a problem with his watch,and did not wear one on the moons surface. I believe Aldrin's watch was lost or most probably stolen in transit somewhere after the mission.But lets remember this fact today, your average smart phone or home computer is several hundred times more powerful than the one used on the moon mission so a simple mechanical watch was most important.

Convenient that the Aldrin wathc was stolen- the first on the moon.

[INC]

Originally Posted by toomuchtalk

Convenient that the Aldrin wathc was stolen- the first on the moon.

The question arose: Is it safe to wear an Omega on the Moon?

[fskywalker]

Originally Posted by INC

The question arose: Is it safe to wear an Omega on the Moon?

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[sambb]

there is some debate on whether or not we actually went to the moon. Not wanting to open that can of worms, and Perhaps rolex wouldve been fine. That being said, i think it is impressive that the speedy has such great heritage. Probably the best heritage/history of any chrono.

[Kevin of Larchmont]

Originally Posted by sambb

there is some debate on whether or not we actually went to the moon. Not wanting to open that can of worms, and Perhaps rolex wouldve been fine. That being said, i think it is impressive that the speedy has such great heritage. Probably the best heritage/history of any chrono.

I suppose then that it’s also safe to say that there is some debate about whether or not the earth is flat as well. That too says more about people’s propensity for debate than it says about the facts.

[SudiYunus]

Originally Posted by Sergio_UKR

NASA Couldn't wait 2-3 years for an allocation from Rolex AD. :D

[MY-WATCH]

It is not convincing since MOST of those astronauts had GMTs (or other rolexes) with them (as their personal watches) please go check rolex magazine for tons of pictures and documentation on this matter

[MY-WATCH]

Originally Posted by MY-WATCH

It is not convincing since MOST of those astronauts had GMTs (or other rolexes) with them (as their personal watches) please go check rolex magazine for tons of pictures and documentation on this matter

https://www.rolexmagazine.com/2008/0...y.html#/page/2

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Kevin of Larchmont

I suppose then that it’s also safe to say that there is some debate about whether or not the earth is flat as well. That too says more about people’s propensity for debate than it says about the facts.

I’m not sure what you’re saying … the earth isn’t flat?

[fivedime]

Yes, a lot of astronauts wore personal watches under their pressure suits or brought them with them in their personal kits. There is even a website out there that is doing a remarkable job of cataloging every verified watch worn on space on all missions (plenty of Rolexes…GMTs among the pilots in the group, Datejusts [!] among the mission/payload specialists in the Shuttle era). There are also a LOT of G-Shocks and Timexes. Swatches were pretty popular in the early days of the Shuttle Program…oddly especially among female crew members. But the fact remains, only one watch has been, and remains, authorized by NASA for wear OUTSIDE the pressure suit during EVAs (and ascent/re-entry in the Shuttle era), and we all know what that watch os. Get over it. As far as whether or not any personal watches, Rolex or otherwise, were worn under the suits on EVAs during the Apollo Moon Program, that has never been credibly claimed or documented to my knowledge. So…I guess it matter what your definition of “worn on the Moon” is…

[INC]

Originally Posted by brandrea

I’m not sure what you’re saying … the earth isn’t flat?

Oh come on! This is a very outdated model, better listen to the scientists:

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by INC

Oh come on! This is a very outdated model, better listen to the scientists:

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[911991]

I heard NASA was afraid of Alien's robbing astronauts for their Rolex

[garyk]

Originally Posted by brandrea

I’m not sure what you’re saying … the earth isn’t flat?

[GMT Aviator]

Kind of ironic that all these tests picked the Speedy, and then the hesalite popped out of one moonwalkers Speedmaster during one of his moonwalks, resulting in all the hands getting mangled and totalling the watch.

Can’t remeber if that was Dave Scott or Gene Cernan. I think it was Dave Scott because that’s when he switched to his Bulova.

[jb335]

Stanley Kubrick thought it would look best for the film shoot.


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[fivedime]

Originally Posted by GMT Aviator

Kind of ironic that all these tests picked the Speedy, and then the hesalite popped out of one moonwalkers Speedmaster during one of his moonwalks, resulting in all the hands getting mangled and totalling the watch.

Can’t remeber if that was Dave Scott or Gene Cernan. I think it was Dave Scott because that’s when he switched to his Bulova.

It was Scott. And if you believe the only significant failure of a Speedmaster on the Moon was “an accident,” happening to the watch worn by the one astronaut who just happened to have a gift from his friend the CEO at Bulova (who had been pulling all kinds of underhanded crap for years trying to have NASA replace the Omega’s with his sub-par product) to act as a backup, well, ok….you *may* be correct…and maybe I’m just a cynic.

Maybe.

[Gearjockey]

Originally Posted by fivedime

It was Scott. And if you believe the only significant failure of a Speedmaster on the Moon was “an accident,” happening to the watch worn by the one astronaut who just happened to have a gift from his friend the CEO at Bulova (who had been pulling all kinds of underhanded crap for years trying to have NASA replace the Omega’s with his sub-par product) to act as a backup, well, ok….you *may* be correct…and maybe I’m just a cynic.

Maybe.

I’m a believer in what you’re implying.

Is Luke Talley still around?

[Deppe]

I don’t have the fantasy to imagine the collective meltdown that some watch forums will have if this is true, taking into account the reaction to the whole moon swatch thing.

[TomInNJ]

Originally Posted by fivedime

The original RFP (c. 1962?) was sent by NASA to 10 watch companies. Only 4 responded (Omega, Rolex, Longines-Wittnauer, and Hamilton). Hamilton’s submittal was a pocket watch (!!!) so they were disqualified right off the bat. Only 3 brands’ watches were tested.

Bulova was one of the remaining 6 who failed to answer the original RFP. They did, however, provide many timers for the vehicles (including, I believe, the one that malfunctioned in Apollo 11’s LM, causing Armstrong to leave his watch in the vehicle as a backup [there’s that redundancy]) when he went out first. Also, later on in the program Bulova’s CEO (Retired General Omar Bradley!) raised a big stink, going as far as Congress, saying the watch worn by the astronauts should be made in America (or, he got jealous of the sales boost the association with the Apollo Program was giving Omega, and came up with a good angle to get some of that pie, maybe?). This caused NASA to have to go through the test and certification process all over again, with Bulova and many others responding this time. Once again, the Speedmaster was the only watch to survive most of the testing, but NASA and Omega had to do some chicanery anyway, with Omega sending unassembled watches that were put together in the USA (along with some parts made here…perhaps the cases?) to get around the “made in America” laws that Bulova and Bradley were leveraging.

And here’s the world’s oddest coincidence…Apollo 15 astronaut Dave Scott (or one of his friends, can’t recall the detail atm) was friends with Bradley, who was able to convince Scott to bring a Bulova chronograph along in his personal effects kit, you know, “just in case anything happened to the Omega”). Lo and behold, the only Speedmaster failure on the Moon was when Scott somehow “accidentally bumped his Speedmaster” and caused the crystal to pop off some time before their final lunar EVA. So, lucky him, he had that “backup” Bulova to use on his final time out. I am not one to impugn any astronaut’s honor, but I suspect that’s not *exactly* how that all played out. But, hey, it gave Bulova a hell of a story to market a quartz semi-look-alike 40-something years later

This is exactly right, and your skepticism is well founded. Recall that the crew of Apollo 15, including Dave Scott, were responsible for the "postal covers incident," a.k.a., the stamp scandal. Scott, Worden, and Irwin got paid to carry 400 postal covers to the moon with them, which were later sold at super high prices by the dealer who paid the crew. This was a minor scandal for the Apollo program. So it's not too far fetched to think that Bulova, or someone working at Bulova's direction, paid Scott to take the Bulova to the moon and find an excuse to use during one of the lunar excursions. Obviously, there is no direct evidence of this, but the alternative explanation is one hell of a coincidence.

[flyinghell34]

I have done quite a bit of research into space worn watches, both the Speedmaster and Rolex GMT.

Here is a short piece from an article written about my work. I still love the part at the end from astronaut Ed Mitchell who famously took along two Rolex 1675 GMT watches during his Apollo 14 mission.

"There was a discussion one day on one of the forums where someone was asking if astronauts needed to be reminded to wind their Speedmasters daily. At the time I was beginning the preparation process with Ed Mitchell and was also engaged in an email conversation with another astronaut, I decided to pose the question to them both and see if I could get an answer to share. I sent off an email to the astronaut asking “Do you recall getting a reminder from mission control or a specific checklist item reminding you to wind your watches daily?” His reply was “We were all pretty bright guys back then and we were smart enough to remember to wind our watches. It’s like shaving, you just do it every day.”

In a brief phone conversation with Dr. Mitchell I got an answer I wasn’t expecting at all. When I asked him the same question there was a brief pause, and then he said: “I never worried about winding my watch, I wore a Rolex.”

[jlovda]

My wife and I were very fortunate to have a personal tour of the main Rolex headquarters in Geneva in 1983. In the main front lobby there was a GMT in a display case that was worn by one of the Apollo astronauts. I do not remember what flight or individual.

[jlovda]

Originally Posted by fivedime

The original RFP (c. 1962?) was sent by NASA to 10 watch companies. Only 4 responded (Omega, Rolex, Longines-Wittnauer, and Hamilton). Hamilton’s submittal was a pocket watch (!!!) so they were disqualified right off the bat. Only 3 brands’ watches were tested.

Bulova was one of the remaining 6 who failed to answer the original RFP. They did, however, provide many timers for the vehicles (including, I believe, the one that malfunctioned in Apollo 11’s LM, causing Armstrong to leave his watch in the vehicle as a backup [there’s that redundancy]) when he went out first. Also, later on in the program Bulova’s CEO (Retired General Omar Bradley!) raised a big stink, going as far as Congress, saying the watch worn by the astronauts should be made in America (or, he got jealous of the sales boost the association with the Apollo Program was giving Omega, and came up with a good angle to get some of that pie, maybe?). This caused NASA to have to go through the test and certification process all over again, with Bulova and many others responding this time. Once again, the Speedmaster was the only watch to survive most of the testing, but NASA and Omega had to do some chicanery anyway, with Omega sending unassembled watches that were put together in the USA (along with some parts made here…perhaps the cases?) to get around the “made in America” laws that Bulova and Bradley were leveraging.

And here’s the world’s oddest coincidence…Apollo 15 astronaut Dave Scott (or one of his friends, can’t recall the detail atm) was friends with Bradley, who was able to convince Scott to bring a Bulova chronograph along in his personal effects kit, you know, “just in case anything happened to the Omega”). Lo and behold, the only Speedmaster failure on the Moon was when Scott somehow “accidentally bumped his Speedmaster” and caused the crystal to pop off some time before their final lunar EVA. So, lucky him, he had that “backup” Bulova to use on his final time out. I am not one to impugn any astronaut’s honor, but I suspect that’s not *exactly* how that all played out. But, hey, it gave Bulova a hell of a story to market a quartz semi-look-alike 40-something years later

Was this Bulova mechanical or a tuning fork Accutron? Accutrons were in existence in the early 60's.

[flyinghell34]

Originally Posted by jlovda

My wife and I were very fortunate to have a personal tour of the main Rolex headquarters in Geneva in 1983. In the main front lobby there was a GMT in a display case that was worn by one of the Apollo astronauts. I do not remember what flight or individual.

I believe that is the Rolex GMT that Jack Swigert wore on Apollo 13 that he gifted to Rolex.

[fivedime]

Originally Posted by jlovda

Was this Bulova mechanical or a tuning fork Accutron? Accutrons were in existence in the early 60's.

Manual-wind mechanical. According to some reports, a re-branded Universal Geneve (“Buy American” indeed ). Indicative of the lengths of snake-in-the-grass tomfoolery to which Bulova was willing to resort in order to get its watches onto the arms of astronauts. Much like the tomfoolery of today that has folks convinced a cheap, quartz, somewhat-look-alike is “the same watch Dave Scott wore on the Moon.”

[Zach69SS]

This is where the term for exhibition only was coined?

[Scholar]

Amazing how many bizarre things are being mentioned, like the manual wind and acrylic crystal, when the Daytona would remain both for decades after. It was the norm. The first auto chronograph to come out was a Seiko which was in fact taken into space by an astronaut. As for why didn't they take a Submariner (wow people are obsessed with that watch); the spec was for a chronograph...

Originally Posted by Deppe

I don’t have the fantasy to imagine the collective meltdown that some watch forums will have if this is true, taking into account the reaction to the whole moon swatch thing.

Incredible how even the lies on social media are simply downstream of blogs and forums.

This "story" from this account is something made up on "Jake's Rolex" blog years ago and was thoroughly discredited on this very forum at the time.