5470P monopusher split second

[raclaims]

Didn’t have time for a shorter one lol

Love it and agree with many of your points

See short and sweet !

[7sins]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Good point, yet alas no. That would mean there will never be a truly high-end Calatrava produced that provides 'full expression' of the art/language to PP's best abilities. If you look around at what's going on with 'simple time' wrist instruments from other brands (dare we include Seiko), PP is (huuuge imho) not able to compete within that arena's 'horological language' at PP's given price structure imho. To use youthful verbiage, perhaps PP should 'flex' just a bit more? (not a lot, just a bit, call it ~25% leanings more towards RR plus a bit of...).

Then there's....

imho

imho

<ducks for cover, because even i kinda sorta see your point, yet....>

Fully understand that Patek would never want to be, for example, Czapek with their SXH5 calibre. That's not the 'horological language' of PP. Yet look at VC, or even Grand Seiko.

ALS does some very artistic expression.

Imho, and i can't believe i'm using my 'out loud' voice to say this, Patek is simply falling behind when it comes to various things. And since this is only my opinion (and this is the Internet folks, so please fully ignore me as am totally cool with that), this is just me, my opinion, just a guy on the internet.

PP is capable of more, much more. Of this i am thoroughly convinced!

Another question, let's say it goes upscale as i feel it should be.... is the craft done in-house, or like others who hire out? It's common knowledge this happens with various brands. And if PP hires out, am 100% cool with that yet let's thank these craftspeople who dedicated many years in... by naming names.

Let's also remember this is a HUMAN endeavor of love. (Well, for some of us it is love... as there may be heavy-handed bean counters lurking around with some companies).

Uh oh, probably an irrelevant side-story...
Look, i worked at Heathkit many years ago and we had the Most Accurate Clock. Digital, precise, and sold many of them to TV stations, a few Ham radio guys, etc. But it's not... ummm.... but it's accurate as heck!

Side story aside, and getting back to the language, expression if you will, of watchmaking, this is where, and proving my 'insanity(?)', guys like Max and FRIENDS work together on mechanical wrist art (which happens to also operate in a rhythmic manner that enables the machine to 'tell the time'... perhaps date, etc). It's a different language to be sure.

i best stop typing. In the end, use your eyes. Look at it, does it truly 'speak' to you. Ignore the 'noise' of....

Is this something that brings joyous time into your life? If your answer is yes, then imho it doesn't matter if it is my Hamilton PSR MTX, vintage Spaceview, SkyD, PP 3820rg, Speedy, Cartier Tank, Monaco GULF, Panerai TRON, MB&F LM101 Willy Wonka... or the fun-loving Sherman by L'Epee 1839 & Friends.

Would love to once again become a customer of PP, yet for now, there's nothing there that truly excites at 'normal' levels we mere mortals could consider. There are far better out there at the same 'ask', which speak to me more. It's me, just how i personally feel. Again, am just a guy on the internet.

Some love classical music, others opera, and still, others love prog, or jazz, or rap.... In a sense, think of today's various 'modern' horology 'languages' like music genres. One man's blues is another man's salvation.

Thanks for your time if you read this far. Apologies for a long post, i didn't have time to write a shorter one.

PS: Hmmm, kinda funny... this song just started on my background music stream.

That was a great read, thanks for taking the time to write your thoughts. Agree with many of your comments.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by raclaims

Didn’t have time for a shorter one lol
Love it and agree with many of your points
See short and sweet !

Some other writer coined the long/short phrase, I forget the writer's name so they are to be thanked. Fun phrase to accentuate...

Originally Posted by 7sins

That was a great read, thanks for taking the time to write your thoughts. Agree with many of your comments.

Thank you.

But see, when I got 'really serious' the 5035 was announced. Innovation, an annual calendar at 'reasonable' pricing at the time. Got one. Then soon-ish after came out the 5110, first of it's kind for PP in many years. Yup, added. To me, these were exciting times and Patek was on-point. Eventually, thanks to personal hard work and more hard work... someone at PP can look up my name and piecesssssssss, as I'd rather simply say there's no doubt their timepieces inspired me.

Heck, I even had the gold-colored 5110 dealer wall clock! Yes it's metal, yes it weighs a lot, and yes it works. Changed the batteries myself at some point as we had it for years.

Anywho, look, imho, and just maybe it's just me. I feel there's something more that could be done from PP, but isn't. Like stagnation as the world passes PP by.

imho

It 'doesn't help' that independents are truly 'killing it' (imho). Look, PP will never be MB&F. Nor FPJ. But when I look at Grand Seiko, why would I consider a Calatrava judging by what my eyes see????????

Hope my plea does not fall on deaf ears, but in the end there are so many great watchmakers today... even great guys like Torsti Laine is keeping busy. In fact, go look at what he's doing, the hours he invests, the craft, custom options he offers (yes, custom)... then see what he's asking for them.

Sorry PP, maybe at some point we shall meet again.

jmho as I see it. As always, am just a guy on the internet. In a weird way am glad PP is doing well, takes the 'customer stress' off of watchmakers that inspire me and are already booked for years ahead. All that extra currency has to go somewhere... until the next cycle begins. We've been there through two or three financial cycles. Enjoy the good times.

[Ichiran]

The reality now is Patek sells every watch it manufactured without discount, whether it is Calatrava, Complications, GC, ladies or sports (I wish it is easier to get the green 5270P that I am requesting for). Their strategy is clearly working and they are never in a better position. Sure, some of us may prefer a handmade Patek and if there is a justifiable demand, there is no reason why they won't do it (Patek produces 50 rare handcrafts every year and these are all sold at W&W amongst thousands of applicants). Who knows, maybe Patek will produce low quantity/limited edition Duffour/Voutilainen type of watches with extensive manual guilloche and with 10 inward angles with the widest anglage in the future when the market asks for it.

[DonLee]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

The reality now is Patek sells every watch it manufactured without discount, whether it is Calatrava, Complications, GC, ladies or sports (I wish it is easier to get the green 5270P that I am requesting for). Their strategy is clearly working and they are never in a better position. Sure, some of us may prefer a handmade Patek and if there is a justifiable demand, there is no reason why they won't do it (Patek produces 50 rare handcrafts every year and these are all sold at W&W amongst thousands of applicants). Who knows, maybe Patek will produce low quantity/limited edition Duffour/Voutilainen type of watches with extensive manual guilloche and with 10 inward angles with the widest anglage in the future when the market asks for it.

not exactly... they've always had models that didn't sell well, like some twenty-4's, world timers and annual calendars and even the 5320 perpetual calendar. It's just that everyone knew they were cheaper on the grey market. Once rumours had it that many were being discontinued, people snatched up whatever was left.

It's tiring hearing the words, "what's the point, not like anyone can get one". well, people do get them, and they used to sit in windows for long periods of time.

The most expensive models are often available. If you ask for a grand complication that's north of $200k, chances of getting a watch within a year is very possible. But few are lining up to do this because they think it's not as good of an investment proposition and that there's no hurry to snatch it up before the next person.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by DonLee

not exactly... they've always had models that didn't sell well, like some twenty-4's, world timers and annual calendars and even the 5320 perpetual calendar. It's just that everyone knew they were cheaper on the grey market. Once rumours had it that many were being discontinued, people snatched up whatever was left.

It's tiring hearing the words, "what's the point, not like anyone can get one". well, people do get them, and they used to sit in windows for long periods of time.

The most expensive models are often available. If you ask for a grand complication that's north of $200k, chances of getting a watch within a year is very possible. But few are lining up to do this because they think it's not as good of an investment proposition and that there's no hurry to snatch it up before the next person.

Or so I thought until 2 different AD last month told me I can't buy anything even if I walk in with 2m cash, because there is nothing to buy. Every watch has an interest list, including the ones beyond 200k. As I mentioned earlier, the new 5270P has 15 keen interests on the 1st day I asked my AD. These requests I understand are all from long time customers. AD only receives 1 piece a year so we can work out the maths.

The only way to buy Patek is via multiple Franck Muller, UN, Breguet, Blancpain, Hublot etc or jewellery (Emperor is good in that regard).

[HMHM]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Or so I thought until 2 different AD last month told me I can't buy anything even if I walk in with 2m cash, because there is nothing to buy. Every watch has an interest list, including the ones beyond 200k. As I mentioned earlier, the new 5270P has 15 keen interests on the 1st day I asked my AD. These requests I understand are all from long time customers. AD only receives 1 piece a year so we can work out the maths.

The only way to buy Patek is via multiple Franck Muller, UN, Breguet, Blancpain, Hublot etc or jewellery (Emperor is good in that regard).

Unfortunately Michael, the market you are in is CRAZY! When a guy like Santa_laura resides in your shore, it’s a tough situation to be in.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

As I mentioned earlier, the new 5270P has 15 keen interests on the 1st day I asked my AD. These requests I understand are all from long time customers.

This was also the case with the salmon dial, but the demand evaporated over 18 months until they were available in AD's windows before the hype kicked in again with news it was being discontinued and the prices and demand firmed up. Timing is everything - best of luck.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by HMHM

Unfortunately Michael, the market you are in is CRAZY! When a guy like Santa_laura resides in your shore, it’s a tough situation to be in.

Indeed. I do like his collection though. He is a proper watch enthusiast

Originally Posted by Russell996

This was also the case with the salmon dial, but the demand evaporated over 18 months until they were available in AD's windows before the hype kicked in again with news it was being discontinued and the prices and demand firmed up. Timing is everything - best of luck.

Thanks Russell, I certainly hope the interest calms down. Even the likes of 5270J and 5270/1R are difficult but

[QuelleHeureEstIl]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

The only way to buy Patek is via multiple Franck Muller, UN, Breguet, Blancpain, Hublot etc or jewellery (Emperor is good in that regard).

Unfortunately, the current trend is that each **successful** brand want to control the allocation, eat the margin and enjoy the easy wave. So they want to verticalize and therefore own their boutique. The obvious exception being rolex (due to the volume).

ALS, AP, FPJ, etc.

In Geneva, Bucherer has been losing many brands during the last years.

So when we love several brands, we need to waste a lot more time and money to build trust and history.

And let not speak about our (my) self-estime when we need to demean (prostitu..?) to cave in to all the sell guys' demands for each brand...

Jean-Claude Biver famously said that "Brands need to keep the customers frustrated." But we are now over that. Angry, pissed, furious, betrayed?

Sad times for the real horology geeks like us... :(

[V25V]

I will never own another chrono again, totally useless complication in my eyes these days. Impressive engineering but no way I would spend money on one, let alone that much for one!

[kaiserphoenix]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I doubt FPJ watches have many handcrafting elements. Their guilloche is stamped and you don't see sharp inward angles (a sign that the bevel on a movement is manually hand-finished) in their movements. Patek at least still do hand-turn guilloche on their Worldtime and some GC, and finishes their repeater movements with sharp inward angles.

And there are also time resource and price factors. Patek produces 60,000 watches a year and their 3-hander Calatrava is sold at a tiny fraction (in terms of pricing) of Kari's handmade watches. We can't expect the finishing on a Calatrava to be the same as the 28 given the vast difference in pricing. I also doubt Patek is able to scale up its number of watchmakers to the extent they can match Kari's finishing on every watch, even if they want to, because such talents are limited. Finally, do consumers want to pay 120k for a basic Calatrava? The market would be a much smaller one, and this will also affect Patek's revenue (+ profit) where it matters the most.

Exactly!! Yes I love Patek and own many of their watches, but I don't consider myself a blind fanboy. Could Patek do better with their finishing? Sure, but as you correctly state, Patek's pricing is much lower than many independents at similar complication levels and also, many of Patek's other components, like case design, case manufacture, reliability (a big thing), consistency of quality, the after service network and availability of support etc. This all counts towards the watch that is Patek Philippe. I have a 5236 and it has no inward angles on the movement. Its $130K for a perpetual. Is it expensive? Yes but not outrageously so and other "independent" perpetuals cost much more and are thicker or bigger and more prone to issues as well. Pros and Cons. FPJ rarely gets criticized but the movement finishing is fairly basic in all honesty. Are his watches excellent? Yes! Watches like the chronometre Optimum are super interesting and negates the average finishing with other factors.

[kaiserphoenix]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Good point, yet alas no. That would mean there will never be a truly high-end Calatrava produced that provides 'full expression' of the art/language to PP's best abilities. If you look around at what's going on with 'simple time' wrist instruments from other brands (dare we include Seiko), PP is (huuuge imho) not able to compete within that arena's 'horological language' at PP's given price structure imho. To use youthful verbiage, perhaps PP should 'flex' just a bit more? (not a lot, just a bit, call it ~25% leanings more towards RR plus a bit of...).

Then there's....

imho

imho

<ducks for cover, because even i kinda sorta see your point, yet....>

Fully understand that Patek would never want to be, for example, Czapek with their SXH5 calibre. That's not the 'horological language' of PP. Yet look at VC, or even Grand Seiko.

ALS does some very artistic expression.

Imho, and i can't believe i'm using my 'out loud' voice to say this, Patek is simply falling behind when it comes to various things. And since this is only my opinion (and this is the Internet folks, so please fully ignore me as am totally cool with that), this is just me, my opinion, just a guy on the internet.

PP is capable of more, much more. Of this i am thoroughly convinced!

Another question, let's say it goes upscale as i feel it should be.... is the craft done in-house, or like others who hire out? It's common knowledge this happens with various brands. And if PP hires out, am 100% cool with that yet let's thank these craftspeople who dedicated many years in... by naming names.

Let's also remember this is a HUMAN endeavor of love. (Well, for some of us it is love... as there may be heavy-handed bean counters lurking around with some companies).

Uh oh, probably an irrelevant side-story...
Look, i worked at Heathkit many years ago and we had the Most Accurate Clock. Digital, precise, and sold many of them to TV stations, a few Ham radio guys, etc. But it's not... ummm.... but it's accurate as heck!

Side story aside, and getting back to the language, expression if you will, of watchmaking, this is where, and proving my 'insanity(?)', guys like Max and FRIENDS work together on mechanical wrist art (which happens to also operate in a rhythmic manner that enables the machine to 'tell the time'... perhaps date, etc). It's a different language to be sure.

i best stop typing. In the end, use your eyes. Look at it, does it truly 'speak' to you. Ignore the 'noise' of....

Is this something that brings joyous time into your life? If your answer is yes, then imho it doesn't matter if it is my Hamilton PSR MTX, vintage Spaceview, SkyD, PP 3820rg, Speedy, Cartier Tank, Monaco GULF, Panerai TRON, MB&F LM101 Willy Wonka... or the fun-loving Sherman by L'Epee 1839 & Friends.

Would love to once again become a customer of PP, yet for now, there's nothing there that truly excites at 'normal' levels we mere mortals could consider. There are far better out there at the same 'ask', which speak to me more. It's me, just how i personally feel. Again, am just a guy on the internet.

Some love classical music, others opera, and still, others love prog, or jazz, or rap.... In a sense, think of today's various 'modern' horology 'languages' like music genres. One man's blues is another man's salvation.

Thanks for your time if you read this far. Apologies for a long post, i didn't have time to write a shorter one.

PS: Hmmm, kinda funny... this song just started on my background music stream.

Not quite sure what you mean when you say PP isnt able to compete with the likes of lange or GS ??? Lange wins on finishing, marginally I must say. I admit their finishing is superior. But what about other factors? Like Case design and manufacture? Lange literally has 1 single case shape with lugs soldered on with screws from the inside. They use this on EVERY single model. That is a cost saving no matter how you spin it. Its their character also. Grand Seiko? Sure they have superb dials and hands and indices. Many of their calibres are way too thick or finishing is absolutely NOT on the level of Patek or even JLC. Patek in the 3 hander category has one of the best "most balanced" product. Not the best at anything in particular but well balanced.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I would love to own a Simplicity but did not have the luck at the 10 piece lottery. Hope to get lucky for the RRCC2. This is sheer horological finishing flex.

Attachment 1284406

Attachment 1284407
Photos from SJX.

Did you get an allocation? I was told that it is all sold out before it was announced and wrote my essay to be on the CC3 interest list which I don’t think I will ever be picked.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by llngoc

Did you get an allocation? I was told that it is all sold out before it was announced and wrote my essay to be on the CC3 interest list which I don’t think I will ever be picked.

Not too sure to be honest. I doubt the RRCC2 is sold out yet but AD might know their allocation already. Hope to work something out with my AD.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Not too sure to be honest. I doubt the RRCC2 is sold out yet but AD might know their allocation already. Hope to work something out with my AD.

It was Annabelle who told me about 3 months back. But maybe it did not count the allocations already done for the ADs.

[QuelleHeureEstIl]

Originally Posted by kaiserphoenix

Grand Seiko? Sure they have superb dials and hands and indices. Many of their calibres are way too thick or finishing is absolutely NOT on the level of Patek or even JLC.

Remember that Grand Seiko (as independent) is a young company (2017).

They delivered a lot in such a short time (https://youtu.be/1OcTV4ZfHsM?t=465)

The Micro studio hired Philippe Dufour to learn/use his technics and adapted the tools/wood to approach his finish quality.

I wonder what they will be able to produce in the future.

As a challenger, with the Japanese mentality and with all the traditional know-how in art (Ceramic, metal, wood, etc), they could surprise us in the future.

NB: As a Swiss, I am only allowed to admire them anonymously on this forum. My friends would place me under forced guardianship for saying that.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by kaiserphoenix

Exactly!! Yes I love Patek and own many of their watches, but I don't consider myself a blind fanboy. Could Patek do better with their finishing? Sure, but as you correctly state, Patek's pricing is much lower than many independents at similar complication levels and also, many of Patek's other components, like case design, case manufacture, reliability (a big thing), consistency of quality, the after service network and availability of support etc. This all counts towards the watch that is Patek Philippe. I have a 5236 and it has no inward angles on the movement. Its $130K for a perpetual. Is it expensive? Yes but not outrageously so and other "independent" perpetuals cost much more and are thicker or bigger and more prone to issues as well. Pros and Cons. FPJ rarely gets criticized but the movement finishing is fairly basic in all honesty. Are his watches excellent? Yes! Watches like the chronometre Optimum are super interesting and negates the average finishing with other factors.

Yes and as GB2 posted, the aesthetics, history and complications are also factors other than finishing. I'm inclined to think that many of us posting in this sub-forum are drawn to Patek's design language (not the only factor of course). Sometimes we wear a watch simply because we love the way it looks. Same with FPJ - I like the whimsical look of their dials. His watches are so cool mechanically and creatively too.

Nice 5236P you got.

[Nicof]

Originally Posted by llngoc

It was Annabelle who told me about 3 months back. But maybe it did not count the allocations already done for the ADs.

Same.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Calatrava r]

Not a big fan of this release. To me it is looks sort of whimsical for a 400K watch.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Uros

Would it put me on the list for Nautilus?:):)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Someone who gets approved for this probably already had his/her share of Nautilius already.

[ts3]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

...

But see, when I got 'really serious' the 5035 was announced. Innovation, an annual calendar at 'reasonable' pricing at the time. Got one. Then soon-ish after came out the 5110, first of it's kind for PP in many years. Yup, added. To me, these were exciting times and Patek was on-point. Eventually, thanks to personal hard work and more hard work... someone at PP can look up my name and piecesssssssss, as I'd rather simply say there's no doubt their timepieces inspired me.

Heck, I even had the gold-colored 5110 dealer wall clock! Yes it's metal, yes it weighs a lot, and yes it works. Changed the batteries myself at some point as we had it for years.

...

Guess who I have been thinking of when I saw the gold-colored 5110 wall clock at an AD in Salzburg this afternoon...

[GeraldGentaFan]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Not too sure to be honest. I doubt the RRCC2 is sold out yet but AD might know their allocation already. Hope to work something out with my AD.

RRCC2 is fully sold out and heavily oversubscribed. But as the price is likely going up from CHF90k to CHF120k, maybe some will be canceled…but I doubt it.

[jcoltrane]

Originally Posted by Calatrava r

Not a big fan of this release. To me it is looks sort of whimsical for a 400K watch.

Precisely why I hope to get one! Patek's sports watches have become a ridiculous status symbol, I love being able to wear their dress watches without anyone noticing or caring.

[dauster]

Originally Posted by jcoltrane

Precisely why I hope to get one! Patek's sports watches have become a ridiculous status symbol, I love being able to wear their dress watches without anyone noticing or caring.

Holy moly, may I ask about the rest of your collection if you are considering this piece? Any enamel / rare handcrafts / minute repeaters I can drool over ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by GeraldGentaFan

RRCC2 is fully sold out and heavily oversubscribed. But as the price is likely going up from CHF90k to CHF120k, maybe some will be canceled…but I doubt it.

My AD is checking on this (Akrivia has not officially announced now many they are making)... Will update again.

[Nicof]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

My AD is checking on this (Akrivia has not officially announced now many they are making)... Will update again.

The UK AD told me they were sold out two years ago already the moment they were announced basically.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Nicof

The UK AD told me they were sold out two years ago already the moment they were announced basically.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good news is that CC3 interest list is being formed. But I doubt I will ever get picked as I am a bad essay writer.

[EpicCollector]

I asked for this watch... (already waiting on an application piece).

Best case - apply next year. Approved at end of 2023. Wait 18 months after that to get it.

Its a full-on Geneva application piece unfortunately.

[Crown & Shield]

Originally Posted by QuelleHeureEstIl

Unfortunately, the current trend is that each **successful** brand want to control the allocation, eat the margin and enjoy the easy wave. So they want to verticalize and therefore own their boutique. The obvious exception being rolex (due to the volume).

ALS, AP, FPJ, etc.

In Geneva, Bucherer has been losing many brands during the last years.

So when we love several brands, we need to waste a lot more time and money to build trust and history.

And let not speak about our (my) self-estime when we need to demean (prostitu..?) to cave in to all the sell guys' demands for each brand...

Jean-Claude Biver famously said that "Brands need to keep the customers frustrated." But we are now over that. Angry, pissed, furious, betrayed?

Sad times for the real horology geeks like us... :(