How much is paper worth?

[jfoord27]

Originally Posted by CDNWatchNut

outdated warranty papers and the original box are nice to have, but I think on a common and realtively modern watch, I'd take a valid recent RSC warranty card and a service pouch over them, for the same price. So yes, they have value, but to me, it cant be more than the current cost of a full RSC service...perhaps half the value or less?

Are you saying that if you bought a watch for say $5k with no papers, you would take it to a RSC for a service (to authenticate the watch) so your total cost is $5k +service cost, and thus you wouldn't pay any more than [$5k+service cost] for the watch with papers?

[CDNWatchNut]

Originally Posted by jfoord27

Are you saying that if you bought a watch for say $5k with no papers, you would take it to a RSC for a service (to authenticate the watch) so your total cost is $5k +service cost, and thus you wouldn't pay any more than [$5k+service cost] for the watch with papers?

I'm saying that I would pay more for a used Rolex that had a recent RSC service with warranty in a service pouch, than I would for a used Rolex with a long expired warranty paper in a box, and no recent RSC service. I'm not talking about a rare collectible watch, just a common run of the mill "modern" Rolex.

And correct, I would not pay even close to the cost of a service as a premium for a watch that had long outdated warranty papers and a box. Again, not talking rare collecible pieces here.

And finally, I see no point in servicing a watch for authentication purposes only as that can be done by a knowledgeable watchmaker relatively inexpensively without a service.

[DramaTurtle]

I would say around $1k generally for a modern ref.

[run23]

Let's not overthink this. The market says papers are worth $500-$1000, so that's what they're worth. No use in arguing whether it makes sense (just as there is no use in arguing that the huge premium for a faded bezel or patina because the lume has crapped out makes sense). It just is what it is.

I always buy the seller, so papers don't give me any extra comfort. But I will insist on paying less for no papers because that's the way the resale market works.

[PatagoniaDan]

Originally Posted by ronricks

If paying $500 more for a piece of outdated paper makes you feel better so be it. I can understand the papers for a vintage piece somewhat but for modern mass produced Rolex it doesn't mean anything. Once the warranty is expired it proves nothing. Service papers actually prove several things. I'll let you figure it out.

I disagree with this, and not just from a value standpoint of box and papers. I just like to have everything that came with the original sale of the watch. It is something I am willing to pay a premium for. And I know many others feel the same way.

You can try to invalidate the opinions of others, but what you are stating that papers "doesn't mean anything" is just factually incorrect from a value standpoint for purchase and selling.

[Bigsykedaddy]

Originally Posted by PatagoniaDan

I disagree with this, and not just from a value standpoint of box and papers. I just like to have everything that came with the original sale of the watch. It is something I am willing to pay a premium for. And I know many others feel the same way.

You can try to invalidate the opinions of others, but what you are stating that papers "doesn't mean anything" is just factually incorrect from a value standpoint for purchase and selling.

I'm the same way. With anything I buy I always prefer the full set.

[Mick P]

Originally Posted by jfoord27

Is there a way to authenticate the papers? E.g. if I have a seriel number and a purchase receipt with an AD's details and purchase date, would I be able to contact the AD or Rolex and ask them to verify prior to purchase? Assuming they provide this service, wouldn't I then be able to prove the authenticity of the watch and then there would be real value in the paperwork?

foord

If you take your Rolex into an AD, they will be able to tell you where the watch was originally purchased and the date. In that sense you can verify the paperwork.

The problem is that papers are like vintage wine, everyone is scared to call the bluff. You know that people will pay £1million or $1million for a very old rare bottle of wine. Of course, no one really knows if the wine is still drinkable, so after a while, they sell it on at a profit and so it goes on.

People normally just look at the papers and then store them away and hardly ever check. They want to be able to say "I bought the watch in good faith and then sold it in good faith".

I would sum up the situation by saying papers do add value to any collectible item but the papers themselves are easily forged very cheaply and it goes on a lot and up to a point, Rolex owners are in denial that the problem even exists. This is why print faking is so rife.

Regards

Mick

[rootbeer7]

To add my previous point, by getting a service done at any RSC, you not only get current papers and proof of authenticity, but a guarantee as well

[rolehex]

For that year and reference, for me I would value the B&P at $600 combined.

[The Libertine]

Originally Posted by jfoord27

Are you saying that if you bought a watch for say $5k with no papers, you would take it to a RSC for a service (to authenticate the watch) so your total cost is $5k +service cost, and thus you wouldn't pay any more than [$5k+service cost] for the watch with papers?

If the watch was sold without and indication of service history, I expect it would be reasonable to send it in to RSC for a servicing.

[Abdullah71601]

For a modern watch (for me that means luminova), B&P shouldn't be worth more than $500. If the watch has no B&P I will negotiate $500 off the price. I'm not going to pay more than $500 for B&P and will negotiate that down if the seller thinks they are worth more.

Today's buyers have been educated by the many collectable markets to know that resale value is impacted by a clean box and provenance. But years ago, that stuff often went to the trash. A vintage watch with B&P is a rarer bird and the accessories should have more value.

FWIW, I couldn't care less about B&P. In context of what a watch is for, it seems a tad anal to me to need some new clutter in my closet to feel I have purchased a proper watch. But, it's a fact of the market that they have cash value in the transaction.

[Chrispare]

A personal example : I own a sub LV y serie , proposed it to a second hand dealer in Paris ; he offered me 2500 euros more for the watch if it had the original papers ( I have the box, a rolex service done two years ago but not the original papers )

[jfoord27]

Originally Posted by Mick P

foord

If you take your Rolex into an AD, they will be able to tell you where the watch was originally purchased and the date. In that sense you can verify the paperwork.

The problem is that papers are like vintage wine, everyone is scared to call the bluff. You know that people will pay £1million or $1million for a very old rare bottle of wine. Of course, no one really knows if the wine is still drinkable, so after a while, they sell it on at a profit and so it goes on.

People normally just look at the papers and then store them away and hardly ever check. They want to be able to say "I bought the watch in good faith and then sold it in good faith".

I would sum up the situation by saying papers do add value to any collectible item but the papers themselves are easily forged very cheaply and it goes on a lot and up to a point, Rolex owners are in denial that the problem even exists. This is why print faking is so rife.

Regards

Mick

Thanks, I'll do that next time to verify the papers.

[ronricks]

Originally Posted by PatagoniaDan

I disagree with this, and not just from a value standpoint of box and papers. I just like to have everything that came with the original sale of the watch. It is something I am willing to pay a premium for. And I know many others feel the same way.

You can try to invalidate the opinions of others, but what you are stating that papers "doesn't mean anything" is just factually incorrect from a value standpoint for purchase and selling.

I'm not willing to pay a premium for it nor are several people in this thread so I am not trying to invalidate opinions of others. It goes both ways. It seems today some people are more concerned about the box and papers than they are about the actual watch which is strange. It is like Rolex watches are now just looked at as $$$$$ and not to be worn and enjoyed and actually used.

[breitlings]

Ok, what about a hypothetical which would you purchase?

1) 16710 3185 full set excellent condition

2) 16710 3186 watch only excellent condition

[teo]

Originally Posted by breitlings

Ok, what about a hypothetical which would you purchase?

1) 16710 3185 full set excellent condition

2) 16710 3186 watch only excellent condition

I choose 1.

[CDNWatchNut]

Originally Posted by breitlings

Ok, what about a hypothetical which would you purchase?

1) 16710 3185 full set excellent condition

2) 16710 3186 watch only excellent condition

assuming as has been suggested that the B&P watch is priced at about $1000 more, I'd take item 2) for sure.

[The Libertine]

Originally Posted by breitlings

Ok, what about a hypothetical which would you purchase?

1) 16710 3185 full set excellent condition

2) 16710 3186 watch only excellent condition

If both are the same price (and offered from a trusted seller), option 2.

[ronricks]

Originally Posted by breitlings

Ok, what about a hypothetical which would you purchase?

1) 16710 3185 full set excellent condition

2) 16710 3186 watch only excellent condition

Option 2. I can get 'papers' when I send it in for service.

[The Libertine]

Originally Posted by ronricks

Option 2. I can get 'papers' when I send it in for service.

Not to mention current papers!

[Jcy90]

Originally Posted by Chadridv

this is just false.

Contact DavidSW, Thanh Do or any big seller, ask them how much they'd offer you for two watches from the same year in the same condition. One with a complete set and the other watch only. You're crazy if you think the offer will be the same.

Yes, It depends on the watch and vintage, but IMO for a Z serial GMT, you're looking at a $400-700 difference.

As long as you're taking that into account, you can choose whether or not the value is worth it to you, but it's naive to say it's worthless.

Additionally, no one here knows what the future holds. Dig back into the 8 year old threads regarding the 16710 3185 vs 3186 movements. The new movement was widely regarded as having no difference in the value, function or demand of the watch. It was often referred to as "just another example of internet hype", by many of the most senior members of the forum.

Regardless of what the opinions were, the 3186 today sells for a significant price increase than the 3185 sometimes even double for a complete set in the right condition. Call it "internet hype" all you want but these are facts.

Fast forward ten years from now, none of us know how much the value of the original paperwork/card on a z serial watch could potentially increase, but I know it won't be worthless.

Couldn't have said it better myself

[breitlings]

I dont think bobswatches.com gives any more for paper. At least when I sold my ym it was not part of the discussion. They also offered 20% more than davidsw.

[123Blueface]

Originally Posted by breitlings

I dont think bobswatches.com gives any more for paper. At least when I sold my ym it was not part of the discussion. They also offered 20% more than davidsw.

Say it ain't so.

[blue16613]

Originally Posted by 123Blueface

Say it ain't so.

Ha, Ha!

IBTL

[j.mo]

Back to touch on what mick was talking about earlier and I agreed with, look at this. $70 for fake box and papers. Looks exactly like what came with mine. Which is why I will be having mine authenticated when I return from vacation, just to be safe even if it was from a trusted seller.
http://www.intime01.co/watch-box/108...est-maker.html

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