Authenticating Grey Market purchase

[Strat25]

Originally Posted by HideMyWalletPlease

If you buy from someone like DavidSW then the watch will be real. There will be no need to take it to the AD. If you’re getting the watch well below market, there is generally a reason and it’s not worth the risk.

DavidSW just sent me a Tudor GMT unworn...its fantastic! (After no AD's when send me a new one via delivery LOL) I stalk their site all the time but first time I'd ever ordered. Smooth as butter.

[Laostuh]

Just comes down to you doing your own research about how to authenticate the specific watch you're after. There are plenty of videos on youtube etc.. Once you feel confident you know what to look for, I would then do research on the Grey Market seller you're looking to purchase from. Do they have an online presence? Do they have a store front? Any reviews? Read through all the reviews and make your own personal decision.

That's what I do. Just my 2cents.

[uniqueMR]

Buy from AD.
No time for hassle :)

[jrocco71]

Originally Posted by uniqueMR

Buy from AD.
No time for hassle :)

If you shop for watches enough, after handing hundreds you’ll develop almost a 6th sense to the point where you just sort of “feel” if a piece is “off” at all…


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[kizerman]

Originally Posted by IamJacky

I sort of understand why kizerman is so adamant about not buying grey, but in my perspective, as a business owner, I would never risk my entire reputation on selling a fake/flawed product just to make tiny amount of profit just as if a grey dealer would not dare selling watch with fake links.

I'm not against buying grey, I've bought grey before but when they were selling SS pieces below retail. I took a calculated chance and sent it to RSC to confirm.

I also never accused grey's of selling fakes. I'm certain the reputable guys would not sell a fake...knowingly. You've missed my point completely.

I'm just saying that the "buy the seller" theory is severely flawed. You are not buying the seller, you are buying the original buyer who is a stranger to you. Most grey dealers are not qualified to tell you if the watch has had any OEM parts removed before they received it.

Again, I know a guy who bought from a reputable grey dealer and months later found out that the OEM links were removed and replaced with fakes.

I'm certain there are plenty of people on this forum walking around with fake links or clasps and have no idea. There are probably some fake movements in some watches among forum members. The fake movements are very tough to tell apart from the real.

[jrocco71]

Originally Posted by kizerman

They don't need a counterfeit to get past them. They don't care.

If I buy a new Rolex from an AD, remove 4 links and replace them with 4 high end fakes, how would the grey dealer know? If they did, why would they care because the 3rd owner probably wouldn't know.

This is my point. Paying a premium that sometimes reaches 100%+ over retail for a watch you cannot fully vet is insane.

And don't give me the lame "buy the seller" line. Those guys don't care and really don't know what the original buyer did to the watch.

The only slogan that stands the test of time is buyer beware!

I’m curious….in your universe there seems to be these uninterrupted streams of limitless “quality” fake Rolex parts to be had, at effectively zero cost, available to anyone off the street, worldwide, at all times. I’m finding it very hard to believe that the business of faking Rolex watches and parts is a global market so large, buying a second hand piece is likely to result in the purchase of a fake. It’s certainly possible. And indeed, happens. But is it likely???


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[jrocco71]

Originally Posted by Rogerab

So what makes one think ADs are the pinnacle of trust. It is a fact that some are selling brand new watches out the back door to well bankrolled greys. The knowledgable buyer must trust their experience across the spectrum of outlets. Plus, discontinued models, e.g. 16710, 116610LV, are only to be had on the secondary market. In all cases, some buyer beware instincts are needed and should not be relaxed when dealing with an AD.

This ^


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[jrocco71]

Originally Posted by Mystro

There are no guarantees in life. That said, there’s no reason to be overly neurotic about this. If I buy a new/low mile RS GT3 from a exotic car broker, I am not cracking open the engine to make sure everything hasn’t been swapped out with aftermarket parts. Have some perspective and context.

THIS ^ definitely…


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[jrocco71]

Originally Posted by Marcjvr

Almost as much work as visiting an AD once a week to “build and maintain a relationship”

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[jrocco71]

Originally Posted by VacherObsessive

So you’re saying once a Rolex leaves the AD it’s effectively worthless

Finally. Someone said it. ROLEX represents the same thing to EVERYONE. We are ALL worried about fakes and being cheated but MOST fakes are easy to spot. It’s not true that a fake is SUPER DIFFICULT or impossible to discern from the authentic watch. After you handle the real McCoy enough YOU JUST KNOW. Lesson 1: Use an experienced individual’s knowledge and select your piece and seller carefully. It’s your money. Grey dealers DO CARE. Few people (if any) will care more than you do, though. Just keep that in the back of your mind at all times and you won’t get burned.


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[bob sims]

Originally Posted by HideMyWalletPlease

If you buy from someone like DavidSW then the watch will be real. There will be no need to take it to the AD. If you’re getting the watch well below market, there is generally a reason and it’s not worth the risk.

[Gab27]

IMHO, a thorough evaluation would not be a walk-in event.

If I was asking an AD to do this, I would probably want them to crack the case back to look at the movement and then pressure test it after putting it back together. I am not sure how many ADs have this capability (or are willing to accept the liability.) Consequently, I would probably wind up sending the watch to RSC (and if there is a single fake part on it, they will let you know).

[samuel019]

Well if someone thinks that some of the bigger Greys on this site don’t know the difference between fake this and real that or they don’t open the case back you’d be surprised.

Did a deal with a Grey here on TRF recently and when he received one of my trades he found a spot on the bezel to this day I still don’t see. Even when looking through a loupe before I sent it or any of his high resolution pics online as he now has it listed FS.

Of course anything is possible.

All I’m saying is if someone thinks some Grey sellers just look it over with the naked eye and call it a day I doubt it. Pretty sure a Grey wouldn’t want to risk there reputation with selling anything fake. Be it a link, movement, dial, case, and on and on.

Of course this isn’t a one size fits all statement but what you get when you buy certain sellers. IMO of course

[77T]

My best advice is to get a guaranteed return period for verification of a clean serial number plus authentication that it’s all genuine and correct.

Then send to RSC for a quote on a full service.

If it was not authentic you’ll get a report with your quote that lists what has to be replaced.

If it’s not clean serial number (i.e., stolen) you’ll get an email explaining the problem.

This of course is where dealing with only trusted dealers is key. He/She will stand behind the watch.


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[CactusTreeFiddy]

Originally Posted by 77T

My best advice is to get a guaranteed return period for verification of a clean serial number plus authentication that it’s all genuine and correct.

Then send to RSC for a quote on a full service.

If it was not authentic you’ll get a report with your quote that lists what has to be replaced.

If it’s not clean serial number (i.e., stolen) you’ll get an email explaining the problem.

This of course is where dealing with only trusted dealers is key. He/She will stand behind the watch.

This is sound advice, thanks

I hope I never have to find this out myself, but if you send a stolen watch to RSC, do they (eventually) send it back to you?

[Jayhawks]

I’d think most ADs would do it for ~$150 (providing paperwork for insurance purposes).


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[77T]

Originally Posted by CactusTreeFiddy

This is sound advice, thanks

I hope I never have to find this out myself, but if you send a stolen watch to RSC, do they (eventually) send it back to you?

That eventuality varies by the situation. Rolex UK confiscated my stolen Platona and the young man who had unwittingly bought it never saw it again.

He did buy from a trusted dealer in London and got a full refund.

Sometimes, like in cases where the delay in recovery stretches beyond a few years, the original victim doesn’t respond. After a reasonable time, the watch is returned to the person who submitted it.


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[teck21]

Originally Posted by 77T

My best advice is to get a guaranteed return period for verification of a clean serial number plus authentication that it’s all genuine and correct.

Then send to RSC for a quote on a full service.

If it was not authentic you’ll get a report with your quote that lists what has to be replaced.

If it’s not clean serial number (i.e., stolen) you’ll get an email explaining the problem.

This of course is where dealing with only trusted dealers is key. He/She will stand behind the watch.


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I know the dealers in my part of the world would absolutely never agree to something like this.

It’s like ratting on the people who supply them the watches to sell.

Rolex does query ADs if ‘too many’ of their practically new watches are showing up at RSC for servicing.

Without flippers they’d have no stock to sell, so they will protect them. And by extension the ADs that supply them.


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[77T]

Originally Posted by teck21

I know the dealers in my part of the world would absolutely never agree to something like this.

It’s like ratting on the people who supply them the watches to sell.

Rolex does query ADs if ‘too many’ of their practically new watches are showing up at RSC for servicing.

Without flippers they’d have no stock to sell, so they will protect them. And by extension the ADs that supply them.


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If the watch is BNIB with all proof that it was just purchased by a flipper, then one might accept the risk.

What do your dealers do, make the buyer promise not to go to RSC?

I was citing what a reasonable trusted dealer would do here and where the OP lives.


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[teck21]

Originally Posted by 77T

If the watch is BNIB with all proof that it was just purchased by a flipper, then one might accept the risk.

What do your dealers do, make the buyer promise not to go to RSC?

I was citing what a reasonable trusted dealer would do here and where the OP lives.


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They can’t stop buyers bringing the watches to RSC, but they would not allow returns.

It’s take it as it is, or not at all.


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[kizerman]

Originally Posted by jrocco71

I’m curious….in your universe there seems to be these uninterrupted streams of limitless “quality” fake Rolex parts to be had, at effectively zero cost, available to anyone off the street, worldwide, at all times. I’m finding it very hard to believe that the business of faking Rolex watches and parts is a global market so large, buying a second hand piece is likely to result in the purchase of a fake. It’s certainly possible. And indeed, happens. But is it likely???


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In my Universe? How incredibly naive this post is. My local watchmaker who has been Rolex trained, worked for Omega and Tag Heuer has recently shown me fake Rolex movements and they are almost impossible to tell from the real. Also fake PM links that can only be distinguished with a high-end digital scale. Clasps that would fool most AD's.

Anytime you have a market as hot and out of control as the Rolex market is, you will have people going to great lengths to capitalize on and it's happening.

The fake Rolex market was hot 30 years ago when you could walk into any AD any buy two of any model. What makes you think that in today's climate that parts stripping would not be a lucrative business?

You clearly bought grey and are trying to convince yourself your watch is 100% OEM but now you are laying in bed wondering if you have a Franken Rolex or not...

[Bizcut1]

Originally Posted by kizerman

In my Universe? How incredibly naive this post is. My local watchmaker who has been Rolex trained, worked for Omega and Tag Heuer has recently shown me fake Rolex movements and they are almost impossible to tell from the real. Also fake PM links that can only be distinguished with a high-end digital scale. Clasps that would fool most AD's.

Anytime you have a market as hot and out of control as the Rolex market is, you will have people going to great lengths to capitalize on and it's happening.

The fake Rolex market was hot 30 years ago when you could walk into any AD any buy two of any model. What makes you think that in today's climate that parts stripping would not be a lucrative business?

You clearly bought grey and are trying to convince yourself your watch is 100% OEM but now you are laying in bed wondering if you have a Franken Rolex or not...

My friend, if there is anyone here who is incredibly naive he is
looking at you in the mirror. You haven’t a clue about what you
speak. You have “a friend” who was sold counterfeit links. Sure you do. You know a watchmaker who “showed” you fake Rolex movements. Sure, sure.

Pics or it didn’t happen, pal. And it didn’t.

You are the perfect example of the Dunning Kruger effect. Fits you like a hand in a glove.

[scarlet knight]

A relative showed me what he thought was a Rolex. I never saw a dial in that color. I think he bought a Fauxlex.

[kizerman]

Originally Posted by Bizcut1

My friend, if there is anyone here who is incredibly naive he is
looking at you in the mirror. You haven’t a clue about what you
speak. You have “a friend” who was sold counterfeit links. Sure you do. You know a watchmaker who “showed” you fake Rolex movements. Sure, sure.

Pics or it didn’t happen, pal. And it didn’t.

You are the perfect example of the Dunning Kruger effect. Fits you like a hand in a glove.

Pics or it didn't happen defense? Yeah, that's the real world.

Why don't you just admit you paid 2X retail for a grey piece and now are concerned that your links and clasp are aftermarket.

[kizerman]

Originally Posted by Bizcut1

My friend, if there is anyone here who is incredibly naive he is
looking at you in the mirror. You haven’t a clue about what you
speak. You have “a friend” who was sold counterfeit links. Sure you do. You know a watchmaker who “showed” you fake Rolex movements. Sure, sure.

Pics or it didn’t happen, pal. And it didn’t.

You are the perfect example of the Dunning Kruger effect. Fits you like a hand in a glove.

A quick review of your last 20 posts tell me all I need to know about you. Lol.

[jrocco71]

Originally Posted by kizerman

In my Universe? How incredibly naive this post is. My local watchmaker who has been Rolex trained, worked for Omega and Tag Heuer has recently shown me fake Rolex movements and they are almost impossible to tell from the real. Also fake PM links that can only be distinguished with a high-end digital scale. Clasps that would fool most AD's.

Anytime you have a market as hot and out of control as the Rolex market is, you will have people going to great lengths to capitalize on and it's happening.

The fake Rolex market was hot 30 years ago when you could walk into any AD any buy two of any model. What makes you think that in today's climate that parts stripping would not be a lucrative business?

You clearly bought grey and are trying to convince yourself your watch is 100% OEM but now you are laying in bed wondering if you have a Franken Rolex or not...

Ha! Ha! Ha! So you say!


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[Gab27]

Originally Posted by kizerman

My local watchmaker who has been Rolex trained, worked for Omega and Tag Heuer has recently shown me fake Rolex movements and they are almost impossible to tell from the real.

Did this fake movement have a free-sprung balance wheel? I'm far from an expert, but all of the images of fake movements I've seen have not (tho some try to hide the regulator) and it is very-to-blatantly obvious that they are fake (for that matter, videos showing positional accuracy tests also seem to show these movements to fall flat). I was under the impression that movements that use a free-sprung balance wheel are extremely hard to manufacture properly and required someone with an immense amount of skill to properly regulate?

[asiparks]

Originally Posted by jrocco71

We are ALL worried about fakes and being cheated but MOST fakes are easy to spot. It’s not true that a fake is SUPER DIFFICULT or impossible to discern from the authentic watch. After you handle the real McCoy enough YOU JUST KNOW.
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People that sell great fakes, love people who believe this.

There are a lot of crappy Canal Street fakes out there, and there are ones that are not and not just Rolex.

Obviously not all resellers are equal, if you buy from Watchbox, DavidSW, Takuya or similar, you'll likely be ok I've bought from them because it's a reaonable gamble, the odds are stacked in my favor.

That said, if you do buy a used watch and it turns out to be fake upon authentication, it's a bit like bolting the stable door after your expensive horse has legged it, you'd have to prove it came to you that way and you weren't the one trying to scam the grey.....

[Brian Page]

Originally Posted by kizerman

So wrong. Sorry but this makes me crazy. These "trusted " sellers are just guys who communicate well and ship on time. They do not and cannot vet pieces. Nor do they care.

Again, a good friend of mine bought from one of the most "trusted" sellers here only to find that 3 of the links on a a "new" piece had been switched out with fake links. This happens all the time but most never know.

Not saying the grey dealer was aware but that is the point. You never really know when the chain of custody is lengthened to 3 or more people.

Your simply wrong. I have relationships that are other than AD's that I trust way more than AD"S

[asiparks]

Originally Posted by Gab27

Did this fake movement have a free-sprung balance wheel? I'm far from an expert, but all of the images of fake movements I've seen have not (tho some try to hide the regulator) and it is very-to-blatantly obvious that they are fake (for that matter, videos showing positional accuracy tests also seem to show these movements to fall flat). I was under the impression that movements that use a free-sprung balance wheel are extremely hard to manufacture properly and required someone with an immense amount of skill to properly regulate?

You're talking a level of detail beyond most AD staff and non Rolex specialist watch smiths. Most will see something non Eta, red reversing wheels, a convincing rotor and the ref number for the movement and call it good. That's if you convince them to take the back off. Fake movements can be just as consistent and I doubt many will faff about testing in 5 positions.