Laurent Ferrier Sport Auto

[ILoveFerrari]

Originally Posted by DoraTheExplorerII

Definitely just a listing to set up market for speculation

140K, lol!

This watch is no where what one should expect for 50K. With 5711 gone, there are indeed many indys wanna cash in on the wave. LF is a good brand, but not this watch at this price level. We know what a 50k watch is.

[MostlyCloudy]

very unique take, BUT PRICE IS WOW

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by ilovegt

140K, lol!

This watch is no where what one should expect for 50K. With 5711 gone, there are indeed many indys wanna cash in on the wave. LF is a good brand, but not this watch at this price level. We know what a 50k watch is.

I'm not sure I'm following you here...

First, all LF's watches (except for the "origin" line, which is $30k) are $50k and up. They can't be "cashing in" on the supposed "wave" when they have priced the sport model the same as every other model.

Second, if you know what a "$50k watch is [worth]," then your point must be that this one is underpriced given that it is allegedly sold out through 2024-25. If you are trying to say its overpriced, the laws of economics hereby find you in contempt, good sir!

As to your point about the 5711 leaving vacuum. I somewhat agree and somewhat disagree. On the one hand I agree that there are certainly more people who want to buy the 5711 than 5711s available, so there is a vacuum there. On the other hand, I don't totally agree with your premise that only dejected 5711 hunters are buying this watch as "the next best thing" as a result of that vacuum. I think this watch should stand on its own merit next to the 5711 the same as the 15202/300/400/500 Royal Oaks or any other lux integrated bracelet sports watches. Plus how can you compare this to a 5711 or any other watch, let alone comment on its value, when you've never held it or seen it other than in pictures?

Interesting opinion perhaps, it just seems more like you are bemoaning the price of watches rather than offering any real thought about it.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

I'm not sure I'm following you here...

First, all LF's watches (except for the "origin" line, which is $30k) are $50k and up. They can't be "cashing in" on the supposed "wave" when they have priced the sport model the same as every other model.

Second, if you know what a "$50k watch is [worth]," then your point must be that this one is underpriced given that it is allegedly sold out through 2024-25. If you are trying to say its overpriced, the laws of economics hereby find you in contempt, good sir!

As to your point about the 5711 leaving vacuum. I somewhat agree and somewhat disagree. On the one hand I agree that there are certainly more people who want to buy the 5711 than 5711s available, so there is a vacuum there. On the other hand, I don't totally agree with your premise that only dejected 5711 hunters are buying this watch as "the next best thing" as a result of that vacuum. I think this watch should stand on its own merit next to the 5711 the same as the 15202/300/400/500 Royal Oaks or any other lux integrated bracelet sports watches. Plus how can you compare this to a 5711 or any other watch, let alone comment on its value, when you've never held it or seen it other than in pictures?

Interesting opinion perhaps, it just seems more like you are bemoaning the price of watches rather than offering any real thought about it.

I'm a successful 5711 hunter and my LF arrives next year. Amazing looking watch and from my knowledge of LF, the finishing is up with the very best independents and totally beyond that of PP/AP/VC sports pieces. The fact that it isn't universally appealing to my mind means that the styling has been successful, not simply another indistinguishable sports piece amongst many.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by Bloomberg

Sport auto price = Odysseus price + czapek Antarctique price
My choice was easily taken.

I mean... the LF right?

This comparison reminds me of what the late-great Jerry Buss said to Kobe Bryant when Kobe was trying to convince Dr. Buss to trade him by arguing how many "good" players the Lakers could get in exchange. Buss made a great analogy:

He said, "Kobe, if I had a diamond of great value, four or five carats, would I give up that diamond for four diamonds of one carat? No."

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by Russell996

I'm a successful 5711 hunter and my LF arrives next year. Amazing looking watch and from my knowledge of LF, the finishing is up with the very best independents and totally beyond that of PP/AP/VC sports pieces. The fact that it isn't universally appealing to my mind means that the styling has been successful, not simply another indistinguishable sports piece amongst many.

Very excited for you! Have they given you any timing on when they think it will be delivered?

And when it does, pics would be greatly appreciated by us "fan boys"

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

Very excited for you! Have they given you any timing on when they think it will be delivered?

And when it does, pics would be greatly appreciated by us "fan boys"

Q2 2023

[raclaims]

Someone asked for pix of my tourbillon bracelet. Here you go






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[uniqueMR]

Beautiful!!!

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by raclaims

Someone asked for pix of my tourbillon bracelet. Here you go

WoW! Thank you!

Looks like it tapers in similar proportion to the Sport. Very good.

[Amateur]

Originally Posted by athens7

In 2017, DeBethune was rescued by a group of investors. Journe has (reportedly) sold off the majority of his company in order to keep going. Groebel Forsey has had to restructure in order to survive. The forerunners of this group fared even more poorly. Genta, Mueller, Dubuis, and Roth all had to sell their companies. At this moment, most all independent makers are enjoying a favorable market, but it has not always been thus.

LF will sell 100 Sport Autos this year. That extra 10,000 CHF translates to 1,000,000 CHF, huge money for a small company.

Unfortunately that's how niche watches should be. Only super wealthy people and collectors were purchasing these watches after having collected most of the mainstream models and they were not looking for wealth vehicles or investment opportunities, and that was contributing to getting the independents going. No one wants to see these independents become Rolex, AP or PP - or do we now???
Would an average Joe working 9-5 purchase an MB&F as his first, second, hell, fifth watch? What would be the point if not lucrative?

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by uniqueMR

On chrono24 already....
What the!

Link: https://www.chrono24.com/laurentferr...id22571691.htm

Was listed for $140k... It's not there now. Sold?

[uniqueMR]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

Was listed for $140k... It's not there now. Sold?

Maybe removed :)

[athens7]

Originally Posted by raclaims

Someone asked for pix of my tourbillon bracelet. Here you go






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It's hard to tell for certain from your pictures, but I'm guessing that the case shape in profile is the same as the Sport Auto. If so, the lugs seem to extend from the mid case, rather than dropping and having the spring bars at the same level as the bottom of the case back or below. How does your Grand Sport feel on the wrist? Does this lug arrangement make the watch feel tippy or top heavy?

[ILoveFerrari]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

I'm not sure I'm following you here...

First, all LF's watches (except for the "origin" line, which is $30k) are $50k and up. They can't be "cashing in" on the supposed "wave" when they have priced the sport model the same as every other model.

Second, if you know what a "$50k watch is [worth]," then your point must be that this one is underpriced given that it is allegedly sold out through 2024-25. If you are trying to say its overpriced, the laws of economics hereby find you in contempt, good sir!

As to your point about the 5711 leaving vacuum. I somewhat agree and somewhat disagree. On the one hand I agree that there are certainly more people who want to buy the 5711 than 5711s available, so there is a vacuum there. On the other hand, I don't totally agree with your premise that only dejected 5711 hunters are buying this watch as "the next best thing" as a result of that vacuum. I think this watch should stand on its own merit next to the 5711 the same as the 15202/300/400/500 Royal Oaks or any other lux integrated bracelet sports watches. Plus how can you compare this to a 5711 or any other watch, let alone comment on its value, when you've never held it or seen it other than in pictures?

Interesting opinion perhaps, it just seems more like you are bemoaning the price of watches rather than offering any real thought about it.

Just realized that your post was in reply to mine. I did not mention anything about 5711 vaccum, did I? In Fchat, there is a common wisdom - There is no richest, there is only richer, so people in Fchat usually don't write anything like you did here- "if you know what a 50k watches is worth." This is not insulting per se but is rather reflective of your tactics in making your point.

I don't know how this forum is since I am new here. I think you are making quite a few assumptions about me as a watch collector. We don't have to go into size measuring contest. I just uploaded a picture of one of my 50k range watches that I ordered and literally just acquired from the boutique yesterday.

Going back to this particular LF watch, it is indeed overpriced, in my opinion, for similar reasons mentioned in one of the well articulated posts above. But that is less important, the key is to recognize a more mature way to carry out any argument without ad hominem. It's a practice, I know.20220216_164425.jpg

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[ILoveFerrari]

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

Alright, i wasn’t going to say anything because I love this brand….but I don’t understand the pricing at all and it’s inexcusable to me.

You replace the double direct impulse escapement with a Swiss lever because it is more robust…fine I get it. The half bridge no longer has interior angles or black polish…okay fine. The lower plate and jeweled staff have been redesigned to have less curvature, making the anglage easier to execute….okay fine. Remove the cote de Geneve….okay.

I’m fine with all of these changes…but they all result in a much easier and cheaper movement to finish. A movement that no longer has a double direct impulse escapement. And….it’s more money? A bracelet and platinum micro rotor do not outweigh those cost cutting moves the movement took.

I am in complete agreement. This is the post I was referring to.

[mongrelnomoad]

Originally Posted by raclaims

Someone asked for pix of my tourbillon bracelet. Here you go






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That’s a lovely watch. All the things that don’t seem to work in static photos really come together in real life.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by ilovegt

Just realized that your post was in reply to mine. I did not mention anything about 5711 vaccum, did I? In Fchat, there is a common wisdom - There is no richest, there is only richer, so people in Fchat usually don't write anything like you did here- "if you know what a 50k watches is worth." This is not insulting per se but is rather reflective of your tactics in making your point.

I don't know how this forum is since I am new here. I think you are making quite a few assumptions about me as a watch collector. We don't have to go into size measuring contest. I just uploaded a picture of one of my 50k range watches that I ordered and literally just acquired from the boutique yesterday.

Going back to this particular LF watch, it is indeed overpriced, in my opinion, for similar reasons mentioned in one of the well articulated posts above. But that is less important, the key is to recognize a more mature way to carry out any argument without ad hominem. It's a practice, I know.Attachment 1274747

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Thou doth protest too much. Pretty sure you are posting that photo in this thread as a willy-wave!

From my perspective the piece isn’t overpriced but then I’ve ordered one.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by ilovegt

Just realized that your post was in reply to mine. I did not mention anything about 5711 vaccum, did I? In Fchat, there is a common wisdom - There is no richest, there is only richer, so people in Fchat usually don't write anything like you did here- "if you know what a 50k watches is worth." This is not insulting per se but is rather reflective of your tactics in making your point.

I don't know how this forum is since I am new here. I think you are making quite a few assumptions about me as a watch collector. We don't have to go into size measuring contest. I just uploaded a picture of one of my 50k range watches that I ordered and literally just acquired from the boutique yesterday.

Going back to this particular LF watch, it is indeed overpriced, in my opinion, for similar reasons mentioned in one of the well articulated posts above. But that is less important, the key is to recognize a more mature way to carry out any argument without ad hominem. It's a practice, I know.

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I wasn't attacking you bro. Cool car, cool watch, cool VC or engineering job in the Valley, all that. I'm happy and honored to have the conversation with you here on this forum. Re-read my post, I only question your logic and faulty conclusion. ;)

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

Alright, i wasn’t going to say anything because I love this brand….but I don’t understand the pricing at all and it’s inexcusable to me.

You replace the double direct impulse escapement with a Swiss lever because it is more robust…fine I get it. The half bridge no longer has interior angles or black polish…okay fine. The lower plate and jeweled staff have been redesigned to have less curvature, making the anglage easier to execute….okay fine. Remove the cote de Geneve….okay.

I’m fine with all of these changes…but they all result in a much easier and cheaper movement to finish. A movement that no longer has a double direct impulse escapement. And….it’s more money? A bracelet and platinum micro rotor do not outweigh those cost cutting moves the movement took.

This dude seems to disagree with you about the complexity of the finishing... but it sounds like you know a hell of a lot more about this that I do. So why are his points not valid vis-a-vis other LF movements?

"Each LF 270.01 calibre alone requires more than 139 manual finishing operations. For instance, the bridge of the micro-rotor movement is meticulously decorated by hand: the angles are softened then finished with gentian wood or diamantine, while the surface is mirror-polished. In addition, the movement features several internal angles, multiple zinc-polished surfaces and numerous satin-finishing and circular-graining, all executed by hand in the LAURENT FERRIER workshops."

https://deployant.com/new-laurent-ferrier-sport-auto/

[ILoveFerrari]

Originally Posted by Russell996

Thou doth protest too much. Pretty sure you are posting that photo in this thread as a willy-wave!



From my perspective the piece isn’t overpriced but then I’ve ordered one.

lol. Haven't read that phrase since high school drama class! Nice. I began to get this site now. I just didn't know showing a similar priced watch in the thread where people are discussing purchasing a 50k USD watch is considered a willy wave at all. Got it. I would only surmise that my watch is typical in this thread, and I was only showing it to answer the question of if I know what a 50k watch is like. But thanks for the compliments. Anyhoo, let's not derail from the thread and let's talk about this overpriced LF. lol!

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[ILoveFerrari]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

I wasn't attacking you bro. Cool car, cool watch, cool VC or engineering job in the Valley, all that. I'm happy and honored to have the conversation with you here on this forum. Re-read my post, I only question your logic and faulty conclusion. ;)

My conclusion of this watch's price range actually is rather logical overall, at least in my mind. Allow me to make a simple argument here without getting into too technical aspect of the movement. Let's just talk about the cost and aesthetic of a watch, as that is likely the first thing customers notice.

The removal of the Côtes de Genève in this particular LF watch is a very important hint on one thing, increasing the profit by reducing cost and increasing sale price. Nothing wrong with increasing the sale price with current inflation and lack of supply, but the argument here is not about the the relationship between quality of a watch and its price in an absolute sense, but actually a relative one. The cost of all these high end mechanical watch largely stem from the cost of training a watchmaker to handle different level of movement. For example, a senior watchmaker that can handle a torbillon or a resonance movement costs exceedinly more than ones that handle the entry level watch.

Extending from the first argument, the time of hand finish directly affect the cost. To the customers eye, the quality of finish implies the time it took, or rather someone again who is highly trained and can finish it in more efficient manner, which then again ties back to the first point - the more trained the watchmaker touches the watch, the more expensive the watch should be. Overall, in the games of mechanical watch, we are indeed paying for human cost through the crystallization of two very essence - art and mechanical engineering, two things that help define human intelligence and creativity.

I digress. Going back to this watch, removal of Côtes de Genève is a very important teller tale sign of the mindset of cost cutting, because actually the Geneva strip is not that expensive to do, but have a large impact visually.

Let me stop here before we use some other 50k watch movement finish to illustrate why this watch finish is already not at a 50k USD watch level. Of course the determination of a watch price is a combination of many factors, and we have not touched exclusiveness and more importantly the robustness and innovation of the very movement itself.


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[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by ilovegt

My conclusion of this watch's price range actually is rather logical overall...

The removal of the Côtes de Genève in this particular LF watch is a very important hint on one thing, increasing the profit by reducing cost and increasing sale price.... removal of Côtes de Genève is a very important teller tale sign of the mindset of cost cutting, because actually the Geneva strip is not that expensive to do, but have a large impact visually.

Right, your argument's logic is still off. LF can't be "cost cutting" when they decided to not include something that is not that expensive to include in the first place. You are striking out there.

This sounds more like: you think a cote de geneve looks expensive and great. Period end.

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

Right, your argument's logic is still off. LF can't be "cost cutting" when they decided to not include something that is not that expensive to include in the first place. You are striking out there.

This sounds more like: you think a cote de geneve looks expensive and great. Period end.

It's fairly obvious the finishing is not of the same level as the dress watches. Whether you believe that to be intentional cost cutting or not is irrelevant (for the record I do believe it to be intentional). The Swiss level they went with is much easier to produce than the dual direct impulse in the dress watches. Additionally, the bracelet was already developed for the tourbillon sports watch, so the r&d shouldn't be prohibitive.

All the above add up to the question, why is it $50k? This is clearly a case of them cashing in. It's obvious.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

It's fairly obvious the finishing is not of the same level as the dress watches. Whether you believe that to be intentional cost cutting or not is irrelevant (for the record I do believe it to be intentional). The Swiss level they went with is much easier to produce than the dual direct impulse in the dress watches. Additionally, the bracelet was already developed for the tourbillon sports watch, so the r&d shouldn't be prohibitive.

All the above add up to the question, why is it $50k? This is clearly a case of them cashing in. It's obvious.

It’s not the same level Because they didn’t put cote de Genève on the plate? That’s silly. Read the literature about the hand finishing mirror polishing and non visible hand finishing in the movement as well as the hand finish on the rotor et al. The point is, whether you like the finish or not the facts about cost cutting are not on your side. I’ve cited references, I welcome you to do the same.

Bracelet is not the same. The one from the tourb doesn’t fit the sport. So that is inaccurate.

The brand new in-house movement didn’t take R&D? I guess you overlooked those costs as well?

Swiss escapement being less expensive to produce than a natural escapement. Perhaps… I don’t know. By how much? And how do you know how much it costs LF to produce it given that this movement is brand new? References welcomed.

Anyway, I think your opinion is great. I welcome it. It’s just that trying to pawn off your opinion as knowledge or fact when it’s not, is off putting. I’m happy if you want to prove me wrong.


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[yoast]

I had a look yesterday at both the LF AD's here in HK and although they had a combined number of around 6 watches in stock, I was quite disappointed with the steel case finishing and some of the dial colors.
Maybe my expectations were too high but I really thought they could do better with the dials.
I found the dial of my Kurono Toki sunburst honestly better looking than LF champagne / silvery dial which to me seemed a little mallwatch-y if that makes sense.
I wanted to see the Ice blue dial as that is the only one I am really interested in but it was nowhere to be found and they only had some basic models with dials as I described above. I left a bit disappointed with the brand.

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

It’s not the same level Because they didn’t put cote de Genève on the plate? That’s silly. Read the literature about the hand finishing mirror polishing and non visible hand finishing in the movement as well as the hand finish on the rotor et al. The point is, whether you like the finish or not the facts about cost cutting are not on your side. I’ve cited references, I welcome you to do the same.

Bracelet is not the same. The one from the tourb doesn’t fit the sport. So that is inaccurate.

The brand new in-house movement didn’t take R&D? I guess you overlooked those costs as well?

Swiss escapement being less expensive to produce than a natural escapement. Perhaps… I don’t know. By how much? And how do you know how much it costs LF to produce it given that this movement is brand new? References welcomed.

Anyway, I think your opinion is great. I welcome it. It’s just that trying to pawn off your opinion as knowledge or fact when it’s not, is off putting. I’m happy if you want to prove me wrong.


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1) It's not a matter of finishing preference. The finishing is not to the same standard. This is fact. You can debate cote de geneve versus vertical brushing all you want (you are still wrong here). That aside, there is significantly less black polish, one of the most cost prohibitive finishing techniques. The bridges were literally redesigned unnecessarily to have less pronounced angles, making the anglage much easier to execute. These are facts. The movement is cheaper to finish.

2). It's the same bracelet. Resizing it to fit a 40mm case is not the same as developing a new bracelet. Stop it.

3) I don't know how much cheaper the Swiss lever was for them, obviously only they know. The fact is, it's cheaper. They had a good reason for making this switch. But...it's cheaper nonetheless. Also, only changing the escapement does not make this a new movement. Stop the hyperbole.

[Pdg]

Originally Posted by ilovegt

lol. Haven't read that phrase since high school drama class! Nice. I began to get this site now. I just didn't know showing a similar priced watch in the thread where people are discussing purchasing a 50k USD watch is considered a willy wave at all. Got it. I would only surmise that my watch is typical in this thread, and I was only showing it to answer the question of if I know what a 50k watch is like. But thanks for the compliments. Anyhoo, let's not derail from the thread and let's talk about this overpriced LF. lol!

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I have no dog in this fight and I realize what you are doing is what many on this site and others do, but showing an ALS dress watch when discussing the merits of an LF sports watch and then doing it with the Ferrari steering wheel in the background strikes me as odd. I know many people do it (show a car and watch in the same picture) and I don’t get it; it definitely comes off as bragging/size measuring in my book. All you have to say is you know what a $50k watch is, but you are getting involved in a “size measuring” even if you claim not to be by bringing all of that in.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

1) It's not a matter of finishing preference. The finishing is not to the same standard. This is fact. You can debate cote de geneve versus vertical brushing all you want (you are still wrong here). That aside, there is significantly less black polish, one of the most cost prohibitive finishing techniques. The bridges were literally redesigned unnecessarily to have less pronounced angles, making the anglage much easier to execute. These are facts. The movement is cheaper to finish.

2). It's the same bracelet. Resizing it to fit a 40mm case is not the same as developing a new bracelet. Stop it.

3) I don't know how much cheaper the Swiss lever was for them, obviously only they know. The fact is, it's cheaper. They had a good reason for making this switch. But...it's cheaper nonetheless. Also, only changing the escapement does not make this a new movement. Stop the hyperbole.

All good my friend. I wish you well and understand your position, misguided as it is ;). Agree to disagree on this one. Though I remain open to you educating me if you ever so choose to do so. In the meantime, Speedmaster is a great handle… and a great watch - perhaps we can agree on that.


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[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

All good my friend. I wish you well and understand your position, misguided as it is ;). Agree to disagree on this one. Though I remain open to you educating me if you ever so choose to do so. In the meantime, Speedmaster is a great handle… and a great watch - perhaps we can agree on that.


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agree to disagree.

For what it's worth, I've loved the Laurent Ferrier brand for years now and have one on order, coming next month. I'm glad this sports watch was a hit and hopefully it sets up the brand for long term success.