Thin case 1665 DRSD

[MrBlobby]

Are you saying the dealer deliberately tried to sell something he knew wasn’t right? If so have I missed something because I just don’t see it like that?

[swaini3]

Originally Posted by MrBlobby

Are you saying the dealer deliberately tried to sell something he knew wasn’t right? If so have I missed something because I just don’t see it like that?

With or without perezcope's post, a buyer somewhere could have been duped and when will he find out? years later?.... i ask you this, what are the chances that these trusted dealers would buy this watch if I offered it to him? Will he make mistakes then?
Pls, there's too much of this BS going on around the world with these dealers... It's annoying and pathetic. I wouldn't be surprised if some actually put together these pieces to make a watch and then sell it.
Sorry, but I won't be falling for this (People make mistakes) story.

[Dan S]

Honest mistake or fraud, it really doesn't matter for the buyer, IMO. Buyers need to be more careful trusting people who pose as experts. If I recall correctly from Omegaforums, this seller really doesn't have the type of long experience that leads to deep knowledge. 4 or 5 years ago, he was a newbie, asking naive questions (and his demeanor was always ... interesting). Just because someone has a nice website and appears to have expensive inventory (possibly on consignment) doesn't mean that you can trust their judgement about the authenticity of a 6-figure watch.

So many sketchy dealers have been setting up shop on the internet as vintage watch prices have soared. Every week there's another thread about one of them, a couple of weeks ago there was a similar thread about a teenager who owns one of the well-known dealer websites. No thanks, if I want to pay top dollar, I'll buy from someone who has deep knowledge coming from many years of experience. And even then, I'll do my own due diligence by asking people without a financial stake in the sale.

[MrBlobby]

I agree with you Dan. Buyer beware.

Now let’s say you develop a new interest in vintage rolex. You then go on to buy watches and try and sell them for more money. Are we saying that if you do that without expert knowledge then you are evil or a fraud. I don’t think so.

I feel sorry for the dealer here because he is probably out of pocket and now wondering what to do. Even worse he is now informed by perezscope’s post. This is sad all round.

[HERITAGE82]

It is a cut throat industry and as values rise so does the judgment when errors occur. The seller is trying to save face as many do once an error has been brought to light. However, as this seller and many other are learning when it comes to watches in this price bracket there is zero room for mistakes.

Glad I am no longer in the vintage market since having bought, what is to me, a unique vintage watch after owning & selling many variations of vintage Rolex.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by MrBlobby

I agree with you Dan. Buyer beware.

Now let’s say you develop a new interest in vintage rolex. You then go on to buy watches and try and sell them for more money. Are we saying that if you do that without expert knowledge then you are evil or a fraud. I don’t think so.

I feel sorry for the dealer here because he is probably out of pocket and now wondering what to do. Even worse he is now informed by perezscope’s post. This is sad all round.

Go back and read his post, it was a consignment piece. He has lost nothing. And please don't put words in my mouth, I didn't say he was evil or a fraud. But I would not buy an expensive watch from him.

[MrBlobby]

Then I’m pleased it is on consignment.

You didn’t say it was fraud and I’m not accusing you of doing so. I think your post is fair.

Some in this thread have called it fraud. I find that odd.

[MrBlobby]

Duplicate post

[1675-David]

Originally Posted by pereztroika

Curiouser and curiouser! I'm not all together enamored with the case used by Jose to illustrate how a correct set of serial numbers should look like with what appears to be cracks and pitting from a poorly executed case renovation. Cracking is visible where material has been added to the side of the lugs and the bottom of the left hand lug. And pitting on the surface of the lug. Of course it could be scratching that just looks like solidification cracking.

[MrChamfers]

Originally Posted by MrBlobby

Then I’m pleased it is on consignment.

You didn’t say it was fraud and I’m not accusing you of doing so. I think your post is fair.

Some in this thread have called it fraud. I find that odd.

Nobody said it was fraud, there are posts that include that word though.

More interesting to me is why is the watch still listed for sale on the seller's instagram? 🤔

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by MrChamfers

More interesting to me is why is the watch still listed for sale on the seller's instagram?

After my post (#44) the seller removed it from Instagram.

[MrBlobby]

Someone said it was a fraud if the dealer hadn’t posted on here. I don’t agree with that. It would be a fraud if the dealer was selling the watch with knowledge of the watch not being correct.

There are also plenty of watches on old Instagram posts that are showing watches for sale that aren’t currently for sale. Did the dealer put the watch on Instagram for sale after his post here? Or might it be that he wasn’t on the ball enough to tidy his Instagram post up until he spotted it being mentioned here?

[alwayshere]

Originally Posted by MrBlobby

Then I’m pleased it is on consignment.

You didn’t say it was fraud and I’m not accusing you of doing so. I think your post is fair.

Some in this thread have called it fraud. I find that odd.

Consignment is often how dealers work. They don't take the risk so its actually worse. If it doesn't sell, no skin off their back.

It may sound harsh that we are criticising the said dealer here but its warranted. It should never have happen in the first place.

IMO, I would much prefer a dealer purchase the watch in the first place (which means they apply the same rigour of due diligence that an astute buyer would do) and then try to sell it. That will often raise their game.

[MrBlobby]

This thread is insane! Someone who sells watches offered a watch for sale which someone liked. He asked for second opinions and then someone who has a big database of past watch sales was able to point out some faults. The dealer then apologises. In reality it would appear that the dealer doesn’t have absolutely top notch knowledge. And now people are saying things along the lines that the dealer may have been defrauding people or a dealer needs to be fully invested in an item before they should sell it.

Hasn’t it always been buyer beware? Fortunately in this case the buyer was wary and ended up getting some really valuable advice.

[swaini3]

Watches on consignment do get checked as its the dealer's reputation on the line. Also, otherwise they could not offer their 1 yr warranty or conditions etc that are basically the same as for the watches they own.

[NickD1975]

The dealer should have top notch knowledge. If I’m paying a premium for a watch then that should include their expertise, if they don’t have that then what are they adding?

Do I think they were intending to defraud? No.

[MrBlobby]

It’s a good idea to choose a dealer with top notch knowledge but this isn’t a regulated market.

[Haywood_Milton]

Retail in most markets is “regulated” by consumer protection laws.

In the UK, for example, it is a trade seller’s responsibility to know what he is selling and to describe it correctly. Failure on either count cannot be blamed on others and it is similar in most markets.

[MrBlobby]

That’s certainly true but there are markets that are considered regulated where sellers need to be approved or qualified and there is an additional official body monitoring and dealing with complaints.

Presumably if this was sold in the uk and the buyer later found an issue but the seller was saying that it was sold as seen then the only remedy for the buyer would be through the courts?

Edit:
That’s a really interesting point about consumer laws but consider this in the art world https://www.phb.co.uk/article/buying...o-be-aware-of/

[MrChamfers]

Originally Posted by saxo3

After my post (#44) the seller removed it from Instagram.

So this is a different DRSD currently listed for sale?

[pereztroika]

Let's cut the dealer some slack fellas. It was only thanks to his exemplary presentation of the watch, namely pictures of all important details, that we were able to discern that something was wrong. If they knowingly wanted to defraud someone, I doubt they would have published all those damning pictures. I for one believe it could very well be an honest mistake.

Keep in mind, dial, hands, insert and movement are real. Easy to get fooled, especially if the watch was given in commission by a trusted contact. Auction houses make this mistake quite often. If watches are consigned by VIP dealers/collectors, which is often the case, there is little to no scrutiny.


Cheers
Jose

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by pereztroika

Let's cut the dealer some slack fellas. It was only thanks to his exemplary presentation of the watch, namely pictures of all important details, that we were able to discern that something was wrong. If they knowingly wanted to defraud someone, I doubt they would have published all those damning pictures. I for one believe it could very well be an honest mistake.

Keep in mind, dial, hands, insert and movement are real. Easy to get fooled, especially if the watch was given in commission by a trusted contact. Auction houses make this mistake quite often. If watches are consigned by VIP dealers/collectors, which is often the case, there is little to no scrutiny.


Cheers
Jose

Well-said.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by MrChamfers

So this is a different DRSD currently listed for sale?

We are both right. The seller only deleted a second (older) advertisement, which I quoted.
The newest one (you saw), posted on 17 February 2023, is still there: a video showing 3 watches including the 1665 thin case Mk2 for 110'000 €.

[Arnozerosix]

Originally Posted by Dan S

For some reason, every time there is a thread exposing questionable behavior by a dealer or auction house, some members make posts like these that seem to be excusing the behavior by noting that similar things have happened previously, or that this behavior is common. Honestly, I don't get it. This sounds like a kindergarten excuse.

it Is no excuse Dan , it is just a common practice....
my post was meant to say, why being so surprised about such practice rather than finding excuses ...

[4rnold]

Originally Posted by pereztroika

Let's cut the dealer some slack fellas. It was only thanks to his exemplary presentation of the watch, namely pictures of all important details, that we were able to discern that something was wrong. If they knowingly wanted to defraud someone, I doubt they would have published all those damning pictures. I for one believe it could very well be an honest mistake.

Keep in mind, dial, hands, insert and movement are real. Easy to get fooled, especially if the watch was given in commission by a trusted contact. Auction houses make this mistake quite often. If watches are consigned by VIP dealers/collectors, which is often the case, there is little to no scrutiny.


Cheers
Jose

Jose, you really are a great guy, first you spread you knowledge for free, then this post


And so true, I sold a tudor watch one time to a reputable dealer, I told him the minute hand was not original, the next day it was on his website (toroughfully checked according the website ) stating: original dail and hands...

I think most dealers now start with the intention to make money fast, and so they learn for a short time (building their so called expertise )

But sooner or later they get exposed, and this is just what happened in this case.

The seller is punished allready, his reputation got a huge blow

Any serious buyer will stumble on this thread

TRF is a like watch dog

[186431ww]

Dear Jose and other fellow forum members,

Many thanks Jose for your kind words. In this more and more individual world with social media people love to be negative. I admitted my fault immediately and contacted the OP and Jose, the watch has immediately been delisted from my website, chrono24 and instagram and I will send the watch back to the collector who was really unpleasantly surprised. This is a collector for 20 years with a lot of experience in the field of Rolex. I know him well enough to understand this wasn’t done intentionally. I also know what he will have to get through to get his money back.

Like I explained we did due diligence about this watch with several people (and all made a wrong judgment here), but I personally forgot a very important thing (check the serial) and as said before I am the only one to blame for that mistake and I am pissed off about that. But I am sort of accused here in this thread that this listing was fraudulent on purpose and very deliberate.

Forums can be a great source for good information and getting validation by very knowledgable people like Jose. But some people tend to react in a way that is not very human or normal in everyday life. I try my best to treat people as wel as my customers like how I would be treated. This also as a result from my own buying experiences. As a dealer you meet the good the bad and the very ugly (robberies, fakes, coverups, non-paying customers, non-functioning watches, watches with parts missing you name it).

And yes I can improve, I can always do better and I am never old enough to learn. When someone makes a mistake I give the person an opportunity to learn and improve.

Like Jose told and what i meant to make clear with my remark about the quantity and quality of the pictures that I make by myself: If I would have listed this watch on purpose with a fake case I would have been even more stupid to publish all of these pictures. Dealers with malicious intent tend to cover up. This is the same in the art world or used and exclusive car business.

Hope we can be kind constructive and fair. Lesson learned.

All the best from Amsterdam wouter van wijk wristicons

[alwayshere]

Originally Posted by MrBlobby

This thread is insane! Someone who sells watches offered a watch for sale which someone liked. He asked for second opinions and then someone who has a big database of past watch sales was able to point out some faults. The dealer then apologises. In reality it would appear that the dealer doesn’t have absolutely top notch knowledge. And now people are saying things along the lines that the dealer may have been defrauding people or a dealer needs to be fully invested in an item before they should sell it.

Hasn’t it always been buyer beware? Fortunately in this case the buyer was wary and ended up getting some really valuable advice.

Again, if you are selling a $100K watch, you ought to have the top notch knowledge. I'm not sure why you are defending the dealer here? imagine if you were on the receiving end of this transaction, realising that you spend $100K on a watch and it was a fake? I guess "buyers beware" yeah?

I'm harsh on this because letting a dealer off easy is how these sort of mistakes continue to circulate. This was one instance where a potential buyer came and checked with this forum - I can't imagine how many might have slipped through the cracks.

Originally Posted by swaini3

Watches on consignment do get checked as its the dealer's reputation on the line. Also, otherwise they could not offer their 1 yr warranty or conditions etc that are basically the same as for the watches they own.

I guess i'm looking at it from a balance sheet perspective right. Consignment means no real outlay for a dealer so generally it means less DD is required. If a buyer later finds out that the watch has issues, I doubt a dealers coughs up the difference. I haven't read the fine print of a consignment arrangement if the deal goes wrong so i'm happy to be corrected but if I'm a dealer and I made say $20K in commission from a watch, thats my liability, I can only refund what I recieved net of everything. I'm sure there is more legal structuring behind this but i'm just thinking first principles here.

Hopefully someone with better knowledge of this subject matter can chime in and confirm that i'm wrong.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Dan S

Honest mistake or fraud, it really doesn't matter for the buyer, IMO. Buyers need to be more careful trusting people who pose as experts. If I recall correctly from Omegaforums, this seller really doesn't have the type of long experience that leads to deep knowledge. 4 or 5 years ago, he was a newbie, asking naive questions (and his demeanor was always ... interesting). Just because someone has a nice website and appears to have expensive inventory (possibly on consignment) doesn't mean that you can trust their judgement about the authenticity of a 6-figure watch.

So many sketchy dealers have been setting up shop on the internet as vintage watch prices have soared. Every week there's another thread about one of them, a couple of weeks ago there was a similar thread about a teenager who owns one of the well-known dealer websites. No thanks, if I want to pay top dollar, I'll buy from someone who has deep knowledge coming from many years of experience. And even then, I'll do my own due diligence by asking people without a financial stake in the sale.

wonderful advice, that spans more than just watches IMHO

[swaini3]

Originally Posted by alwayshere

I guess i'm looking at it from a balance sheet perspective right. Consignment means no real outlay for a dealer so generally it means less DD is required. If a buyer later finds out that the watch has issues, I doubt a dealers coughs up the difference. I haven't read the fine print of a consignment arrangement if the deal goes wrong so i'm happy to be corrected but if I'm a dealer and I made say $20K in commission from a watch, thats my liability, I can only refund what I recieved net of everything. I'm sure there is more legal structuring behind this but i'm just thinking first principles here.

Hopefully someone with better knowledge of this subject matter can chime in and confirm that i'm wrong.

it is dealer's responsibility. He describes the watch, he puts it on his website and people are buying from him etc. Buyers have nothing to do with whether the watches offered are on consignemnt or not. From a buyer's point of view, the transaction is the same as other watches bought/owned by the dealer.
there is not one website that offers different T&c'S for buyers of consignment pieces.

[swaini3]

Here is one I found online (just for general education): https://consignwatch.com/consignment...and-conditons/