The Greys are the New AD's

[Richie07]

Originally Posted by sj24k

OMG. This is just cracking me up.

OP is 100% correct and expressing a verifiable fact. If you want to see and try on a variety of Rolexes in person, a grey dealer is the way to do it, and an AD is not. Any argument to the contrary is ridiculous.

And anyone who has made purchases from a trusted reseller can 100% verify that new watches are definitely available. Sure, technically they have changed hands to get from one place to the other, but they are just as new as if your friend went in and bought it and then drove it to your house and sold it to you. Not polished, not worn, not messed with in any way. And the warranty travels with the watch. Of course there are NOS watches that are exceptions to this, and used watches, and falsely advertised ones too, but that’s not what we’re talking about. So if you want to die on the hill of “not technically new,” then that’s your prerogative. But many trusted resellers do indeed sell plenty of watches that are, by every meaningful measure, new.

Finally, the forces of supply and demand, and choosing to pay a premium to get any watch you want whenever you want it is the definition of free market capitalism. And I for one feel very fortunate to be able to make those decisions for myself based on my desires and my means.

Ok, this time I’m really out.


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This is the truth. The system has broken. An AD recently told me their allocation of sports and, bluntly, I can see why they want to bundle. I can’t for the life of me imagine they could make a decent margin after costs with the meagre allocations they get from the mothership. The market is a mess. The gravitation toward Rolex as ‘the’ watch and also a general store of wealth has been hugely damaging to the average watch guy.

[jon_jon]

In the old days, you could get 20-25% off MSRP by buying from gray or pre-owned watch dealers. The discount was available for the Sub, GMT, Explorer, etc. Those days are long gone and who knows if they will return.

In huge pre-owned watch markets like HK, it seems pre-owned or gray dealers buy and sell from one another moreso than to end clients.

[painexpert]

Originally Posted by thenewrick

Grey's don't get new stuff only used. Very important to always remember that.

It may look to be in excellent condition but it's always used. If that doesn't matter to you that's cool.

not true.they have alot of bnib.

[xekret]

The greys even have waitlists for Rolex pieces.

[Oxfordian]

Greys are not the new AD’s, greys are simply a result of greed.

I have no doubt that a few years ago a grey dealer sold nearly new watches at a price below the authorised dealers.

Then the bubble began to grow, entrepreneurial people spotted a gap in the market and the rest as they say is now recent history.

If people choose to buy their watches at prices above retail then that’s fine, it’s their money.

Buying from a grey at an over inflated price is not for me, if I cannot get a watch via the AD then I cannot get it. I’ll look at other brands and other watches, there are many great watches, many better than a Rolex just without the cache of Rolex.

Any Rolex I buy will be via the AD network, I have a nice relationship with my local store, if I want something specific I just have to be patient and wait for the call.

But if you are impatient and cannot wait and are happy to pay above retail then by all means go for it.

[Oxfordian]

Originally Posted by painexpert

not true.they have alot of bnib.

But that is used, it is not new.

The watch may be stickered, still have its hang tags, it may have simply gone in its box from the AD to the grey market with its new owner, that is a secondhand watch, therefore used.

The watch is only new if it sold to you via an authorised Rolex AD.

[Oxfordian]

Originally Posted by Richie07

This is the truth. The system has broken. An AD recently told me their allocation of sports and, bluntly, I can see why they want to bundle. I can’t for the life of me imagine they could make a decent margin after costs with the meagre allocations they get from the mothership. The market is a mess. The gravitation toward Rolex as ‘the’ watch and also a general store of wealth has been hugely damaging to the average watch guy.

AD’s sell every watch they get, their stock is low because people buy it, it doesn’t help that demand is sky high.

But if you have a good relationship with your AD you can get the watch you want reasonably quickly.

[brucethemanlee]

Originally Posted by oxfordian

ad’s sell every watch they get, their stock is low because people buy it, it doesn’t help that demand is sky high.

But if you have a good relationship with your ad you can get the watch you want reasonably quickly.

+1

[Gab27]

Originally Posted by Oxfordian

But that is used, it is not new.

The watch may be stickered, still have its hang tags, it may have simply gone in its box from the AD to the grey market with its new owner, that is a secondhand watch, therefore used.

The watch is only new if it sold to you via an authorised Rolex AD.

If that is the case, then it should also be clarified that some "used" stickered Rolexes at secondary dealers are in better condition than some "new" Rolexes sitting in AD display cases or safes with the stickers removed...

[Sprta]

This is so typical of all the whinners who cannot get the Rolex watches they want. The system is broken, the ADs are backdooring all their watches toi the greys, yada, yada, yada. Whats so difficult to understand? The demand far exceeds supply, therefore people who are able to secure the watches, many sell them for profit to the greys. Its insulting to the the majority of ADs who sell these watches to their best customers by accusing them of backdooring to the greys.
Whars more profitable for an AD, sell a watch to the grey at a fair profit, or sell it to their best customers who generate a significant amount of revenue for them.
It makes me wonder, all those that do most of the complaining would be the first to flip the watches, if they actually got one.

[1665fan]

Originally Posted by Gab27

If that is the case, then it should also be clarified that some "used" stickered Rolexes at secondary dealers are in better condition than some "new" Rolexes sitting in AD display cases or safes with the stickers removed...

LOL exactly.......

[djyolky]

Originally Posted by Oxfordian

But that is used, it is not new.



The watch may be stickered, still have its hang tags, it may have simply gone in its box from the AD to the grey market with its new owner, that is a secondhand watch, therefore used.



The watch is only new if it sold to you via an authorised Rolex AD.

Nobody cares. It's new for all intent and purposes.

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[thenewrick]

Originally Posted by djyolky

Nobody cares. It's new for all intent and purposes.

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The whole point of this topic is that people care. Some people don’t like wearing used clothing/jewelry. Some couldn’t care less. It doesn’t matter the condition. To each their own.

But it’s very important for new members who aren’t savvy to know that all Grey Market sales are used watches and unverified by Rolex. It would be a disservice to trick people. I think if you actually talked to any of the “Trusted Sellers” and asked if they sold new watches verified by Rolex as 1st owner pieces they’d be honest and admit they were previously owned before obviously being owned by the vendor itself. So there’s a minimum of 1 previous owner and in most cases 2+. So your trust goes from 1- Rolex to AD working on Rolex behalf to minimum 2 parties and most likely 3+. It’s a game of telephone and how many people you trust. Some couldn’t care less if it’s changed hands 100 times before they buy it and trust each party especially the final party; some don’t.

No sense ragging on people for not trusting multiple strangers in a notoriously sketchy business with thousands at stake.

[Driver8]

Originally Posted by Oxfordian

But that is used, it is not new.

The watch may be stickered, still have its hang tags, it may have simply gone in its box from the AD to the grey market with its new owner, that is a secondhand watch, therefore used.

The watch is only new if it sold to you via an authorised Rolex AD.

To me that’s just semantics I’m afraid. OK by the absolute letter of the law, then yes a watch can only be genuinely “new” once - i.e. at the initial point of sale. But if a watch at a grey has full factory stickers, is clearly unworn, and has a full set of boxes, papers, tags, etc, then it’s obviously not considered as “used”…because it hasn’t been. A lot of watches at greys end up there within literally days of being sold by the AD.

To my mind a watch that’s been sat in an AD (not a Rolex obviously!), tried on by countless potential customers, and handled by numerous SA’s is potentially less “new” than a watch that has gone straight from an AD to a buyer to a grey.

[BroncoOne]

Originally Posted by thenewrick

Thankfully zero frustration here!

I think you’re agreeing with me without realizing it. My argument is it is a bad look to have so many undesirable models rot in cases due to overproduction like Breitling and Panerai. They’re also selling all their watches but the secondary market doesn’t support it well the same as the overproduced Rolexes. I think the goal would be to even out demand and production to a perfect equilibrium where demand is equally high for all production numbers and steady price and production increases where the market tolerates

We certainly agree on some points but I don't believe that Rolex should change anything.

People on this forum may think that the steel professional models are the best watches, but the general population thinks that a Rolex is a Rolex. They don't know much about the different references; they just want a Rolex and when they are ready to buy, they buy what they can get and are happy about it. There are a LOT more people like that than there are people who freak out getting a Hulk or a Batman or obsess over a Jubilee vs an Oyster bracelet.

Those "undesirable" models aren't undesirable to many millions of people and there is a demand for these other references.

More to the point, from the Rolex perspective, there is exactly equal demand for every single watch that they make. Rolex sells 100% of every single model, every year to its ADs. It doesn't seem to be hurting the Rolex brand value whatsoever to keep making watches that aren't professional models, in fact it seems to be helping it, A LOT.

[Oxfordian]

Originally Posted by Gab27

If that is the case, then it should also be clarified that some "used" stickered Rolexes at secondary dealers are in better condition than some "new" Rolexes sitting in AD display cases or safes with the stickers removed...

If you buy a watch and put it in the safe and never ever wear it then it will remain your new watch, if you sell it you can state, never worn, as new, but not new as you bought it new, it will be a secondhand watch to the next owner.

Brand new in box is almost a true statement as the watch is as new in box but it is not brand new, that privilege went when it left the AD.

You can only sell an item ‘new’ once, thereafter it is used irrespective of condition.

[BroncoOne]

Originally Posted by thenewrick

Thankfully zero frustration here!

I think you’re agreeing with me without realizing it. My argument is it is a bad look to have so many undesirable models rot in cases due to overproduction like Breitling and Panerai. They’re also selling all their watches but the secondary market doesn’t support it well the same as the overproduced Rolexes. I think the goal would be to even out demand and production to a perfect equilibrium where demand is equally high for all production numbers and steady price and production increases where the market tolerates

We certainly agree on some points but I don't believe that Rolex should change anything.

People on this forum may think that the steel professional models are the best watches, but the general population thinks that a Rolex is a Rolex. They don't know much about the different references; they just want a Rolex and when they are ready to buy, they buy what they can get and are happy about it. There are a LOT more people like that than there are people who freak out getting a Hulk or a Batman or obsess over a Jubilee vs an Oyster bracelet. Those models aren't undesirable to many millions of people.

Rolex seems to have the ideal wholesale business model. From the Rolex perspective, there is exactly equal demand for every single watch that they make. Rolex sells 100% of every single model, every year to its ADs.

[thenewrick]

I don’t think the demand for the Pearlmaster is the same as the Daytona. ;p

I don’t think Rolex is foolish I’d just like to see them balance things out a bit. In my mind when you go to a Rolex store as an enthusiast and only see ladies datejusts and Pearlmasters it makes you think they’re undesirable watches and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. If it were really hard to get ladies Datejusts and Pearlmasters I think you might actually see higher demand and prices for them. Luxury goods are weird that way. People want the more expensive and harder to get item because it feels more luxurious.

[Oxfordian]

Originally Posted by Driver8

To me that’s just semantics I’m afraid. OK by the absolute letter of the law, then yes a watch can only be genuinely “new” once - i.e. at the initial point of sale. But if a watch at a grey has full factory stickers, is clearly unworn, and has a full set of boxes, papers, tags, etc, then it’s obviously not considered as “used”…because it hasn’t been. A lot of watches at greys ends up there within literally days of being sold by the AD.

To my mind a watch that’s been sat in an AD (not a Rolex obviously!), tried on by countless potential customers, and handled by numerous SA’s is potentially less “new” than a watch that has gone straight from an AD to a buyer to a grey.

You said it yourself, the watch can only be new once, what condition the watch is in when it is sold for a second time is irrelevant as the watch is no longer new. It can be stated, as new, unworn, still in shipping case whatever but it cannot be new.

[thenewrick]

Originally Posted by Oxfordian

You said it yourself, the watch can only be new once, what condition the watch is in when it is sold for a second time is irrelevant as the watch is no longer new. It can be stated, as new, unworn, still in shipping case whatever but it cannot be new.

“First is a flag that flies forever”

[Driver8]

Originally Posted by Oxfordian

You said it yourself, the watch can only be new once, what condition the watch is in when it is sold for a second time is irrelevant as the watch is no longer new. It can be stated, as new, unworn, still in shipping case whatever but it cannot be new.

As I say, semantics aside, I agree a watch can only be technically new once. But I disagree that condition when a watch is sold a second time is irrelevant : there’s nothing MORE relevant IMO. I’ve bought watches brand new from ADs that have had handling marks (and once even strap change marks), and I’ve also bought discontinued models from greys that have full factory stickers and are absolutely mint. Needless to say I considered the unmarked models far “newer” than ones with handling marks, and I walked away far happier from the grey than I did the AD.

[djyolky]

Originally Posted by thenewrick

The whole point of this topic is that people care. Some people don’t like wearing used clothing/jewelry. Some couldn’t care less. It doesn’t matter the condition. To each their own.

But it’s very important for new members who aren’t savvy to know that all Grey Market sales are used watches and unverified by Rolex. It would be a disservice to trick people. I think if you actually talked to any of the “Trusted Sellers” and asked if they sold new watches verified by Rolex as 1st owner pieces they’d be honest and admit they were previously owned before obviously being owned by the vendor itself. So there’s a minimum of 1 previous owner and in most cases 2+. So your trust goes from 1- Rolex to AD working on Rolex behalf to minimum 2 parties and most likely 3+. It’s a game of telephone and how many people you trust. Some couldn’t care less if it’s changed hands 100 times before they buy it and trust each party especially the final party; some don’t.

No sense ragging on people for not trusting multiple strangers in a notoriously sketchy business with thousands at stake.

I purchased a new watch shipped directly from an ad to a reputable seller. It's new. You get into all the technicalities you want, doesn't change the fact of it being new.


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[thenewrick]

Technically it's not new and the fact is it's not new. It's in "Excellent condition" and "like new condition". The words do matter.

There's a reason a Carfax report tells you how many previous owners and where it was bought and sold each time. It's not because it's irrelevant.

It might not matter much, I agree. But people do care.

I'll probably be shopping for a discontinued model one day and will obviously have to buy it used from the Grey Market. But, I'd never buy a current model from the GM used. Add in the extra cost of buying many models used now and it's a resounding no from me.

[fogby]

Originally Posted by thenewrick

No sense ragging on people for not trusting multiple strangers in a notoriously sketchy business with thousands at stake.

Serious question: Is there a history of fraud from reputable grey's?

I've bought from a grey and honestly never worried a bit about authenticity. I did research on the dealer, but after being satisfied with my research I never was concerned.

But I'm not one to worry a lot anyway.

[Xerxes77]

Unfortunately I must agree….

[PerpinNC]

Originally Posted by GST15

Lots of people waited and are still waiting for the new Corvette! They are on wait lists, and GM dealers were charging a premium over MSRP for them. People who didn't want to wait bought a Porsche or something else.
If you can't get the Rolex you want, or you don't want to spend some time stopping in to speak to the AD, then follow up with a call or text, there are other great high end watches to buy. I don't know what the problem is with Rolex distribution, and neither does anyone here, and I do believe there are some dishonest AD's, but I think most are doing the best they can. They can't make the watches appear.

That GM dealer would not have told you to fly in to their dealership to build a relationship before selling you a Corvette. That is the difference. Point being, just be upfront either you have the item or you don't or simply say I am not selling the item to you because I am not a whale or a customer that spends thousands of dollars on jewelry I do not want. Games are for kids not adults.

[Rashid.bk]

Originally Posted by Oxfordian

But that is used, it is not new.

The watch may be stickered, still have its hang tags, it may have simply gone in its box from the AD to the grey market with its new owner, that is a secondhand watch, therefore used.

The watch is only new if it sold to you via an authorised Rolex AD.

This is true. But it isn’t referring to the condition or the status of the watch. It is only referring to the technical and literal meaning of a watch trading hands for its “first” time and when the warranty is activated.
It’s true, like a human a watch can’t be born more than once, but just like a human it can be a virgin.

Dealers are selling sealed in coffin Rolex models and sealed in plastic Pateks, if you call that watch “used”, you’re common sense meter is broken and you’re being pedantic.

[Gab27]

Originally Posted by Oxfordian

If you buy a watch and put it in the safe and never ever wear it then it will remain your new watch, if you sell it you can state, never worn, as new, but not new as you bought it new, it will be a secondhand watch to the next owner.

Brand new in box is almost a true statement as the watch is as new in box but it is not brand new, that privilege went when it left the AD.

You can only sell an item ‘new’ once, thereafter it is used irrespective of condition.

Fair enough, but in that case and if we are making this distinction, it should also be noted that sometimes a used watch is in better condition than a new one.

[Rashid.bk]

Originally Posted by thenewrick

Technically it's not new and the fact is it's not new. It's in "Excellent condition" and "like new condition". The words do matter.

There's a reason a Carfax report tells you how many previous owners and where it was bought and sold each time. It's not because it's irrelevant.

You’re right words do matter and the above watches aren’t new. They are as you state. I guess context is important, so if a reputable and trusted seller in the industry says it’s new, NIB, or bnib at the time that watch is new, itself. That is referring to the condition and status of the watch.
Now if you’re playing lottery on ebay buying from some random person, that’s something else.

Carfax tracks purchase history and accidents, someone could have a carfax for a 2019 BMW M3 with three buyers on it, no accidents and the mileage report is 6 miles. That’s a new car especially upon inspection.
Dealers sell new cars for the first time with 600, 1300 or even 2000 miles on them, brand new from the dealer, might get a huge discount but I personally wouldn’t consider a car that was a loaner for 2000 miles new just because while it’s on the dealer lot with 2300 miles, it doesn’t have a car fax because it hasn’t been originally sold. Just common sense to me.

[HogwldFLTR]

Originally Posted by Bizcut1

Might as well face it. If you'd like to look at, try on, and maybe even purchase a new Rolex of any real interest you'll need to pay a visit to a grey dealer.

They are the new AD's.

I've avoided this thread to date and maybe should have kept on avoiding it. It's an interesting perspective. It kind of implies that the ADs are really the whole sellers. If you get a watch from an AD you've bought it wholesale. I really have no issue with buying either way. I just will only use greys when it's too my advantage (for what ever reason I choose).

It's still good to deal with ADs and get cheaper watches than I can currently get on the grey market. That's a win from my perspective. I've also tailored my model targeting to what I can get from ADs as opposed to paying exorbitant grey prices. With the rising tide much of the catalog has gained value. I'm happy to have had access to watch models I might not have gone after had the market not taken off on its upward spiral (in the past year, Milgauss and OP41 and before that my Platona). What's most important is wearing what you like; sometimes it's not the most obvious choice either. When life cuts you lemons, make lemon chicken as they say (or something like that)!!!