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7 January 2022, 12:54 AM | #91 | |
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I thought Patek was owned by a family, as is AP. Only VC is owned by a large group. I would make a distinction between large watchmaking companies and small, more confidential ones. Let’s draw the limit of the large ones at anything over 4-5,000 watches a year. In that bracket, - Patek I don’t think anyone can fault Patek. While their watches may not be the best from a manufacturing and finishing standpoint, they still are extraordinary and Patek manages with very few exceptions to make them feel „significant“. That is very much deserving of trinity status in my view. - ALS In terms of blowing everyone‘s mind, few are as proficient as the good folks in Glashütte. They have changed what we expect to see in a high quality watch and for that, they deserve a spot on the top as well. AP in contrast only deserves to be named here because they make the cases for ALS. - VC Despite their all over the place marketing and their consistent failure to position their products properly, the watchmaking at VC is the closest you’re going to get to „made as they should be“ from a large manufacturer. The quality of finishing in even a simple watch like a Traditionelle small seconds, i.e. the 4400 movement, has a quiet and unpretentious excellence that knows few equals among the other brands in that bracket. It’s not as spectacular looking as a Lange perhaps, nor as well marketed as a Patek, but it’s so much more thorough and „pure“ than what you’ll get from both these other houses. So still well deserving of a trinity spot. And their almost cute ineptitude in terms of communicating their qualities adds to the charm. In the more confidential bracket, I would say the field is so much more open, one can hardly boil it down to three. The only thing I am strongly opposed to is to name a brand with as little proper finishing work as Moser in the same context as truly excellent watchmakers like Greubel Forsey, Kari, Dufour, Akrivia, Gauthier, FPJ, etc. They make nice watches in low numbers but in that company they’re about as well made as a Mc Donald’s burger in a Michelin kitchen.
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7 January 2022, 01:11 AM | #92 | |
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But I would argue that in the period we witness now, the recognition of watchmaking as an art couldn’t be greater. Social media has given the small actors in the market an equal footing in terms of communicating what they do and it has become visible to the masses. So I‘m fairly confident that brands like FPJ but also smaller ones like Kari, MB&F or maybe even Akrivia can lay the Badis today for something that could endure as well as the big old ones we rever today have. And so in 50 years, we may well regard them equally, as the market appreciates all of Rothko, Picasso, the impressionists and the old Dutch masters as great valuable artists, despite the very different periods they’re from. Heck in 50 years, we might even have to add Banksy and the Cryptopunks to that list.
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7 January 2022, 04:39 PM | #93 |
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Fpj
pp als |
8 January 2022, 01:15 AM | #94 |
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The real companies to look at are Roger Dubuis and Franck Muller.
Particularly FM would have been tip-top of this discussion circa 2004 or whatever. It's not that now. Investors always seem to want to take over and run things into the ground, except when those investors are really dedicated to the brand. That's what makes FPJ special (run by investors who are friends/collectors of FPJ, always has been), and now UJ. Not the case with PSM, L&H, O&J (?), and RD and FM.... Although, maybe when FPJ retires his friends will cash out, so who knows, really. The existence of the FPJ watchmaking school and his continual statements that he has a plan to keep his brand going and independent seem to mediate against that strongly, though. Same question should be asked even more strongly of Groenfeld, Akrivia, etc. |
8 January 2022, 02:47 AM | #95 | |
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The more creative younger, or young at heart, generation also appreciates something outside of the 'typical timepiece'. It has to be... more creative and compelling.
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8 January 2022, 10:59 PM | #96 | |
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You previously made notion to China entering the high end watchmaking world. So what if the do? Very possible for sure, and also not impossible that they gank the best designs and throw an ass pile of cash at it and make what might be “the best watch ever.” Unlikely, but still possible. Again, so what if they do? Would that ever place them on consideration for Holy Trinity status? It couldn’t or shouldn’t to me anyway. What is the defining difference between top three watchmakers of the year and Holy Trinity status? |
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8 January 2022, 11:53 PM | #97 | |||
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Five years just to have the honor of preparing the rice. Quote:
In the end, as posted earlier, it is far beyond my pay grade to decide. For me, it simply is self-evident the Old School Holy Trinity is outdated, and seems quite a few others agree. Yet, sadly, seems infighting and questions about qualification, and we all know if this gets traction we'll have the bean counter $$$$$ entities (and, perhaps, militant political 'actors' / stock holders) who may.... -------- -------- Ah well, guess the best thing is to simply take time and help educate those about how common it is for the Internet to be incorrect, from time to time. This is especially true as the decades pass and data becomes outdated. The Internet is still relatively young, especially as compared to how we age things in astronomy. Rest assured, as time passes, we'll see much more of that as the Internet finally 'gets old' decades down the line. jmho So, perhaps, let's put things in perspective. And we can add every watchmaker.... Untitled-1.jpg
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9 January 2022, 12:52 AM | #98 |
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Audemars Piguet
Patek Philippe Vacheron Constantin = Holy Trinity.
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A. Lange & Sohne | Audemars Piguet | F.P.Journe | Omega | Patek Philippe | Rolex | Tudor | ...and Othersss |
9 January 2022, 04:30 AM | #99 |
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Patek
Vacheron AP My holy trinity. Love all 3! |
9 January 2022, 12:58 PM | #100 |
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Patek
ALS Vacheron |
9 January 2022, 01:48 PM | #101 | |
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YOU Decide: The NEW Modern Holy Trinity
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I do recoginize there are a lot of extremely impressive watch brands producing absolutely stunning timepieces, no doubt. Many of these brands are producing products on a completely different level.
I'm always quick to say, "let's look forward, not backwards." However, in this case, I think history matters, and it matters a lot.
I just think the Holy Trinity is still the Holy Trinity, at least for now... |
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9 January 2022, 02:12 PM | #102 |
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Blancpain 1735, 1st watch
Breguet 1775, 1st wrist watch Both brands still relevant today, why did they not make the list? Asking for a friend. |
9 January 2022, 10:07 PM | #103 | |
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During my talks with quite a few others, my mind somehow seemed to compile that the older gen likes status quo, whereas the younger 'kids' are far more openminded (to change). Again, that is/was my personal perception. (Said in good friendly humor) i'll let you slide on answering the age question. See, here's where we REALLY need a meetup in FL. And so yes, am doing a TRF meetup in TPA during Feb (look for new thread).
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9 January 2022, 10:13 PM | #104 |
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Someone would have to define the criteria to entry …
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9 January 2022, 10:55 PM | #105 |
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Who defined which brands made up the Old School Holy Trinity? What was their criteria? Anyone know all the details?
Anyone at all? It's almost beginning to feel like someone told 'a lie' often enough many decades ago and people just parroted it over the years, and so then it somehow becomes 'fact'. Please, pretty please prove me wrong and let's chat with those individuals who originally decided many decades ago (if they're even still alive) what should be the 'Modern rules'.
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9 January 2022, 10:58 PM | #106 | |
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I have no idea what the criteria is .... anyone? Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk |
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10 January 2022, 01:11 AM | #107 | |
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I'd say it's more complicated then this but Breguet French company. Swatch group. Breguet history v current company are very different. If they could have continued their innovation without disruption they always could be argued as why are they not part of it, say over AP? Blancpain, the new company nowhere near the level of the HT3 watchmakers or even Breguet ( I have owned several) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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10 January 2022, 01:48 AM | #108 | |
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Holy Trinity criteria for me is a three legged stool: 1) history of setting benchmarks for beautiful design/aesthetics. 2) engineering and mechanical chops: a track record of contributing to horology innovation 3) sustainable business models that has demonstrated viability over a period measured in decades (I’d say at least 30). I also would add global distribution to the criteria as a measure of scale. For me, to be in the holy trinity, you need to hit all three marks. Oftentimes on these boards I see criteria criteria 2 and 1 emphasized to the exclusion of criteria 3. But for me, criteria 3 (ie. business scale and sustainability) is what makes this conversation so interesting! |
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10 January 2022, 01:57 AM | #109 | |
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Think you mean 30 years (not 300), and agree 30 years of consistency. If I may add, the Modern Holy Trinity list should be 'refreshened' every 10 or 15 years. The reason is, some brands could falter, or they get chosen and so 'rest on their laurels'. You have an excellent list Personally speaking, ALS and VC are strong contenders for 'higher production' brands.
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10 January 2022, 02:33 AM | #110 | |
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I should add that I got the 3 pronged criteria from David Landes’ book Revolution in Time. He divided his history of timekeeping into three categories, 1) history of culture 2) history of science and technology and 3) business and economic history. For shorthand, I call that aesthetics, engineering, and business. I figured a criteria for holy trinity status could benefit from the 3 pronged approach. Landes: ‘Still, like it or not, there comes time for parturition. The book represents a first attempt at a general history of time measurement and its contribution, for better or worse, to what we call modern civilization. It is a triptych: a study in cultural history; in the history of science and technology; and in social and economic history.’ Page XX, Preface. https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog....=9780674002821 |
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10 January 2022, 02:45 AM | #111 |
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I just realized that using my 3 pronged approach, I myself have to completely revamp my initial answer! Happy to learn and grow here . . .
Initial answer: Richard Mille Greubel Forsey Audemars Piguet Updated answer: Patek Philippe Audemars Piguet Vacheron Constantin But, with the new ALS 30 years old now, and FP Journe within a decade of being 30 years old (and actively building a sustainability plan), I can see why this is a tricky question! I could easily and happily swap ALS in for any of the three on my list. |
10 January 2022, 02:59 AM | #112 |
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^^^ Exactly! And this is why it is important to find out the criteria of the original list. We may have discovered that the Old School Holy Trinity fabled list... the Emperor Has No Clothes.
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10 January 2022, 03:19 AM | #113 | |
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Only FPJ seems to really strike the balance between both of these disciplines well, with a very nicely tied together brand story, a distinctive design, excellent communication, opportunistic but effective distribution and credible watchmaking (with good enough but not stellar finishing).
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12 January 2022, 09:04 PM | #114 | |
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I could not agree more. I have been looking at Parmagiani for a while now. I've tried on a couple of pieces as well... They are unbelievable. What is crazy to me is that they hit all the marks collectors usually care about: finishing (top of the line), in-house manufacturing (these guys are "in-house" all the way down to manufacturing their own screws! They may be more "in-house" than any other brand actually), and independence. But nobody talks about them... Why? Their marketing is not great since they don't sponsor major events (except for Hot Air Ballooning), they don's have "icons" and they typically aren't found in print ads. Then again... perhaps the fact that they abscond from that stuff, is indeed what makes them great. I've heard that they have historically run at a loss, and they've never been profitable. Is that true? |
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12 January 2022, 09:15 PM | #115 |
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1) Laurent Ferrier
2) Parmigiani 3) FP Journe |
12 January 2022, 10:48 PM | #116 |
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Well, i've emailed a few magazine editors and whatnot. So far not a single person knows how the Old School Holy Trinity came to be. No one has even bothered to know what the criteria were at the time. No one knows who chose the trinity(!).
From the replies, there's a strong love for: Rolex FP Journe So, who deserves the third spot. My vote is for MB&F. Again, there are no 'rules' as no one ever set them to begin with. There are no limits of production, again because there are no rules. So we have Rolex and FPJ as what seems to be a universal choice.
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12 January 2022, 11:00 PM | #117 |
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13 January 2022, 12:19 AM | #118 |
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Dunno 'em, you can ask and post here. In fact, everyone reading this who 'knows someone' independent/authoritative should email them and post their name/reply here. Am sure you want to hear from those who are considered authorities in the industry. Below is the email / message you send to them
------- ------- I have a few simple questions: Who chose which brands were considered the "Holy Trinity" back in 1960s? What were the criteria used back in 1960, and do you feel the same criteria should be used today? This list has not been updated in over 60 years, and so.... Do you feel the Holy Trinity list needs updating? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ho...nity_(horology) Thanks for your time.
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13 January 2022, 01:10 AM | #119 |
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How does rolex make the modern trilology?
Is their innovation above Omega's? (It doesn't surpass the origonal 3) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
13 January 2022, 02:55 AM | #120 |
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They don’t
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