32xx movement problem poll and data thread

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

I used to horse ride when I was younger
But the vibration may have affected my watch so the precision was bad

I used to play water polo, but my horse drown....

OK, I’ll stop with the bad jokes

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by ROLEX*

What does it mean by OK in Accuracy and Precision numbers?

There is a difference, but a graph would surely illustrate better than explanations.

I try to keep it simple in my mind.
So I just accept that it's easier to fine tune the accuracy of a watch in real world terms if it's actually precise.
If it's not precise then it's a bit like trying to catch a greasy weasel.

Interestingly, came across a little something about a particular caliber and related series of calibers of movement by a totally different manufacturer.
The article stated that the particular caliber i was interested in is adjusted for 6 positions to be within their -3 to +5 tolerance, which is widely stated and accepted.
Here's where it gets interesting, in that the article goes on to state that the manufacturer expects and accepts the above numbers above to equate to the same movement running at between -1 and +10 when worn on the wrist.

Interesting and noteworthy as it is. I can't devote any more energy into it all other than noting how accurate a watch is as it is worn on the wrist. Other than that how accurate it is at various resting positions when attempting a bit of self regulation.

The rest of it, I will leave entirely to the trained professionals and their expertise as they have never let me down

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by Dirt

Interesting and noteworthy as it is. I can't devote any more energy into it all other than noting how accurate a watch is as it is worn on the wrist. Other than that how accurate it is at various resting positions when attempting a bit of self regulation.

The rest of it, I will leave entirely to the trained professionals and their expertise as they have never let me down

Very well said. I wear my watch pretty much 24/7, and it is consistently- 1.5 seconds per day. That’s very acceptable to me and all I need to know.

[saxo3]

What does it mean by OK in Accuracy and Precision numbers?

Originally Posted by Dirt

There is a difference, but a graph would surely illustrate better than explanations.

Dirt, You'll Never Walk Alone

I know you love my graphs.
Here you go. (The non-VTC version)

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

And please don’t say I can just look at the graphs, I tried to understand them but my head exploded.

Be careful my friend.

That can end unexpectedly ... Adiós

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by saxo3

What does it mean by OK in Accuracy and Precision numbers?



Dirt, You'll Never Walk Alone

I know you love my graphs.
Here you go. (The non-VTC version)

Perfect
Thankyou.
That's certainly plain enough for everybody

[CharlesN]

A few days ago I noticed my watch seemed to do a dive with Timekeeping.
(Yes I did realise I have a divers watch).

A few days later it started to level off and now it’s slightly reversed. I agree it is very slight but it is noticeable.

I have not yet this morning had time to place my watch in my timegrapher but yesterday on the timegrapher I did not detect any obvious change
I will look later.
Please note this picture from my iPhone app WatchTracker is good but too basic for serious accurate readings. It is only good for a visual guideline.




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[Dirt]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

A few days ago I noticed my watch seemed to do a dive with Timekeeping.
(Yes I did realise I have a divers watch).

A few days later it started to level off and now it’s slightly reversed. I agree it is very slight but it is noticeable.

I have not yet this morning had time to place my watch in my timegrapher but yesterday on the timegrapher I did not detect any obvious change
I will look later.
Please note this picture from my iPhone app WatchTracker is good but too basic for serious accurate readings. It is only good for a visual guideline.




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It may well be nothing of any concern as it's quickly returning to the overall trend with that upward swing at the end.

[CharlesN]

As promised in a previous post this morning here is some more data

It is strange that the readings so far are not showing the upturn in time keeping as is shown in the WatchTracker app.

The x figures tell it all in reality. There is just no escape from that.

This is possibly caused by my wearing pattern but speculation is not one thing that I like. Hard proof is always better and more reliable.






I will have more data at mid-day (U.K.) time and will post that at a suitable time.


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[saxo3]

New Rolex Advert

COMING SOON
20 May 2021

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by saxo3

New Rolex Advert

COMING SOON
20 May 2021

I am excited Is it something great .. i hope it is.

I wonder if my AD knows anything ... I will call him to get on the waiting list for something good.

I wonder if my AD will be honest and not sell the first ones he gets to the grey market but let real customers have a chance first.

Will it be precious metal or Stainless Steel they have done nothing in Titanium yet also .. so more thoughts here.

Have you been to the Eidgenossenschaft to find something ?

I am on http://www.rolex.com now to see what you can see.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by saxo3

New Rolex Advert

COMING SOON
20 May 2021 @10:10:31

[Rori]

Originally Posted by saxo3

:-)
I wish I have the tools to collaborate with this amazing study.
Good work guys and kudos to all of you who are feeding this thread with data.


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[CharlesN]

Going by my TimeGrapher my watch looses about -0.56spd (VERY VERY GOOD). This figure is an average of the last 6 days monitoring.

But In TRUTH My watch looses -0.34spd and I am still monitoring it on WatchTracker. (Thats stunningy accurate)

To me this is interesting. But ..... I have changed one habit ..... I now do a FULL WIND at middle of the day prior to taking readings of the 5 Positions on the TimeGrapher.

Next week I will carry on the same observations but I will not do a full wind prior to using the TimeGrapher. I will just use real life wearing to see if there is any difference.

I have noticed in the last week that the WatchTracker app is showing a slight but steady increase in timekeeping. The loss it was making has slightly diminished. I am guessing that this is caused by the full wind I do prior to every TimeGrapher test daily.

But, What is a little odd to my thinking is that I take my dog for a longish walk every day, rain or shine, and I do this before I do the measurements. I would have expected my watch to be fully wound after a long walk.
Is manual wind to fully wound different to walking and winding to be fully wound in Amplitude ?

At the moment at night I place my watch DD. It used to be 3U but I have changed. I will continue with DD until this next set of tests concludes.

I do realise that some of you will think I am completely daft doing these measurements, but, no harm comes to any of the following, My dog, My watch or me. I just learn a little more every day.

Ps I will post a photo of the WatchTracker results separately.

[CharlesN]

As promised …… My WatchTracker results to date …….




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[CharlesN]

This is my latest set of tables … Monday to Saturday .. Just Tomorrow (Sunday) to go for a full weeks observations.

And guess what …….. It starts all over again next Monday




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[saxo3]

Charles, there are a few lessons to learn from your data:

- Your mechanical watch is running extremely well and has no issue at all.

- All measured rates are integer numbers.

- For the Weishi 1900 timegrapher, the rate range can be chosen, either +/- 999 s/d or +/- 99 s/d. Consequently, the rate resolution is either +/- 1 s/d or +/- 0.1 s/d. See screenshot of your Timegrapher Manual below. You have used the low-resolution range.

- Your averaged-rate (X) varied between -0.2 and -0.8 s/d. If you would add an error bar of at least +/- 0.5 s/d to each rate then all X values become identical (within the error bar range).

- A comparison of your timegrapher (-0.56 s/d) with your WatchTracker result (-0.34 s/d) makes … sorry to say …. no sense, especially on a 10 ms level.

- Amplitude values with one decimal digit?

- Your Submariner is running consistently in the range 0 to -1 s/d, absolutely perfect.

- For future rate measurements I would choose the higher resolution mode of your timegrapher, especially if your rates are so close to 0 s/d.

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Charles,

- Your Submariner is running consistently in the range 0 to -1 s/d, absolutely perfect.

I know it’s running amazingly well with over 21 days and a total error of just 7.5 seconds
That’s astonishingly good and I am delighted.

As to my measuring ……. I did say above that on Monday it will all start again but this time using a far more “sensitive” scale showing the extra digit.
I may not be able to start on Monday though …… I might have to start later in the week for technical reasons.
I will finish this week in the low sensitivity range to then be able to compare a full week in another setting.

[CharlesN]

I am almost halfway through this weeks set of observations

I have done 3 out of 7 days.

I have slightly altered my method …
I now fully wind my watch and place it in the TimeGrapher
I leave it there for a minimum of 30 mins to settle down nicely
I then record the DU results
Then I rotate the watch to the next required position (3U) and wait 5 mons before recording the results. I do this between all 5 positions (Not 12U).

I have also set the scale of my Timegrapher to show a more sensitive error (+/-) by adding a decimal point.

I then also calculate the X and record that so I do an X of X weekly. That is not normal but it’s for my own fun.

Here are my first 3 days observations.




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[CharlesN]

My setup has also slightly changed.

I have moved everything into my home office where it is virtually silent and nobody will touch anything.




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[krounchou]

Had to bring my watch for service today, 3 y.o Datejust 41 with 3235 caliber with low amplitude crown down and loosing 6-7 sec / day. They say it was better to service it as it's still under warranty...

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by krounchou

3 y.o Datejust 41 with 3235 caliber with low amplitude crown down and loosing 6-7 sec / day. They say it was better to service it as it's still under warranty...

I 100% agree. A service is definately whats required. If possible at the RSC.

Did you take it to your AD or a Rolex service centre ? Do you know if the AD is servicing it or the RSC ?

The RSC will replace anything that may need to be updated.

I am sure your watch will come back to you not only looking like brand new but working much better also.

[krounchou]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

I 100% agree. A service is definately whats required. If possible at the RSC.

Did you take it to your AD or a Rolex service centre ? Do you know if the AD is servicing it or the RSC ?

The RSC will replace anything that may need to be updated.

I am sure your watch will come back to you not only looking like brand new but working much better also.

I brought it to the AD of the city where I live which happened to be the largest Rolex seller of the country and services the watches on site. The RSC is in another city and the AD told me it would be serviced on site. This AD already serviced a 14060 and a old datejust for me in the past

[krounchou]

Thanks for the feedback. Brought it the AD who also is one of the biggest seller of Rolex of the country. The RSC is in another city.
This AD has full service capacity for non vintage Rolex. They send vintage pieces to Switzerland.
They told me 20 to 25 days. Hopefully they treat it well !

[CharlesN]

I have been wondering if there are vast differences between measuring on a TimeGrapher and an Chronoscope.

Well my curiosity got the better of me so I arranged a comparison test

I used my Weishi 1900 TimeGrapher against a Witschi Chronoscope S1 (G2)

I have added below the results.
The same watch was used.
One after another so 1/2 an hour between test starts.
Same location, Temperature, Noise level and so on.

Weishi Model 1900

........Rate...Beat...Ampl
DU.....0.0....0.3....265
DD....-0.7....0.3....247
9U....-2.7....0.5....227
6U....-1.8....0.4....227
3U....-1.1....0.2....241

X......-1.3....0.3....241


Witschi Chronoscope S1 (G2)




It is the X readings that I think are the intersting factor in this little experiment.
They have turned out to be very similar


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[CharlesN]

The Chronoscope really does give a lot more information and displays it extremely well

I had the pleasure and opportunity to set the Chronoscope up for this test.
It was very simple and I only needed a little guidance.

I add below 3 more of the pages of information gained during the test …….









The Chronoscope is without doubt the better machine. The level of detailed data you can get is excellent. I guess that's why Watchmakers use them.
But …… You need to be able to understand the information for it to be of any interest or use. A Good understanding of either Mathmatics, Physics or Watchmaking is the only way you are realistically going to comprehend all the data available.

So for the average untrained user the TimeGrapher is very good it gives all the information you are likely to ever want. It’s the choice of many.
The Chronoscope is for those who want to go that next step up “The Ladder” but be warned. It’s a steep ladder.

The learning curve I am on is fascinating. I am finding that I am beginning to appreciate my watches more with everything I am learning.

There are obviously those who think this whole exercise is pointless, But to those who think that I would say that learning something new is always good, and there are no exceptions to that, unless they are illegal.

So... My Conclusion. BOTH machines have their use and BOTH come out as winners. Its an equal tie (Unless you are a watchmaker). So .. take your pick.


PS ... In the positions there are CH and CB. The Chronoscope is Swiss so they use French language ... CH is Dial Up CB is Dial Down.

PPS ... If you have a timing device it is NO EXCUSE to meddle with the insides of your watch unless you are trained and qualified.



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[saxo3]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

PS ... In the positions there are CH and CB. The Chronoscope is Swiss so they use French language ... CH is Dial Up CB is Dial Down.

The far majority of the Swiss population speaks German, including Swiss German, the other official languages are French, Italian, and Romansh.

In canton Bern, the Swiss area where your instrument is build, 86 % speak German and only 11 % French.

CH: cadran haut (dial up)
CB: cadran bas (dial down)

[CharlesN]

It’s high time I got busy. All these observations and data recordings need to be topped up with something described in these two manuals ………




And of course …..




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[CharlesN]

I think I’ll need some more oil !




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[CharlesN]

This morning I finally finished a fresh full week of observations and recordings on my Submariner-Date 126610 LN with a 3235 movement.

Of course I took these readings using my Weishi Timegrapher 1900. Setup picture below.




I have also been using a Witschi S1 (G2) to compare results.
Both sets of results are at the bottom of this thread.


This is the Witschi setup.




As you can see the results from BOTH devices are very similar which proves beyond doubt that either timing device is a very welcome addition in the strive to know how a watch is really behaving and if it is developing a fault of some kind.

The Weishi average over 1 week showed a daily error of -1.1 spd
A beat error of 0.38
And an amplitude of 246
For this mornings Weishi figured please see the last set on the table.

The Witschi showed a daily error today of …
-0.5 spd
Beat error of 0.4 and amplitude of 250

The Witschi however gives far more details and data and is absolutely fascinating to read all the data that it can get from a watch.

These are the weeks Weishi results ……



And of course today’s Witschi report ….



I will post later today some of the other data that is shown on the Witschi for you to see just what is available..


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