My 1963 GMT 1675 with Silver Dial?

[saxo3]

@Erpin: not sure which lume is on this GMT 1675 dial from 1963, do you know? Did you measure your watch with a Geiger-Müller counter before travelling to Switzerland? There were no issues at Airport controls?

Due to the 'nasty' physics properties of Radium-226 and all its isotopes, such old dials still can have much higher radiation levels than the later introduced Tritium dials.

I wonder how Rolex Geneva, and the Swiss watch industry in general, deals with radioactivity of radium-dial timepieces. Radium dust particles (for example) are certainly a problem for a human intervention during a service.

@Erpin: do you have any experience or information from Rolex HQ about their handling (and Swiss legislation) of radium dials? Curious to know since it also has consequences for other vintage watches that someome might want to get serviced in Geneva.

[1675-David]

Originally Posted by Andad

Which major hurdle are you referring to David?

If it was me, the first major hurdle would be being allowed into the building But I'm referring to Rolex receiving the watch for service and not immediately disregarding it as a fake.

[Erpin]

Originally Posted by saxo3

@Erpin: not sure which lume is on this GMT 1675 dial from 1963, do you know? Did you measure your watch with a Geiger-Müller counter before travelling to Switzerland? There were no issues at Airport controls?

Due to the 'nasty' physics properties of Radium-226 and all its isotopes, such old dials still can have much higher radiation levels than the later introduced Tritium dials.

I wonder how Rolex Geneva, and the Swiss watch industry in general, deals with radioactivity of radium-dial timepieces. Radium dust particles (for example) are certainly a problem for a human intervention during a service.

@Erpin: do you have any experience or information from Rolex HQ about their handling (and Swiss legislation) of radium dials? Curious to know since it also has consequences for other vintage watches that someome might want to get serviced in Geneva.

The lume is radium but the less potent on because my dial is the so called exclamation mark but the lume dot below the 6 marker has peeled off already. I also did measure the geiger reading on my watch which confirms its radium.


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[Erpin]

1.33usv/h is the reading i got


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[Erpin]

This is the watch under UV light. When turned off the glow dies after about less than 3 seconds.


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[swish77]

Originally Posted by Erpin

We were not allowed to take pictures too but my staff was able to sneak a few pics and videos.


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Wow, you have a "staff" to accompany you to a watch service? Nice!

[Erpin]

Originally Posted by swish77

Wow, you have a "staff" to accompany you to a watch service? Nice!

I am in Geneva for a United Nations convention which is the reason why i have my chief of staff here with me.


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[Erpin]

I just got a call from Rolex Geneva and was informed that they would need 2-3 more months to analyze and determine the authenticity of the whole watch. I asked if the issue was the dial and they said yes but they also clarified that they are not saying its counterfeit. They just need more time to study it further?


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[Erpin]

I just got a call from Rolex Geneva and was informed that they would need 2-3 more months to analyze and determine the authenticity of the whole watch. I asked if the issue was the dial and they said yes but they also clarified that they are not saying its counterfeit. They just need more time to study it further.


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[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Erpin

I just got a call from Rolex Geneva and was informed that they would need 2-3 more months to analyze and determine the authenticity of the whole watch. I asked if the issue was the dial and they said yes but they also clarified that they are not saying its counterfeit. They just need more time to study it further?

I am not surprised that it takes a few months and it is good news because they are going to use all their methods and tech tools to authenticate your watch extremely carefully. If you receive a service offer from Rolex HQ it will be the best proof of authenticity you can get worldwide. Very likely they know that you post this watch here ...

[Styles Bitchley]

Very interesting story. Thanks for the updates.

[bullies]

Such a cool thread. Best of luck Eric. Hope the next 2-3 months go quickly!

[1watch]

Originally Posted by Erpin

1.33usv/h is the reading i got


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That’s super low. Assuming Geiger was placed directly on crystal I’d expect a little higher, even for exclamation dial.


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[Erpin]

Normally they would communicate through email so i was quite surprised they called me instead through my mobile number and so soon. Hoping for the best.


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[LJubel328]

Originally Posted by Erpin

Btw, i bought today the new Tudor 58 in blue at the Paris AD. Very nice watch to wear.




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It is a great watch. I don't wear mine all too often but it is amazing for the price.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by Erpin

Normally they would communicate through email so i was quite surprised they called me instead through my mobile number and so soon. Hoping for the best.


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Thanks for sharing this very interesting story…best of luck to you.


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[Bladeshot]

Originally Posted by Erpin

Normally they would communicate through email so i was quite surprised they called me instead through my mobile number and so soon. Hoping for the best.


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So interesting to follow this! Thank you for sharing.

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by LJubel328

It is a great watch. I don't wear mine all too often but it is amazing for the price.

Tudor getting there - but that clasp is just way too big for the rest of the Bb58 mid-case imho....so I sold mine within a month of buying it !

[PVR]

On any original dial I have tested with a geiger, the readings are far higher than 1.33. This to me is a bad sign that this was a later relume. Factory Radium was off the charts strong, the radium used in relumed dials was always weaker.

I still stand by my position that this dial is a very old refinished dial that was relumed with recycled radium. I also hope for Eric's sake that I am wrong and he gets the green light from Rolex as original because he will have a very seriously valuable timepiece.

I just dont think its legit. :(

[Erpin]

Isn’t it a fact that exclamation mark dial have less potent radium lumes? I am attaching this article from the Rolex Passion Report about exclamation mark dials as a reference.

https://rolexpassionreport.com/316/t...ing-radiation/


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[LateLearner]

My 1965 “Sorriest Relume Ever” Sub 5513 is a radium relume.

As part of my due diligence, I purchased a Radex RD1503. The RD1503 measures to a maximum of 9.99 micro sieverts per hour. Apparently, you need a more expensive Geiger to measure above 10.0.

Measured directly over the crystal, my radium relume measures 9.96, over a 4-cycle average. Other times, a 4-cycle average never drops below 9.99.

This seems to be just on the fence, at/below 10.0 microsieverts per hour.

In fairness, my Sub had radium added in such large proportions I’ve called it “key lime pie.”

It’s my hope the OP has a real deal dial, and that’s why I asked him earlier in this thread about the Geiger.

For you experts, please share your thoughts on the QUANTITY of radium and it’s related Geiger readings.

We know radium’s half-life is 1,600 years, so it really doesn’t matter much if the dial is 60 years old.

What is the practical result of “recycling” old radium?

Why does the OP’s watch read below 2.0? Could it be the Geiger was offset an inch? With my watch, that drops the reading by about half.


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[daking19]

wonderful post..

[sein und zeit]

Great thread. Thanks to Erpin for letting us follow along on this adventure!

[1watch]

Originally Posted by Erpin

Isn’t it a fact that exclamation mark dial have less potent radium lumes? I am attaching this article from the Rolex Passion Report about exclamation mark dials as a reference.

https://rolexpassionreport.com/316/t...ing-radiation/


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Yes, exclamation dials had a less potent radium mix prior to the transition to tritium with the underline dial. That said, I would expect a reading in at least the higher single digits if the counter is placed correctly over the crystal. As a side note, the less expensive Radex counters that max out at 9.99 aren’t very useful for accurate readings on ‘60 and earlier radium dials imo.


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[LateLearner]

Originally Posted by 1watch

Yes, exclamation dials had a less potent radium mix prior to the transition to tritium with the underline dial. That said, I would expect a reading in at least the higher single digits if the counter is placed correctly over the crystal. As a side note, the less expensive Radex counters that max out at 9.99 aren’t very useful for accurate readings on ‘60 and earlier radium dials imo.


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As a newbie, nothing I post is meant to be taken as guidance—only as my introductory experiences.

The next level Geiger above a Radex RD1530, appears to be more than $200, some much more expensive.

The RD1530 maxes out at 9.99. Therefore, older watches with significant radium should be measured with a better, and more expensive Geiger.

I purchased the cheapest Geiger, merely to determine whether my relumed 1965 5513 was tritium or radium. Sadly, it’s radium.

Also, taking different readings on video, I discovered how slight distances from the crystal affect the readings.

For me, the owner of an inherited 1965 Sub 5513 with (unfortunately) a radium relume, the discussion about Geiger readings on this forum is underrepresented.

It’s my hope I can help generate discussion and shared knowledge about radium.

I’d like to know what Geiger devices are used when posting about microsieverts per hour readings.

They are still out there.


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[LateLearner]

As previously posted, I am the same member as III65SUB5513, on VRF.

My threads on my radium relume, “Sorriest Relume Ever” and “Radium Relume” discuss a newbie’s journey learning about an inherited heirloom.

So far, I haven’t been able to edit my user name to be the same on each forum.

In the meantime, for you radium experts, please share links, experiences, etc on the transition (radium to tritium) years.


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[LateLearner]

Originally Posted by Erpin

Serial is 876xxx


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Erpin,

Best of luck.


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[Erpin]

Thanks. I do believe i have a legit dial and so does some of the known experts. The master technician who initially inspected the watch told me that the dial looks original but he stated that they don’t have a silver dial on their data base so it must be a special order as far as he is concerned. If he felt that the dial is a counterfeit, he would have rejected the watch already. Thats how strict the heritage department is and for them to call me after a week to ask for more time means only that they want to research more how this dial came about.


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[PVR]

Ok, since I hate being wrong and hate being questioned, I went into my archives to look at other dials from this era. The serial is consistent with a 1962 watch and the exclamation point also puts the dial at 1962. So, I searched my archives and online and compared the print of the silver dial to the print of all other Gilt exclamation point dials I could find.

I stand behind this dial being refinished and relumed with weaker lume. I learned that exclamation point lume is weaker than earlier lume, but it still reads higher than Erpins Watch. I dont want to piss on the parade, but we are all here to learn and investigate so thats what I did.

Erpins dial has a crown/coronet that is nothing like any other example. The hole/opening on the bottom of the crown is much larger and open, compared to other printed dials that have a closed smaller hole.

in addition to that the OYSTER PERPETUAL writing below Rolex should not have any serifs in the fonts. In Erpins watch OYSTER PERPETUAL is written in Serif font. Didn't exist on any other 1675 Gilt dial from that era.

The "O" in rolex should also be slanted on an angle which it isn't on Erpins dial.
The "U" in the final word PERPETUAL should be further Left and on Erpins dial it lines up directly under the "X" in Rolex, which is incorrect.

I see other differences too with spacing and alignment, but this should be enough to show its not just a silver dial, its a completely different screen of text and fonts.

[TuRo]

Interesting, BUT, I'll have a sportsman's bet, that it is 100% legit original factory supplied dial when RSC get back to him.