32xx movement problem poll and data thread

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

I've wondered the same thing about the slot in the plastic which would seem to accommodate a crown. But I've also tested mine both ways and the results are the same. I have tape over the metal side so I don't need any cloths.

Here's my explanation: this machine is quite simple. It has a microphone to listen to your watch ticking. As long as it can hear the ticks, it really doesn't matter which direction the watch is facing. If your particular watch insulates the sound significantly, then you may need to put the crown against the mic directly. But if it does not, orientation shouldn't matter. If the orientation being used were actually providing sound problems, you should see "drop outs" in the waveform where it couldn't hear properly for a time (and of course if it couldn't hear at all, you'd never get a graph to begin with).

I would therefore argue that if you are getting smooth lines on your screen, it can hear just fine. I can think of no possible way where having the watch rotated 180 degrees would somehow add or subtract 20 degrees to your amplitude yet everything else would look good.

Yeah I agree with this. If the line is clean with no interference the readings are fine.


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[dannyp]

So here’s an odd one: a few days ago I decided my Explorer has chalked up too much extra time. Went to set and realized it was -30, not +30 (total), making me think I had let its PR deplete too much. Wound. Set. Wore. So, over the past few days, it seems to be a consistent -1/day, whereas it has been +1/day per much since new. Even wound it again yesterday.

I have a theory, and an curious if it’s plausible: watch gains time as PR getting lower, so if I wear every other day it gains as it had been, but if I keep it topped up, it loses 1/day. Or is it common to all a sudden go from +1 to-1 for no real reason?

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by dannyp

So here’s an odd one: a few days ago I decided my Explorer has chalked up too much extra time. Went to set and realized it was -30, not +30 (total), making me think I had let its PR deplete too much. Wound. Set. Wore. So, over the past few days, it seems to be a consistent -1/day, whereas it has been +1/day per much since new. Even wound it again yesterday.

I have a theory, and an curious if it’s plausible: watch gains time as PR getting lower, so if I wear every other day it gains as it had been, but if I keep it topped up, it loses 1/day. Or is it common to all a sudden go from +1 to-1 for no real reason?

Well to your first point, all of my healthy watches seem to gain time when running out of PR esp if i leave them resting in the watch box. My understanding is as the PR drops the amplitude drops and the ticks become slightly quicker as a result.

To your second point, I have a exp 1 who started off it's life at about +1 and started to run -2 on the wrist. Fearing the movement was showing the amplitude issue i chucked it on my timegrapher and it's showing stupid high amplitude which is what the last 20 posts on this thread are about sans the red text on the seadweller going missing. I'm not 100% what the hell is going on with my exp 1 but at the moment it's running slower than before but with a stupid high amplitude. I'm monitoring and will report back if anything weird happens from this point.

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by amanbra

Well to your first point, all of my healthy watches seem to gain time when running out of PR esp if i leave them resting in the watch box. My understanding is as the PR drops the amplitude drops and the ticks become slightly quicker as a result.

To your second point, I have a exp 1 who started off it's life at about +1 and started to run -2 on the wrist. Fearing the movement was showing the amplitude issue i chucked it on my timegrapher and it's showing stupid high amplitude which is what the last 20 posts on this thread are about sans the red text on the seadweller going missing. I'm not 100% what the hell is going on with my exp 1 but at the moment it's running slower than before but with a stupid high amplitude. I'm monitoring and will report back if anything weird happens from this point.

Thanks. Still trying to fully understand what all of these different measurements mean... As I understand it, amplitude is the measurement of how well things inside are "moving" (like gauging the health of one's joints or arteries)? The higher the amplitude, the better they are moving around as they should.

However, sounds like this has little to do with timekeeping, and that going from fast to slow doesn't indicate that things aren't functioning as they should?

The other thing I'm wondering: Since I spend much of my day sitting, do I need to consider not only the lack of motion, but also the position of my wrist? It's actually pretty rare for my wrist to be flat on my desk, with the watch facing crystal-up. If I'm typing, it's on its side, 6:00 facing up. On a call, either it'll be hanging down, with crown-down, or I'll be chin-on-fist and it'll be crown-up.

I'll be very interested in hearing what you report back, but it sounds like, particularly within the +/- 2sec range, what matters is consistency?

Crap, maybe I now need to blow money on a timegrapher, since I care way too much about the "why" as opposed to simply enjoying the fact that I have a mechanical watch that keeps time within a second or two a day .

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by dannyp

Thanks. Still trying to fully understand what all of these different measurements mean...

I just sent you a pm with literature for some basic understanding of mechanical movements and measurement techniques. I hope that helps.

[aaceofspades]

I stumbled onto this thread looking for information about the 3235. I've had accuracy and gear grinding in the winding position on my DJ41 for the last year. Two repairs later, neither is corrected. Is a repair not possible with some of these movements?

Others told me to bypass the AD and send it directly to RSC for the third try. Done today.

Since you guys seem to have a very deep interest in this movement, can you tell me if some are just plain defective? Is there a design or manufacturing flaw with the 3235? How many times will Rolex try to repair it before just replacing it? (If ever). Thanks.

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by aaceofspades

I stumbled onto this thread looking for information about the 3235. I've had accuracy and gear grinding in the winding position on my DJ41 for the last year. Two repairs later, neither is corrected. Is a repair not possible with some of these movements?

Others told me to bypass the AD and send it directly to RSC for the third try. Done today.

Since you guys seem to have a very deep interest in this movement, can you tell me if some are just plain defective? Is there a design or manufacturing flaw with the 3235? How many times will Rolex try to repair it before just replacing it? (If ever). Thanks.

Yeah this thread is full of watch geeks who have had this issue affect them. For me if Rolex can't fix my DJ36 on the 2nd attempt I'll be selling it even though it's a sentimental watch.

We're not 100% sure there is a fix yet but the newer 3235s appear to be doing better.

also curiously Rolex updated the lift angle from 55 to 53 last year. You cannot tell me Rolex and their engineers calculated the lift angle wrong the first time they did the math so for me it's a sign they updated something. That's what we know so far.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by amanbra

Well to your first point, all of my healthy watches seem to gain time when running out of PR esp if i leave them resting in the watch box. My understanding is as the PR drops the amplitude drops and the ticks become slightly quicker as a result.

To your second point, I have a exp 1 who started off it's life at about +1 and started to run -2 on the wrist. Fearing the movement was showing the amplitude issue i chucked it on my timegrapher and it's showing stupid high amplitude which is what the last 20 posts on this thread are about sans the red text on the seadweller going missing. I'm not 100% what the hell is going on with my exp 1 but at the moment it's running slower than before but with a stupid high amplitude. I'm monitoring and will report back if anything weird happens from this point.

It could be your machine.
A lot of things made in that place which shall remain nameless don't necessarily work as they should.
Have you checked a watch that is known to be good on it?
Anything with a freshly serviced 31xx movement should be reasonable to use as a reference and a good place to start. Of course it doesn't have to be a Rolex either

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by Dirt

It could be your machine.
A lot of things made in that place which shall remain nameless don't necessarily work as they should.
Have you checked a watch that is known to be good on it?
Anything with a freshly serviced 31xx movement should be reasonable to use as a reference and a good place to start. Of course it doesn't have to be a Rolex either

Yeah I have, my new sub, also i'm cross checking results from the grapher to watchtracker app and the two reconcile. The whole reason i chucked it on the grapher is because watchtracker showed a change, i don't regularly use my grapher as it's packed away in the attic.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by aaceofspades

I stumbled onto this thread looking for information about the 3235. I've had accuracy and gear grinding in the winding position on my DJ41 for the last year. Two repairs later, neither is corrected. Is a repair not possible with some of these movements?

Others told me to bypass the AD and send it directly to RSC for the third try. Done today.

Since you guys seem to have a very deep interest in this movement, can you tell me if some are just plain defective? Is there a design or manufacturing flaw with the 3235? How many times will Rolex try to repair it before just replacing it? (If ever). Thanks.

You're asking questions that nobody here is remotely qualified to answer.
Sorry, but thems the facts
You may wish to write a very nicely worded letter to the Mothership
That's been proven to work a treat as long as you are clear about how these issues are affecting you and that you are eager to place it in their hands to put it right. A trip to Geneva at their behest for your watch would boost street cred enormously and add exponentially to your ownership experience
Naturally you will have to await the outcome of your current step

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by amanbra

Yeah I have, my new sub, also i'm cross checking results from the grapher to watchtracker app and the two reconcile. The whole reason i chucked it on the grapher is because watchtracker showed a change, i don't regularly use my grapher as it's packed away in the attic.

Leave it out and ready to go on the kitchen bench
I hope it's working ok.
It would be unfortunate if it's a dud that's making you chase your tail

[aaceofspades]

Originally Posted by amanbra

We're not 100% sure there is a fix yet but the newer 3235s appear to be doing better.
.

This sentence was an unpleasant surprise. I don't have hours to sift everything here but I did come across more than one unhappy complaint about this movement.

Perhaps if they have modified it, they'll just replace mine, after two failed attempts to repair it. From what I'm seeing here, there is or was a known problem.

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by aaceofspades

This sentence was an unpleasant surprise. I don't have hours to sift everything here but I did come across more than one unhappy complaint about this movement.

Perhaps if they have modified it, they'll just replace mine, after two failed attempts to repair it. From what I'm seeing here, there is or was a known problem.

Rolex have a track record of replacing problem components to the newer ones overtime without even letting you know they're doing it. I would bet that if there is a known fix they will apply it to your movement at the time of service.

[aaceofspades]

Originally Posted by Dirt

You're asking questions that nobody here is remotely qualified to answer.
Sorry, but thems the facts
You may wish to write a very nicely worded letter to the Mothership
That's been proven to work a treat as long as you are clear about how these issues are affecting you and that you are eager to place it in their hands to put it right. A trip to Geneva at their behest for your watch would boost street cred enormously and add exponentially to your ownership experience
Naturally you will have to await the outcome of your current step

I had these same exact thoughts but settled on sending it to Dallas RSC. Fingers crossed.

I wonder what the display cases look like on the mothership? Filled with Daytonas and subs? Might be worth a trip

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by amanbra

Rolex have a track record of replacing problem components to the newer ones overtime without even letting you know they're doing it. I would bet that if there is a known fix they will apply it to your movement at the time of service.

This was the SOP for the 3186 as I recall.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by dannyp

So here’s an odd one: a few days ago I decided my Explorer has chalked up too much extra time. Went to set and realized it was -30, not +30 (total), making me think I had let its PR deplete too much. Wound. Set. Wore. So, over the past few days, it seems to be a consistent -1/day, whereas it has been +1/day per much since new. Even wound it again yesterday.

I have a theory, and an curious if it’s plausible: watch gains time as PR getting lower, so if I wear every other day it gains as it had been, but if I keep it topped up, it loses 1/day. Or is it common to all a sudden go from +1 to-1 for no real reason?

Your theory is indeed what CAN and does happen:

(1) A fully wound (healthy) caliber with max. PR can lose about 1-2 s/d during wearing at daytime.

(2) Placing this movement at rest, e.g. overnnight, it can gain back about 1-2 s/d while the PR decreases.

The given numbers (1-2 s/d) depend on wrist wearing pattern, watch position (DU, DD, 3U, 6U, 9U) at rest, and how many hours per day the watch is worn.

I have observed this movement behaviour (1) + (2) for several 31xx and 32xx watches. But all this depends much on the specific movement and its regulation. It is not a general feature! You can only find out by try and error, or using a timegrapher.

If you understand this effect quantitatively, then you can compensate losing/gaining and keep your watch close to perfect timekeeping. Monitoring with a WatchTracker app helps a lot and is very easy.

[sheldonsmith]

Originally Posted by dannyp

This was the SOP for the 3186 as I recall.

Yes, correct. Mine was done locally. Images and verbiage are here: https://minus4plus6.com/216570.php#service

-Sheldon

[CharlesN]

The subject of the 32xx movement giving problem to some and not others seems to have died down quite a bit of recent months.

That can be explained in a few possible ways…

- People just dont care.
- People dont measure.
- People are bored.
- Rolex have fixed the problem.
- The problem never existed.
- Things just magically got better.

I can not say which of the above possibilities it is as no one has any proof at all on any of those possibilities.

I can however only point to the proven method of measuring the precision and accuracy of a watch. Please don’t get confused, precision and accuracy are NOT the same.

Another member and i have been doing several tests over the past few months and have been showing our results in this forum and thread for several months.

Thankfully, and i am very delighted to see this, some others have going in with their measurements and observations.

This all leads to a greater understanding of what is really happening and what problems are manifesting.

There clearly has been a problem with many Rolex watches with the newer 32xx movements.

Personally I have 2 Rolex watches both with the newer 32xx movements.
I have a Submariner-date (126610LN) bought new in late September 2020.
I also have an Explorer II (226570 White dial) bought new late May 2021.

For my sake both watches have been running very well since they were purchased.
0n the watches and making reports and graphs etc having measured using a combination of methods and equipment.
Human error and reaction time have also been removed from the results. The methods for that are for posting in a detailed separate long thread.

I will continue with some more measurements under different conditions to see what changes, if any, occur.

That still leaves me with the question of do Gravity and g-force have an effect on the amplitude and timekeeping of a watch.

The g-force or gravitational acceleration effect with the equation of 9.81 m/s^2 has to be considered

There are not many easily accessible methods for reproducing these forces. It is highly unlikely that any of the formula One teams are about to lend me a car.
The same can probably be said for both NASA or Amazon’s Blue Origin lending me one of their rockets.

Another possibility that is far more feasible is, as some of you show yourselves wearing your watches whilst sitting in your sports cars (Mostly Porsche brand), perhaps you can do some measurements whilst accelerating form 0 to 100 (It does not matter if the speed it Imperial (MPH) or Metric (KPH).

Now this all brings me on to another question …
Why does nobody seem to answer some questions posed.

There was a post made a few days ago about the Red text on a Rolex Sea-Dweller (126600) wearing away.

The post in question is no 2000 in this very thread.

The text is under the crystal so could not have been rubbed by the owner.

What could have occurred ? I am intrigued as could this be something to do with the 3235 movement somehow ?

This is the photo of the watch and dial. What are your conclusions ?





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[HiBoost]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

The subject of the 32xx movement giving problem to some and not others seems to have died down quite a bit of recent months.

That can be explained in a few possible ways…

- People just dont care.
- People dont measure.
- People are bored.
- Rolex have fixed the problem.
- The problem never existed.
- Things just magically got better.

I can not say which of the above possibilities it is as no one has any proof at all on any of those possibilities.

I can however only point to the proven method of measuring the precision and accuracy of a watch. Please don’t get confused, precision and accuracy are NOT the same.

Another member and i have been doing several tests over the past few months and have been showing our results in this forum and thread for several months.

Thankfully, and i am very delighted to see this, some others have going in with their measurements and observations.

This all leads to a greater understanding of what is really happening and what problems are manifesting.

There clearly has been a problem with many Rolex watches with the newer 32xx movements.

Personally I have 2 Rolex watches both with the newer 32xx movements.
I have a Submariner-date (126610LN) bought new in late September 2020.
I also have an Explorer II (226570 White dial) bought new late May 2021.

For my sake both watches have been running very well since they were purchased.
0n the watches and making reports and graphs etc having measured using a combination of methods and equipment.
Human error and reaction time have also been removed from the results. The methods for that are for posting in a detailed separate long thread.

I will continue with some more measurements under different conditions to see what changes, if any, occur.

That still leaves me with the question of do Gravity and g-force have an effect on the amplitude and timekeeping of a watch.

The g-force or gravitational acceleration effect with the equation of 9.81 m/s^2 has to be considered

There are not many easily accessible methods for reproducing these forces. It is highly unlikely that any of the formula One teams are about to lend me a car.
The same can probably be said for both NASA or Amazon’s Blue Origin lending me one of their rockets.

Another possibility that is far more feasible is, as some of you show yourselves wearing your watches whilst sitting in your sports cars (Mostly Porsche brand), perhaps you can do some measurements whilst accelerating form 0 to 100 (It does not matter if the speed it Imperial (MPH) or Metric (KPH).

Now this all brings me on to another question …
Why does nobody seem to answer some questions posed.

There was a post made a few days ago about the Red text on a Rolex Sea-Dweller (126600) wearing away.

The post in question is no 2000 in this very thread.

The text is under the crystal so could not have been rubbed by the owner.

What could have occurred ? I am intrigued as could this be something to do with the 3235 movement somehow ?

This is the photo of the watch and dial. What are your conclusions ?

I'll be honest, I have no idea where you are going with these posts. Are you trolling? Are you serious? I took saxo's post to be some kind of joke that I didn't fully grasp. Best I could come up with was he was basically just seeing if anybody was paying attention. IF text actually fell off the dial, why not make that a new thread? Has nothing to do with the movement. But saxo is too smart to be asking how it could be repaired, this makes no sense either. Clearly in this case a new dial would be required.

But now you come along bringing it up again and I'm scratching my head thinking, ok, so what am I missing now?

[Driver8]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

I took saxo's post to be some kind of joke that I didn't fully grasp. Best I could come up with was he was basically just seeing if anybody was paying attention. IF text actually fell off the dial, why not make that a new thread? Has nothing to do with the movement. But saxo is too smart to be asking how it could be repaired, this makes no sense either. Clearly in this case a new dial would be required.

But now you come along bringing it up again and I'm scratching my head thinking, ok, so what am I missing now?

I must be honest but I'm with you on that! I assumed (and still do assume) it was joke...

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

now you come along bringing it up again and I'm scratching my head thinking, ok, so what am I missing now?

Yes, I think i do agree a new thread should have been made at the time about the missing red writing on the dial of saxo3's Sea-Dweller.

I think there may have been just a little tongue in cheek involved.

As you know or may have noticed saxo3 and I hang about this thread almost exclusively. Its almost "Our home:" now. (No not literally).

Yes, you are correct, Saxo3 is smart and is not "dumb" in any way. In fact its very much to the contrary.

Both saxo3 and I do know what happened to make the red writing disappear. We were "Teasing" a little. Photoshop or similar is NOT involved at all. The writing went purely with natural causes.

Don't scratch your head .. I dont do that as i get splinters too often.

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by Driver8

I must be honest but I'm with you on that! I assumed (and still do assume) it was joke...

It was NOT a joke .... The red writing did disappear but all by natural causes.

I am sure it can return.

Photoshop or similar was NOT involved in any way.

[OG1982]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

It was NOT a joke .... The red writing did disappear but all by natural causes.

I am sure it can return.

Photoshop or similar was NOT involved in any way.

Surely it was the filter used or the lighting at the time the picture was taken, for some reason made it look like the red text wasn't there?

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Your theory is indeed what CAN and does happen:

(1) A fully wound (healthy) caliber with max. PR can lose about 1-2 s/d during wearing at daytime.

(2) Placing this movement at rest, e.g. overnnight, it can gain back about 1-2 s/d while the PR decreases.

The given numbers (1-2 s/d) depend on wrist wearing pattern, watch position (DU, DD, 3U, 6U, 9U) at rest, and how many hours per day the watch is worn.

I have observed this movement behaviour (1) + (2) for several 31xx and 32xx watches. But all this depends much on the specific movement and its regulation. It is not a general feature! You can only find out by try and error, or using a timegrapher.

If you understand this effect quantitatively, then you can compensate losing/gaining and keep your watch close to perfect timekeeping. Monitoring with a WatchTracker app helps a lot and is very easy.

Well, now I'm getting a little concerned...

After the post-winding time loss, I wore the watch every day for a few days, instead of every other. Gradually, the time loss dissipated and got closer to zero (gaining back about a second a day). Yesterday I didn't wear the watch. Today I put it back on, and it's roughly +2.5 (but was -1.5 when I took it off on Sunday night).

When I store it, granted, it's dial-up but this is how I've always kept it at night.

Reading through this thread, it seems that the issues have been more pervasive with the earliest 3235 movements, but I'm reaching the six month mark with mine, which I also seem to recall being when some of these popped up.

Does anyone know whether there were specific component changes made to the movement at some point, and whether it was all 32xx or just some?

[Onequik135i]

No issues to date since picking it up new at the AD in April of this year. Every time I run mine on the Ace Timegrapher the amplitude does run 258 or so last I recall but other than that the time keeping is spectacular overall.

[Driver8]

Originally Posted by dannyp

Well, now I'm getting a little concerned...

After the post-winding time loss, I wore the watch every day for a few days, instead of every other. Gradually, the time loss dissipated and got closer to zero (gaining back about a second a day). Yesterday I didn't wear the watch. Today I put it back on, and it's roughly +2.5 (but was -1.5 when I took it off on Sunday night).

When I store it, granted, it's dial-up but this is how I've always kept it at night.

Reading through this thread, it seems that the issues have been more pervasive with the earliest 3235 movements, but I'm reaching the six month mark with mine, which I also seem to recall being when some of these popped up.

Does anyone know whether there were specific component changes made to the movement at some point, and whether it was all 32xx or just some?

As far as I know (or rather as far as we've been informed so far by Bas or others in the know) there have been no updated components since the 32xx was introduced. I'm more than happy to be corrected on that if that's not the case.

I'm not sure if the issue is endemic to just earlier movements or not as most of the time the issue seems to come along between 6 and 18 months if it's going to happen at all. My problematic SD43 was from 2019, so not one of the earliest 3235's out there.

All we can say from the poll on this thread is that it's been ticking over slowly and the numbers still show around 25% of respondees experiencing the issue. i.e. the percentage has not started to drop yet, which you'd expect if it was resolved and more people were responding with no issues. I admit a poll here is not exactly scientific, but it gives an indication IMO.

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by Ollie1982

Surely it was the filter used or the lighting at the time the picture was taken, for some reason made it look like the red text wasn't there?

Close ……. But no cigar quite yet.

The clue was given with the original post of the photo (#2000)

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by dannyp

Well, now I'm getting a little concerned...

After the post-winding time loss, I wore the watch every day for a few days, instead of every other. Gradually, the time loss dissipated and got closer to zero (gaining back about a second a day). Yesterday I didn't wear the watch. Today I put it back on, and it's roughly +2.5 (but was -1.5 when I took it off on Sunday night).

When I store it, granted, it's dial-up but this is how I've always kept it at night.

It seems that you might not have understood what I described in post 2026.

In my view, collecting and sharing your data is mandatory, otherwise I can't help.

I can only provide help if you start to collect some measurement data (numbers), which you collect during a few days, maybe a week or two.

You do not necessarily need a timegrapher, but it would be indeed helpful.

I suggest you monitor your watch timekeeping using a smartphone app (e.g. WatchTracker) or the classical way using a pen with paper.

- Start with full winding your movement
- Measure from the start the timekeeping, 2x per day is ok
- Wear the watch every day
- During nights put it at rest always in the same position, e.g. with dial up
- Do not wind the movement for two weeks
- Report the results (data) here.

This way you will understand yourself how the movement reacts during wearing (days) and what it does at rest (nights).

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

Close ……. But no cigar quite yet.

The clue was given with the original post of the photo (#2000)

Photo taken underwater, which caused some kind of illusion?

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by saxo3

It seems that you might not have understood what I described in post 2026.

In my view, collecting and sharing your data is mandatory, otherwise I can't help.

I can only provide help if you start to collect some measurement data (numbers), which you collect during a few days, maybe a week or two.

You do not necessarily need a timegrapher, but it would be indeed helpful.

I suggest you monitor your watch timekeeping using a smartphone app (e.g. WatchTracker) or the classical way using a pen with paper.

- Start with full winding your movement
- Measure from the start the timekeeping, 2x per day is ok
- Wear the watch every day
- During nights put it at rest always in the same position, e.g. with dial up
- Do not wind the movement for two weeks
- Report the results (data) here.

This way you will understand yourself how the movement reacts during wearing (days) and what it does at rest (nights).

Yes, I must have missed something, since these directions are perfectly clear !

I'll probably wait another ten days or so, since I'll have to reset the time at the end of the month and don't want to mess with the "experiment" by hacking the watch.

Will also be interesting to try an additional experiment whereby I repeat, but wear the watch every other day.