Which Independents Are You Watching?

[huydoan]

Originally Posted by TopSlice

How does it wear in terms of size? It’s 41mm but lugs look compact so should wear well I assume?
It’s interesting what might happen with this brand as FP Journe has given his support.


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Im interested in this brand. How did FPJ give support to it?


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[INC]

Otsuka Lotec:

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by TopSlice

How does it wear in terms of size? It’s 41mm but lugs look compact so should wear well I assume?
It’s interesting what might happen with this brand as FP Journe has given his support.


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Yeah to your point it wears like 40. Definitely not oversized. The watch is also so supple and light that you forget it’s on the wrist. Very comfortable.


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[djnick]

Originally Posted by INC

Otsuka Lotec:

they don't ship outside of japan so impossible to get. Even if you are in Japan they do raffles like MB&F. Chances are low unless you want to pay 5x on resale when they do pop up

[Ichiran]

The new 39mm pair of Tourbillon Atelier by Remy Cools is utterly irresistible. Slimmer too at 12mm.

[FrugalGreubel]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

The new 39mm pair of Tourbillon Atelier by Remy Cools is utterly irresistible. Slimmer too at 12mm.

Very nice looking watch. Would love to see one in person one day.

[Derpy33]

been eyeing Konstantin Chaykin watches forever, finally took the plunge --couldn't pass up a watch that brings my nephews so much joy

[njlam]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

^^^+1

i'll humbly add Torsti Laine. For well under $15k YOU can customize the dial decoration AND color(s) to YOUR liking, YOU can choose the hands, YOU can choose the dial numerals, YOU can choose the moment decoration....

And yes, the dial is handmade using a rose machine, it IS NOT stamped.

Imho you owe it to yourself to see his Instagram page, as there are A LOT of options...

https://www.instagram.com/laine_watches/



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Arrives today. Torsti is a joy to work with.


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[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by njlam

Arrives today. Torsti is a joy to work with.

Wow wow wow! Major congrats, nice design YOU spec'ed too

With so many others whining about ADs and ____, when for a very reasonable ask you can spec / design your own custom build from Laine and enjoy.

[njlam]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Wow wow wow! Major congrats, nice design YOU spec'ed too

With so many others whining about ADs and ____, when for a very reasonable ask you can spec / design your own custom build from Laine and enjoy.

YES. Instead of waiting/whining, I have just moved to more interesting watches. It was fun to come to this design and I have others in mind for future acquisitions. This one is the V38 with the very cool micro rotor. I am still tempted to get the GG3 with the triple guiloche in blue that has become a Laine standard.

[njlam]

Originally Posted by llngoc

The only downside with Laine is the wait time now. Probably too many people discussed it and now it is very popular.

FYI, I ordered mine in late April (2024) and it is arriving today.

[WatchEater666]

bump

[ChetBaker]

I have a small collection of Patek, Rolex, a VC CdV, a Moser Perpetual and a LF Origin. Thinking about that next step into independent watchmaking. With some consolidation/trades I would have a budget of approx 50k. My criteria are:

1. 38-40mm and 47-49mm l2l
2. High degree of manual finishing on movement, dial and case
3. The smaller the production the better
4. Bonus points for interesting case design

Generally I favour finishing over complications for this watch. An obvious option would be to try and get on the list for an FPJ CS but that does not meet the manual finishing criterion. A microrotor LF would tick all but I prefer to add a new brand rather than duplicate. A Grönefeld Principia from my native The Netherlands would be cool but order books are closed.

I LOVE niche stuff like Petermann Bedat, Simon Brette, Fabian Pellet etc but with my budget that is realistically beyond reach.

Any other independents you can recommend?

[GB-man]

When I read your wants and needs I was thinking about moritz grossman.

I don’t put finishing as high as you but if I did and around that range they are pretty darn nice.

[FrugalGreubel]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

I have a small collection of Patek, Rolex, a VC CdV, a Moser Perpetual and a LF Origin. Thinking about that next step into independent watchmaking. With some consolidation/trades I would have a budget of approx 50k. My criteria are:

1. 38-40mm and 47-49mm l2l
2. High degree of manual finishing on movement, dial and case
3. The smaller the production the better
4. Bonus points for interesting case design

Generally I favour finishing over complications for this watch. An obvious option would be to try and get on the list for an FPJ CS but that does not meet the manual finishing criterion. A microrotor LF would tick all but I prefer to add a new brand rather than duplicate. A Grönefeld Principia from my native The Netherlands would be cool but order books are closed.

I LOVE niche stuff like Petermann Bedat, Simon Brette, Fabian Pellet etc but with my budget that is realistically beyond reach.

Any other independents you can recommend?

I’d double check with a local AD about the Principia. I was able to get mine cause of pure luck. A customer cancelled their order and it was just good timing on my end. It took about 6 months for delivery which was not bad. I also feel like orders may open up again soon but that’s pure speculation on my end.

[GB-man]

Also unless you’re completely opposed to secondary they are very available for well under MSRP.

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

I have a small collection of Patek, Rolex, a VC CdV, a Moser Perpetual and a LF Origin. Thinking about that next step into independent watchmaking. With some consolidation/trades I would have a budget of approx 50k. My criteria are:

1. 38-40mm and 47-49mm l2l
2. High degree of manual finishing on movement, dial and case
3. The smaller the production the better
4. Bonus points for interesting case design

Generally I favour finishing over complications for this watch. An obvious option would be to try and get on the list for an FPJ CS but that does not meet the manual finishing criterion. A microrotor LF would tick all but I prefer to add a new brand rather than duplicate. A Grönefeld Principia from my native The Netherlands would be cool but order books are closed.

I LOVE niche stuff like Petermann Bedat, Simon Brette, Fabian Pellet etc but with my budget that is realistically beyond reach.

Any other independents you can recommend?

If you're cool with used, then you can easily find a "like new" Principia below ~$38k USD. Maybe even lower now, but they have dropped a lot on secondary. From ~$45k at peak.


If USD, I always find the ~$50k price point is kinda weird. It's just barely short of being able to get god tier pieces like the Gauthier Microinsight used (around ~$70k) and MB&F LM101 used (~$60k - $65k).

Maybe worth saving a bit more as the options open up a lot with just another ~$10k - $20k?

Armin Strom's Gravity Equal Force is 41mm, but meets your criteria. For ~$20k new, I can't think of any other new watches that come close for the value you get? It's a proprietary in-house movement, has a hidden PR, extensive hand finishing, and available customized.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

I LOVE niche stuff like Petermann Bedat, Simon Brette, Fabian Pellet etc but with my budget that is realistically beyond reach.

Simon is allocating his stainless steel chronomètre artisans now. As it is steel the pricing might be interesting. Pls contact him. His watch ticks all your boxes plus more.

[FrugalGreubel]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

If you're cool with used, then you can easily find a "like new" Principia below ~$38k USD. Maybe even lower now, but they have dropped a lot on secondary. From ~$45k at peak.


If USD, I always find the ~$50k price point is kinda weird. It's just barely short of being able to get god tier pieces like the Gauthier Microinsight used (around ~$70k) and MB&F LM101 used (~$60k - $65k).

Maybe worth saving a bit more as the options open up a lot with just another ~$10k - $20k?

Armin Strom's Gravity Equal Force is 41mm, but meets your criteria. For ~$20k new, I can't think of any other new watches that come close for the value you get? It's a proprietary in-house movement, has a hidden PR, extensive hand finishing, and available customized.

I agree about considering pre-owned for the Principia. There are definitely great deals to be made there.

You’re right about the 50K range with watches. It’s such a tough spot. I think it’s always worth saving more and going for the watches in the 70K range if possible but that’s way easier said than done.

I know it’s so cliche to say it but Armin Storm is underrated. I’m annoyed I don’t own one myself.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Simon Brette is allocating his stainless steel chronomètre artisans now. As it is steel the pricing might be interesting. Pls contact him. His watch ticks all your boxes plus more.

I think the steel one is 65000CHF? Like the idea of having two different color dials to choose from though.

[FrugalGreubel]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Simon is allocating his stainless steel chronomètre artisans now. As it is steel the pricing might be interesting. Pls contact him. His watch ticks all your boxes plus more.

I’ve been very vocal about my interest and support of this brand. As someone who hopes to get one of his watches I’d also encourage you to try and see if this is possible for you. I’ve yet to see one in person but all the photos and videos are just jaw dropping. I also think the price is very fair.

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by FrugalGreubel

I’ve been very vocal about my interest and support of this brand. As someone who hopes to get one of his watches I’d also encourage you to try and see if this is possible for you. I’ve yet to see one in person but all the photos and videos are just jaw dropping. I also think the price is very fair.

They are nice. I handled a friends recently. Definitely just as nicely finished as 6 figure pieces.

[ts3]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

I have a small collection of Patek, Rolex, a VC CdV, a Moser Perpetual and a LF Origin. Thinking about that next step into independent watchmaking. With some consolidation/trades I would have a budget of approx 50k. My criteria are:

1. 38-40mm and 47-49mm l2l
2. High degree of manual finishing on movement, dial and case
3. The smaller the production the better
4. Bonus points for interesting case design

Generally I favour finishing over complications for this watch. An obvious option would be to try and get on the list for an FPJ CS but that does not meet the manual finishing criterion. A microrotor LF would tick all but I prefer to add a new brand rather than duplicate. A Grönefeld Principia from my native The Netherlands would be cool but order books are closed.

I LOVE niche stuff like Petermann Bedat, Simon Brette, Fabian Pellet etc but with my budget that is realistically beyond reach.

Any other independents you can recommend?

The RG C seems to come close and is within budget. The biggest issue might be the 41mm size but lug to lug is 49.5mm with the rubber strap and less for the bracelet variant. I can't get the black strap editions out of my head for long and yet I am not sure if I could live with the dial design. Intriguing but also quite odd. Also not 100% convinced by the bezel design and not a fan of the current openworked variant.

[ChetBaker]

Thanks so much for the feedback gents. On Grossmann I came very close to acquiring a steel Tremblage just a couple of weeks ago but decided against it because of the fairly large l2l of 50mm, long lugs and relatively simple case shape. The new smaller Tefnuts are nice though. I have looked at Armin Strom many times before and the finishing looks fantastic, especially at the price point which is very reasonable. I’m undecided on the aesthetic so far, may be it’s a little techincal and angular for my liking. We do an AD in the Netherlands so it should be easy to try a GEF on. Grönefeld Principia is high on the list and market prices have come down to RRP. I prefer to work with them direct and I’m on the “list” for when orders open up again. I can contact them again to see if there’s an opportunity there as I really like their finishing and cases. On Simon Brette - the answer in this collecting hobby of course is always to shoot for the stars. I cannot find any info on his Steel CA on his instagram or website. Where can I find more info? I’d like to read up before contacting him. I might even try to visit him and meet in person. A trip to Switzerland is not so difficult to organise. Again thanks so much for all the helpful input so far! Edit: as I was typing this TS3 suggested the Romain Gauthier C - I tried this on last year at EWC and was a little underwhelmed by the finishing. Also, not looking to add a sports watch as that space is covered by Rolex and I just sold a Streamliner Chrono that I hardly wore. Thanks for the suggestion though!

[TopSlice]

How about Urban Jürgensen? I think 1140 RG is stunning with some great details.


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[FrugalGreubel]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

Thanks so much for the feedback gents. On Grossmann I came very close to acquiring a steel Tremblage just a couple of weeks ago but decided against it because of the fairly large l2l of 50mm, long lugs and relatively simple case shape. The new smaller Tefnuts are nice though. I have looked at Armin Strom many times before and the finishing looks fantastic, especially at the price point which is very reasonable. I’m undecided on the aesthetic so far, may be it’s a little techincal and angular for my liking. We do an AD in the Netherlands so it should be easy to try a GEF on. Grönefeld Principia is high on the list and market prices have come down to RRP. I prefer to work with them direct and I’m on the “list” for when orders open up again. I can contact them again to see if there’s an opportunity there as I really like their finishing and cases. On Simon Brette - the answer in this collecting hobby of course is always to shoot for the stars. I cannot find any info on his Steel CA on his instagram or website. Where can I find more info? I’d like to read up before contacting him. I might even try to visit him and meet in person. A trip to Switzerland is not so difficult to organise. Again thanks so much for all the helpful input so far! Edit: as I was typing this TS3 suggested the Romain Gauthier C - I tried this on last year at EWC and was a little underwhelmed by the finishing. Also, not looking to add a sports watch as that space is covered by Rolex and I just sold a Streamliner Chrono that I hardly wore. Thanks for the suggestion though!

Moritz Grossmann makes some amazing watches but I am with you on the size issue. They need to make the lug-to-lug smaller and have it taper better.

I’d contact Gronefeld again, you never know. The finishing is really nice and the case is very distinct.

For Simon Brette I’ve sent two emails and only got a boilerplate response. I recently sent a message via IG but I'm still waiting on a response. So I’ll let you know if there’s any update if that route works. I know others have had better success going in person. If that’s an option for you I’d consider it.

I’m surprised you didn’t care for the finishing on the RG. That seems to be one of things people are pretty positive about with the brand. Then again I’ve yet to see anything but the Logical One in person which is just wow.

Please keep us updated on what you plan to do/how things go. Definitely a lot of interesting/fun options for you to consider.

[dchang81]

I guess the thing about the finishing for the C is that it is half the price of the insight so you have to recalibrate expectations.

[enjoythemusic]

Thoughts on Lang & Heyne?

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Thoughts on Lang & Heyne?

I got to play with one in-person about a month ago at their AD in Toronto (eBillion).

The watches are exceptionally finished and trade for a nice discount on secondary. IMO, they are way better made than Lange & Sohne. So if someone loves the conservative German aesthetic, L&H is a good choice. Their frosting in particular, really shimmers and looks incredible. I loved it.

The one thing to consider I guess is that the original founders are both gone from the brand and have been gone for some time now. Personally, it doesn't bug me too much, but I know it's a big deal for others.

L&H will also customize their watches btw. I believe the wait is ~12 - 15 months.

[FrugalGreubel]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

I got to play with one in-person about a month ago at their AD in Toronto (eBillion).

The watches are exceptionally finished and trade for a nice discount on secondary. IMO, they are way better made than Lange & Sohne. So if someone loves the conservative German aesthetic, L&H is a good choice. Their frosting in particular, really shimmers and looks incredible. I loved it.

The one thing to consider I guess is that the original founders are both gone from the brand and have been gone for some time now. Personally, it doesn't bug me too much, but I know it's a big deal for others.

L&H will also customize their watches btw. I believe the wait is ~12 - 15 months.

I didn’t know they allowed customization. That’s pretty cool.