32xx movement problem poll and data thread

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by dannyp

I meant simple to implement but as yet undiscovered (likely due to either lack of understanding of cause or unwillingness to admit a problem exists). For example, using the current design but different materials for the pinions. Or does fixing one design flaw simply expose another?

Wondering if Rolex will just let it ride until the mechanics of the 22xx are ready to be enlarged?

I personally doubt that. As mentioned in other posts Rolex are known to silently fix things. Things we folk didn’t even know was an issue.

They 100% know about this and if there was a simple fix it would already be implemented.


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[dannyp]

Originally Posted by amanbra

Ym was sold. I’m am not going through what I went through with my dj on a gold watch where every time they touch it it comes back with new scratches.

Yes amp reduces as pr runs out. And yea I agree it’s odd it looses time when resting when normally it didn’t. ESP if you leave it dial up or down.

You didn’t change resting position right? Like crown up or down?


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Originally Posted by saxo3

Is this increased loss of time (during rest) depending on watch position?

I always rest dial-up. Either in my watch box, with bracelet folded under, or in its original box, on the original pillow.

To be clear, it loses less time when resting than when on the wrist. But it used to gain. Aside from a problem, all I can think of is that PR was typically more depleted than I thought, but doubt it would be that way consistently.

Originally Posted by amanbra

The watchmaker saying the date change has an issue actually is ringing true.

So my dd40 on a timegrapher dial up always shows about 0spd. But when left dial up over night always comes up -2. I did wonder if the double date change was taxing on the movement during the chang period.


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Perhaps that explains it on the DD, but mine is a 3230, and the watch shouldn't "know" if it's day or night since there's no day, date, or 24-hr mechanism.

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by amanbra

I personally doubt that. As mentioned in other posts Rolex are known to silently fix things. Things we folk didn’t even know was an issue.

They 100% know about this and if there was a simple fix it would already be implemented.


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Oh, I have no doubt Rolex is aware of the issue. And I shouldn't say "simple" fix so much as "localized" fix. In other words, "Part A should have Characteristic X instead" as opposed to multiple systemic design flaws.

Or, to use an analogy, when playing Sudoku, did you realize one move later that you put in the wrong number by accident, or ten moves (after you based every subsequent move on the faulty one)?

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by dannyp

Oh, I have no doubt Rolex is aware of the issue. And I shouldn't say "simple" fix so much as "localized" fix. In other words, "Part A should have Characteristic X instead" as opposed to multiple systemic design flaws.

Or, to use an analogy, when playing Sudoku, did you realize one move later that you put in the wrong number by accident, or ten moves (after you based every subsequent move on the faulty one)?

Not sure on this I and others have had issues return after first warranty… my watch is behaving very very well after it’s second trip though…

Of course Rolex don’t share any details around what they actually did on the watch …


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[dannyp]

Originally Posted by amanbra

Not sure on this I and others have had issues return after first warranty… my watch is behaving very very well after it’s second trip though…

Of course Rolex don’t share any details around what they actually did on the watch …


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Wonder if, collectively, we have enough data points to figure out if/when something changed (based on when they were sent in for service and if there were continued issues).

[Giovannibravo]

Perhaps the problem were from the first batch of 32xx watches. I recently got my sub. Seems to be running at +1 second a day which meets my expectations. Only complaint is my bracelet is squeaky.

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by Giovannibravo

Perhaps the problem were from the first batch of 32xx watches. I recently got my sub. Seems to be running at +1 second a day which meets my expectations. Only complaint is my bracelet is squeaky.

unfortunately I don't think it's the case, my TT sub was late 2021 as is my DD40.

all my watches had / have epic accuracy until the issue shows up. Can take a year or so.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Giovannibravo

Perhaps the problem were from the first batch of 32xx watches.

Good point but unfortunately this is not the case because the first 32xx calibers were released in 2015.

As I often posted, one characteristic signature of a problematic 32xx movement is a reduced amplitude after full winding. That is easy to identify with a rather cheap timegrapher.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by dannyp

When I wear the watch, it loses approximately 0.2/hr overall. That's been pretty steady. However, it no longer gains time overnight. It's still losing time, albeit at a slower rate than -0.2/hr.

I took these numbers:
Day -0.2 s/h
Night -0.01 s/h (assumed)

For about 16 hours daytime (16 x -0.2) plus 8 hours overnight (8 x -0.01) one obtains a total loss of -3.3 s/d.

Taking your start value of +0.7 s/d it results in a total change in accuracy of -4 s/d, which is not small.

I would try dial down instead of dial up rest position overnight.

[mario1971]

Originally Posted by saxo3

I took these numbers:
Day -0.2 s/h
Night -0.01 s/h (assumed)

For about 16 hours daytime (16 x -0.2) plus 8 hours overnight (8 x -0.01) one obtains a total loss of -3.3 s/d.

Taking your start value of +0.7 s/d it results in a total change in accuracy of -4 s/d, which is not small.

I would try dial down instead of dial up rest position overnight.

Do you seriously think that you can literally calculate the daily deviation of a watch in this mathematical way? ;)

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by saxo3

I took these numbers:
Day -0.2 s/h
Night -0.01 s/h (assumed)

For about 16 hours daytime (16 x -0.2) plus 8 hours overnight (8 x -0.01) one obtains a total loss of -3.3 s/d.

Taking your start value of +0.7 s/d it results in a total change in accuracy of -4 s/d, which is not small.

I would try dial down instead of dial up rest position overnight.

Sorry, maybe I made a typo, but it loses 0.1/hr at rest. However I only wear for about 8-10hrs/day. Call it 9, which means it’s probably running at about the same as you calculated.

I’d try dial down, but even if that worked, it wouldn’t account for the change all of a sudden.

Originally Posted by mario1971

Do you seriously think that you can literally calculate the daily deviation of a watch in this mathematical way? ;)

With enough days and days points per day, why not?

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by mario1971

Do you seriously think that you can literally calculate the daily deviation of a watch in this mathematical way? ;)

Yes, for my watches this works approximately.
A consistently running caliber is quite predictable if one understands the effect of various rest positions on accuracy. Of course one needs to do some measurements, e.g. with a timegrapher

Here is an example:
Using these numbers I am able to keep the timekeeping close to +/- 0 (compared to a reference time). That is possible because the 32xx calibers are very precise.

[mario1971]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Yes, for my watches this works approximately.
A consistently running caliber is quite predictable if one understands the effect of various rest positions on accuracy. Of course one needs to do some measurements, e.g. with a timegrapher

Here is an example:
Using these numbers I am able to keep the timekeeping close to +/- 0 (compared to a reference time). That is possible because the 32xx calibers are very precise.

In practice, however, it looks completely different with the watch on your hand. In addition to the position of the watch, the degree of spring tension, temperature, and the quality of the lubricants and their consumption are also important. I noticed that at the end of the power reserve (last hour before the stop), both my watches on the 3235 mechanism (both new, not yet a year old) show a deviation of about -4 seconds / day. My other Rolex on the 3186 keeps the timing stable at every stage of the spring winding until it stops.
But a constantly worn Rolex with a 3235 movement is very, very stable.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by mario1971

In practice, however, it looks completely different with the watch on your hand. In addition to the position of the watch, the degree of spring tension, temperature, and the quality of the lubricants and their consumption are also important.

Yes, I agree, many more factors influence caliber timekeeping on a wrist.

What is predictable is the time gain or loss overnight when the movement is kept in a well defined position. The watch on my wrist (daytime) gains or loses time, which I compensate with an adapted resting position overnight. A different position is needed if the movement either has to gain or lose.

The temperature change "on wrist" vs "off wrist" also has a significant influence on the movement rates and timekeeping, I measured that too ;-)

Of course I speak about a healthy 3235 watch and not an erratic movement with issues such as very low amplitudes after full winding.

Look at the rather high horizontal amplitudes (270-280 degrees) after 10 hours at rest and without winding (see Table in post 2382).

[dannyp]

So I finally got some real stats… stopped by an AD and asked if they’d put on timegrapher to measure amplitude. Sure enough, low-ish. 241, with timekeeping at -5 s/d. they said to send in for warranty repair, so may do that. Want to see if -5 holds since it’s always slowest right after a full wind.

Concerned mostly about that amplitude, though.

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by dannyp

So I finally got some real stats… stopped by an AD and asked if they’d put on timegrapher to measure amplitude. Sure enough, low-ish. 241, with timekeeping at -5 s/d. they said to send in for warranty repair, so may do that. Want to see if -5 holds since it’s always slowest right after a full wind.

Concerned mostly about that amplitude, though.

Well there you go =(

Sorry to see this buddy but it is what it is.

You have multiple options I guess, wait until near the end of your warranty, or send it in immediately. Or part ways with it if this is going to destroy your bond with the watch.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by amanbra

Well there you go =(

Sorry to see this buddy but it is what it is.

You have multiple options I guess, wait until near the end of your warranty, or send it in immediately. Or part ways with it if this is going to destroy your bond with the watch.

That about sums it up
Life is too short to waste good mental and emotional energy on any wrist watch.
There's a whole world of watches out there

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by dannyp

So I finally got some real stats… stopped by an AD and asked if they’d put on timegrapher to measure amplitude. Sure enough, low-ish. 241, with timekeeping at -5 s/d. they said to send in for warranty repair, so may do that. Want to see if -5 holds since it’s always slowest right after a full wind.

Concerned mostly about that amplitude, though.

Remind me please your watch reference and purchase date!

Respectfully, I do not understand why 'guys' like you do not buy a 200 $ timegrapher.

This thread started in January 2021 and it was said so often that low amplitudes after full winding is the key observable.

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by amanbra

Well there you go =(

Sorry to see this buddy but it is what it is.

You have multiple options I guess, wait until near the end of your warranty, or send it in immediately. Or part ways with it if this is going to destroy your bond with the watch.

I mean, what I want is for Rolex to simply offer a replacement... Part of me will always see this one as "defective" but I also don't want to not have it, since it's my favorite watch to wear. Suppose I could get this one serviced, sell it, and then source a brand new one, but no guarantee it won't have the same problem.

I wish that warranty claims within this short a length of time would be handled with a simple replacement, but don't think that happens even when cases are full and watches plentiful...

Originally Posted by saxo3

Remind me please your watch reference and purchase date!

Respectfully, I do not understand why 'guys' like you do not buy a 200 $ timegrapher.

This thread started in January 2021 and it was said so often that low amplitudes after full winding is the key observable.

Yea, at this point might go ahead and get one...

Mine is a 124270, bought May of 21, so among the first batches out there. Suppose the movement itself could have been made quite a bit before, though.

I know there's no acknowledged "fix" yet, but do we know if anything in production changed in the past year?

[Tyd450]

I have my heart set on getting the updated 41 submariner no date as my first rolex but this thread has me seriously considering going for the prior 40mm model with the boxy lugs instead. I was hoping to get my first one new from a local AD though so this is very unfortunate!

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by Tyd450

I have my heart set on getting the updated 41 submariner no date as my first rolex but this thread has me seriously considering going for the prior 40mm model with the boxy lugs instead. I was hoping to get my first one new from a local AD though so this is very unfortunate!

Yeah if I were you and don’t mind the lugs I would go previous gen.


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[dannyp]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Remind me please your watch reference and purchase date!

Respectfully, I do not understand why 'guys' like you do not buy a 200 $ timegrapher.

This thread started in January 2021 and it was said so often that low amplitudes after full winding is the key observable.

So I can’t seem to find it: What should be the amplitude of a 3230 when fully wound? I know Rolex only considers it “out of spec” of below 200 after 24hrs, but I’m trying to gauge how low mine really is relative to what “should be” (vs what is “accepted”).

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by dannyp

So I can’t seem to find it: What should be the amplitude of a 3230 when fully wound? I know Rolex only considers it “out of spec” of below 200 after 24hrs, but I’m trying to gauge how low mine really is relative to what “should be” (vs what is “accepted”).

Hahahaha

This thread is full of amplitude, rate, and beat error data.
For a healthy 32xx I would expect:

Horizontal positions (dial up, dial down): 270 -280 degrees.
Vertical positions (3 up, 6 up, 9 up): 240 -250 degrees.

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Hahahaha

This thread is full of amplitude, rate, and beat error data.
For a healthy 32xx I would expect:

Horizontal positions (dial up, dial down): 270 -280 degrees.
Vertical positions (3 up, 6 up, 9 up): 240 -250 degrees.

Yes, a thread full of amplitudes… of watches with problems…

Couldn’t find the “healthy” one

Thanks!

So assuming watchmaker who tested mine took an average, mine is concerning (241). Service time, I suppose…

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by dannyp

So assuming watchmaker who tested mine took an average, mine is concerning (241). Service time, I suppose…

No, not yet. You don't know what he measured (240 degrees in H- or V-position or 5-position average?).

Buy a timegrapher and do your own measurements. With concrete numbers you can also compare before/after RSC.

If you need help to do the measurements and understand the results I can guide you through danny

[CMAGS84]

Anyone here with with an early release 3235 (older the 2 years) that’s never had an issue?

I purchased a DJ 36 from my AD in early February. So far it keeps great time and it’s very easy to regulate. Resting position of dial down gets me +1 to +1.5 each night. Crown down loses 0.5 to 1 second overnight. I’m going to purchase a timegrapher to keep track of the movement.


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[dannyp]

Originally Posted by saxo3

No, not yet. You don't know what he measured (240 degrees in H- or V-position or 5-position average?).

Buy a timegrapher and do your own measurements. With concrete numbers you can also compare before/after RSC.

If you need help to do the measurements and understand the results I can guide you through danny

Yes, that'll likely be my next watch-related investment.

To clarify: I wouldn't send in based on amplitude alone. Rather, to your earlier point, using that as a clue that the poor timekeeping is indicative of a bigger problem than simply requiring regulation. Same watchmaker clocked it at -5 s/d yesterday and recommended sending in on that basis alone.

Even if measured in the highest-friction position, it sounds like 241 is at the very bottom of the "healthy" range.

I also got a slip of paper with two other stats: One was the beat error (which I'd asked for) of 0.2. The other was "delta 5" (assuming the little triangle on the paper was meant as a "delta"). Not sure what that's for, other than it's the same as the timekeeping number (-5/day).

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by CMAGS84

Anyone here with with an early release 3235 (older the 2 years) that’s never had an issue?

I purchased a DJ 36 from my AD in early February. So far it keeps great time and it’s very easy to regulate. Resting position of dial down gets me +1 to +1.5 each night. Crown down loses 0.5 to 1 second overnight. I’m going to purchase a timegrapher to keep track of the movement.

An early release 3235 is a watch from 2015-16.

My 126600 Sea-Dweller (3235) is from late 2017, the movement developed problems, after RSC repair in late 2019 it is running very well now. Plenty of data and graphs about it in this thread.

Good decision to buy a timegrapher

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by dannyp

I also got a slip of paper with two other stats: One was the beat error (which I'd asked for) of 0.2. The other was "delta 5" (assuming the little triangle on the paper was meant as a "delta"). Not sure what that's for, other than it's the same as the timekeeping number (-5/day).

That's interesting, please post a photo of it!

[mario1971]

Originally Posted by CMAGS84

Anyone here with with an early release 3235 (older the 2 years) that’s never had an issue?

I purchased a DJ 36 from my AD in early February. So far it keeps great time and it’s very easy to regulate. Resting position of dial down gets me +1 to +1.5 each night. Crown down loses 0.5 to 1 second overnight. I’m going to purchase a timegrapher to keep track of the movement.


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Don't do this because you won't be able to sleep. Let's not get paranoid. It is enough to check the incidence from time to time and if it is normal, enjoy the watch. ;)