Kermit flat 4 questions?

[www777]

I’m considering picking one up. Any idea what years these were produced compared to the regular Kermit? Any questions I should be asking the dealer about? Thanks

[Tools]

A flat-4 is a "regular Kermit"

When the LV came out back in 2003, the first few runs were part of that era of bezel insert. It is indicative of a time period, not some special accessory that only the LV got.

The first year or so would be flat 4 insert and oval O in Rolex. If original these are the cream of Kermit Subs.

[springer]

Originally Posted by Tools

A flat-4 is a "regular Kermit"

When the LV came out back in 2003, the first few runs were part of that era of bezel insert. It is indicative of a time period, not some special accessory that only the LV got.

The first year or so would be flat 4 insert and oval O in Rolex. If original these are the cream of Kermit Subs.

And, if I might add to the comments from Tools, you will find the flat 4 16610LV variation from the years 2003-2004.

As collectors key in on subtle variations of their favorite collector model, the Submariner
16610LV didn't let them down.

The following post provides information and other links that discuss the 16610LV variations.

https://gmtforum.com/viewtopic.php?f...1d76c3a7999c33

[geoach]

get one with white hang take or papers..........I have a late Y the first of the lv flat 4 mark 1 dial.with what hand tag..........I seen a flat 4 here f0 but oddly the dial is 3. tics swiss made which came later.......the dial was changed at some point..........I think

[swish77]

Originally Posted by www777

I’m considering picking one up. Any idea what years these were produced compared to the regular Kermit? Any questions I should be asking the dealer about? Thanks

Once you determine that the LV is a legit flat 4 variation, ask yourself if it’s worth all that extra money for such a minuscule difference.

I went down this road, and I just couldn’t bring myself to spend thousands of dollars more for a “4” that has a slightly different font that you need a loupe to notice.

I’d much rather put my money into overall condition and a full set was all correct. It’s a great reference, with or without a flat 4 bezel insert.

[subx]

the point of the flat 4 is that it quickly identifies it as a first year production, aka the true 50th Anniversary Sub.
Found only in Y (pre run) late 2003, and F0xxxxx (first run) 2004

[springer]

Originally Posted by swish77

Once you determine that the LV is a legit flat 4 variation, ask yourself if it’s worth all that extra money for such a minuscule difference.

I went down this road, and I just couldn’t bring myself to spend thousands of dollars more for a “4” that has a slightly different font that you need a loupe to notice.

I’d much rather put my money into overall condition and a full set was all correct. It’s a great reference, with or without a flat 4 bezel insert.

Variations and subtle differences - isn't that what drives collectors. No matter what you collect, we love those variations which drives us crazy if we don't have it. I could list all kinds of variations on the several Rolex models that bring substantial premiums. Enough to fill a whole page.

With that said, go for the flat 4 variation if that's what you seek. It is undoubtedly one of the most collectable Rolex watches from the past 20 years.

[springer]

Originally Posted by subx

the point of the flat 4 is that it quickly identifies it as a first year production, aka the true 50th Anniversary Sub.
Found only in Y (pre run) late 2003, and F0xxxxx (first run) 2004

If you must have the "flat 4" collectors should realize the first year of production is not limited to Y and F0 serial numbers. I have no idea what a pre run is but all of the first run or early anniversary Submariners had the same similarities and have been found in much later serial numbers than F0. Additionally, the Y serial numbered anniversary Subs as a "must have" is promoted by dealers to hype their sales. But, if you feel the need to have an early serial numbered flat 4, the earliest known serial numbers begin with Y9.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by springer

Variations and subtle differences - isn't that what drives collectors. No matter what you collect, we love those variations which drives us crazy if we don't have it.

Totally agree, but it needs to be a significant variation, one that makes a visual impact, IMHO.

Red Sub, yes. DRSD, yes. Gilt dials, yes, Big Red Daytona, double yes. These are very cool, noticeable distinctions on watches.

Whether or not an insert “4” has a slightly pointy or slightly flat top is not worth $6K-$8K more. Not for me anyway. Maybe I’m odd.

[Deppe]

Originally Posted by swish77

Totally agree, but it needs to be a significant variation, one that makes a visual impact, IMHO.

Red Sub, yes. DRSD, yes. Gilt dials, yes, Big Red Daytona, double yes. These are very cool, noticeable distinctions on watches.

Whether or not an insert “4” has a slightly pointy or slightly flat top is not worth $6K-$8K more. Not for me anyway. Maybe I’m odd.

I have pondered this myself - take a 16520 with a floating dial. I like it, and I understand that it is special, but that much more money, for a little more space between two lines of text? I can better understand the argument for e.g. a porcelain dial or a red sub, but then again - you could also say “so much more money just for a different color of text?”. Maybe I’m odd too

[0nly5iv3Digits]

I wouldn't pay a premium for "flat 4". That said, I also just prefer the B4/B5 shades...

[~JJ]

Also, there’s been members here that received a flat 4 insert during service so the field is very muddy. I agree with a previous poster that you need the original hang tag since most collectors at this level only consider the first year of production to be the only correct year with that bezel even thought it’s not a 100% true.

[springer]

Originally Posted by ~JJ

Also, there’s been members here that received a flat 4 insert during service so the field is very muddy. I agree with a previous poster that you need the original hang tag since most collectors at this level only consider the first year of production to be the only correct year with that bezel even thought it’s not a 100% true.

There is much more than the "flat 4" bezel insert found on the early 16610LV that identifies these watches.

The watch needs to have all the attributes identified in threads identifying these flat 4 models. Also, within the typed (not punched) USA warranty paper, there should be a V after the 16610 model number found at the top right corner where it reads "style." There should normally be a white hang tag marked 16610LV with the set if it wasn't kept by the dealer at the time of the sale.

The original hang tag is a bonus but not necessary for USA watches if trying to identify a genuine 16610LV. The style number will identify the Submariner as a 16610LV.

Also, I have found that outside the USA, with the punched papers found on these LV models, there is no style number on the warranty paper. In this case, these sets did have the model number 16610LV typed on the hang tag. 16610LV or 16610V will be absent from the warranty paper.