Regulating a Rolex to near zero gain- voodoo or a simple mechanical procedure

[Brauner Hund]

Situation: A 2003 GMT runs consistently 2.2 to 2.4 seconds fast per day.

Assumption: With a consistent error, it should be easy to correct to near zero seconds per day. A simple adjustment of a couple of weights (marked in seconds) is all that's required. No 'beat rate' measurement. No voodoo, just a turn of two calibrated weights to slow the watch by 2 sec per day.

Question: What have I missed?! :) :)

[JohnBaker3]

Originally Posted by Brauner Hund

No voodoo, just a turn of two calibrated weights to slow the watch by 2 sec per day.

Question: What have I missed?! :) :)

You have missed nothing but a skilled watchmaker would need to work on the watch over several days to verify his adjustments....

[Fredrik]

If it is that consistent then you also have very regular wearing patterns and then you are correct. I have had all my watches I wear a lot regulated to within 0 and +1s per day. It takes a few days with a watchmaker to get it regulated correctly.

[Brauner Hund]

Great to hear

[dysondiver]

patience ,,, look forwards to hearing how you get on ,, i never worry , unless its into mins a week ,,,

[Brauner Hund]

Originally Posted by dysondiver

patience ,,, look forwards to hearing how you get on ,, i never worry , unless its into mins a week ,,,

Really looking for technical input rather than a chant of the 'pursuit of mediocrity' mantra. Thanks for your input though

[wrightbrain]

Check the gain or loss in all six positions overnight yourself. You may find that one position looses half a second over night or something like that and then you can regulate yourself.

[Brauner Hund]

Originally Posted by wrightbrain

Check the gain or loss in all six positions overnight yourself. You may find that one position looses half a second over night or something like that and then you can regulate yourself.

Thanks, but I wear it 24/7 - and I'm really wanting to calibrate the watch to 'me', rather than the other way around :) Seems to be so much voodoo ascribed to, what I perceive as, a simple mechanical adjustment of a machine that's been designed to be adjusted, and so many people who seem happy with 'mediocre' rather than 'superlative' that I was looking for an idiot-check as to whether I was missing something :)

[mnbookman]

2.2 seconds a day is not mediocre, especially on your wrist. :)

[Sidmind]

Are you asking because you want to know how to do this yourself?
If so then your assumption is correct that it is a simple mechanical adjustment for a watchmaker who has the tools and experience, if you currently don't know how then there is absolutely NO way you can do it yourself at this time,
I have been a hobby level watchmaker for 3 years and still would advise myself not to regulate my own Rolex, the process is much more difficult than a normal vintage watch. Yes I have regulated my Sub with success but it was very unnerving and I doubt I will do it again.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by Brauner Hund

Thanks, but I wear it 24/7 - and I'm really wanting to calibrate the watch to 'me', rather than the other way around :) Seems to be so much voodoo ascribed to, what I perceive as, a simple mechanical adjustment of a machine that's been designed to be adjusted, and so many people who seem happy with 'mediocre' rather than 'superlative' that I was looking for an idiot-check as to whether I was missing something :)

Voodoo? Gravity affects mechanical watches differently in different orientations (positions). Hence, the advice to check it in all six positions.

Your watch already meets the engineering standard for superlative that Rolex ascribes to, and is running at an error of about 0.0028% per day. If you have a different standard, you should pay a watchmaker to try to attain it.

Let us know how it turns out.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Brauner Hund

Situation: A 2003 GMT runs consistently 2.2 to 2.4 seconds fast per day.

Assumption: With a consistent error, it should be easy to correct to near zero seconds per day. A simple adjustment of a couple of weights (marked in seconds) is all that's required. No 'beat rate' measurement. No voodoo, just a turn of two calibrated weights to slow the watch by 2 sec per day.

Question: What have I missed?! :) :)

Just because its adjusted on a machine that don't mean movement will perform exactly the same every single day on the wrist.Some of you guys make me smile about the mechanical marvel on your wrist,if any movement run consistent then that's a very fine and accurate movement.At the moment its showing around 99.997% + accurate out of 86400 seconds in a day myself would be singing the movements praises.Remember this the escapement of a mechanical watch in 24 hours pushes the gears 432,000 times.Your watch is showing very high precision, given the fact that the movement is constantly affected by the earth's gravity, metal expansion and contraction, temperature variations, subtle changes in lubrication and friction, shocks, and so on.The fact is that no purely mechanical movement made will keep 100% perfect time, any brand and any price, very close yes but 100% perfect no.

[Beak]

I understand the OP's concern about accuracy. I have many watches, with varying levels of accuracy. My new Explorer has not changed from being 1second fast for the past 2 weeks. Not 1 sec/ day. One second fast over the first 2 weeks! I check it against my Watchville app, and against my IPhone time a couple times daily. I haven't reset it, only wound it and worn it. I take it off at night and place it upright with the crown on the right side.
Am I missing something? Or is my Explorer really, really accurate?

[Brauner Hund]

Originally Posted by Sidmind

Are you asking because you want to know how to do this yourself?
.

No :)

[Brauner Hund]

Originally Posted by Sidmind

If so then your assumption is correct that it is a simple mechanical adjustment for a watchmaker who has the tools and experience, .

Thanks

[Brauner Hund]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

Voodoo? Gravity affects mechanical watches differently in different orientations (positions). Hence, the advice to check it in all six positions.

Your watch already meets the engineering standard for superlative that Rolex ascribes to, and is running at an error of about 0.0028% per day. If you have a different standard, you should pay a watchmaker to try to attain it.

Let us know how it turns out.

My watch has one average position: On my wrist :)

If a machine that's designed to have its error adjusted, shows a consistent average error, it should be a simple matter to adjust the error out... and those who understand that seem to agree that that's the case for this machine :)

But don't confuse that with someone saying 'there'll be no error' ;

- day to day variance will remain - but it will be around a centre value of 'zero' rather than a centre value of 'plus 2'. :)

ie if day to day variance can be represented by a gaussian curve; do you choose to have the centre point of that normal distribution over 'zero' or over 'plus 2' - personally, I'm going for a zero centre point ;)

[Sidmind]

There are other ways to adjust a watch by 2 seconds per day, that is if the watch has a certain level of wear.

question, do you wind the watch every day? if so how many turns of the crown?

Seeing how you wear the watch 24/7 those variables will be fairly constant, assuming you always sleep the same with the watch at rest at your side or under your pillow for 8 hour per night.

The factor you can control his how much or little you wind the crown, try changing drastically your winding routine, for example if you wind it every day, stop.... let the auto take care of the winding which will change the force on the mainspring and change the timing. or if you do NOT wind ever, start... or try 10 twists of the crown per day, then 20, etc etc until you 'possible' achieve a zero regulation.
Keep in mind as the watch wears this will not remain a constant, but could buy you some time

Or

Place the watch face up while you sleep, or face down, or crown up, crown down, etc.

[Brauner Hund]

Originally Posted by Sidmind

There are other ways to adjust a watch by 2 seconds per day, that is if the watch has a certain level of wear.

question, do you wind the watch every day? if so how many turns of the crown?

Seeing how you wear the watch 24/7 those variables will be fairly constant, assuming you always sleep the same with the watch at rest at your side or under your pillow for 8 hour per night.

The factor you can control his how much or little you wind the crown, try changing drastically your winding routine, for example if you wind it every day, stop.... let the auto take care of the winding which will change the force on the mainspring and change the timing. or if you do NOT wind ever, start... or try 10 twists of the crown per day, then 20, etc etc until you 'possible' achieve a zero regulation.
Keep in mind as the watch wears this will not remain a constant, but could buy you some time

Or

Place the watch face up while you sleep, or face down, or crown up, crown down, etc.

Kevin, thanks - I think, for me (and hence my opening question), this is just a simple mechanical 'accuracy' versus 'consistency' issue.
With my watch on 24/7 (and not hand wound), it is wildly consistent.
I now want to adjust the accuracy.
:)

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by Brauner Hund

My watch has one average position: On my wrist :)

If a machine that's designed to have its error adjusted, shows a consistent average error, it should be a simple matter to adjust the error out... and those who understand that seem to agree that that's the case for this machine :)

But don't confuse that with someone saying 'there'll be no error' ;

- day to day variance will remain - but it will be around a centre value of 'zero' rather than a centre value of 'plus 2'. :)

ie if day to day variance can be represented by a gaussian curve; do you choose to have the centre point of that normal distribution over 'zero' or over 'plus 2' - personally, I'm going for a zero centre point ;)

It's a machine that is built to an engineering standard: -4 to +6 second per day on average over time. Your watch is running within spec, and those who understand the engineering seem to agree that your watch is working very well as it is :)

Your watchmaker can adjust it to 0 in the lab. Once you put it on your wrist all bets are off as to where your center point will reside due to the differences in the environmental variables between the lab and your wrist. By trial and error, the watchmaker will eventually get it where you want it. But the set point will drift with time and season due to environmental variation. And back to the watchmaker you will go ;)

The GMT isn't designed to be +/- 0 all the time, so expecting a one time visit to the watchmaker over the life of the watch is unrealistic. For the consistent accuracy you want, you should look into an Oyster Quartz, which will get you much closer to your desires and keep you there much longer than a purely mechanical watch is capable of.

[Brauner Hund]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

It's a machine that is built to an engineering standard: -4 to +6 second per day on average over time. Your watch is running within spec, and those who understand the engineering seem to agree that your watch is working very well as it is :)

Your watchmaker can adjust it to 0 in the lab. Once you put it on your wrist all bets are off as to where your center point will reside due to the differences in the environmental variables between the lab and your wrist. By trial and error, the watchmaker will eventually get it where you want it. But the set point will drift with time and season due to environmental variation. And back to the watchmaker you will go ;)

The GMT isn't designed to be +/- 0 all the time, so expecting a one time visit to the watchmaker over the life of the watch is unrealistic. For the consistent accuracy you want, you should look into an Oyster Quartz, which will get you much closer to your desires and keep you there much longer than a purely mechanical watch is capable of.

The point you are missing, is that I'm not asking for advice on theoretical lab measurement and adjustment based on that theoretical assessment.

My watch is a machine that, in actual use, demonstrates a consistent mean gain -I say again: in actual use...actual 24/7 in-use empirical observation - and the machine is clearly calibrated to have such consistent mean gain adjusted out.

That's what my question was about. Empirical in-use measurement, followed by calibrated (ie, it's marked on the weights) adjustment. It's been answered by those who have done it.

(and, as I said in an earlier post: "don't confuse [this] with someone saying 'there'll be no error' ; - day to day variance will remain - but it will be around a centre value of 'zero' rather than a centre value of 'plus 2'. :) ie if day to day variance can be represented by a gaussian curve; do you choose to have the centre point of that normal distribution over 'zero' or over 'plus 2' - personally, I'm going for a zero centre point ;) " )


I would suggest, contrary to your assertion, that it's actually those who do not understand engineering or, perhaps, statistics who struggle with such a simple concept :)

Other than that, you make a lot of other assumptions about my hopes and expectations. I thank you for your speculative advice, but will simply observe that, to my mind, you have a very pessimistic expectation of day to day variance and seem unable to separate your understanding of possible the span of daily variance from the average gain/loss represented by the mean of that span :)

To whit:

'A watch running with a daily two second gain is less accurate than a stopped watch'

Discuss. :)

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by Brauner Hund

The point you are missing, is that I'm not asking for advice on theoretical lab measurement and adjustment based on that theoretical assessment.

My watch is a machine that, in actual use, demonstrates a consistent mean gain -I say again: in actual use...actual 24/7 in-use empirical observation - and the machine is clearly calibrated to have such consistent mean gain adjusted out.

That's what my question was about. Empirical in-use measurement, followed by calibrated (ie, it's marked on the weights) adjustment. It's been answered by those who have done it.

(and, as I said in an earlier post: "don't confuse [this] with someone saying 'there'll be no error' ; - day to day variance will remain - but it will be around a centre value of 'zero' rather than a centre value of 'plus 2'. :) ie if day to day variance can be represented by a gaussian curve; do you choose to have the centre point of that normal distribution over 'zero' or over 'plus 2' - personally, I'm going for a zero centre point ;) " )


I would suggest, contrary to your assertion, that it's actually those who do not understand engineering or, perhaps, statistics who struggle with such a simple concept :)

Other than that, you make a lot of other assumptions about my hopes and expectations. I thank you for your speculative advice, but will simply observe that, to my mind, you have a very pessimistic expectation of day to day variance and seem unable to separate your understanding of possible the span of daily variance from the average gain/loss represented by the mean of that span :)

To whit:

'A watch running with a daily two second gain is less accurate than a stopped watch'

Discuss. :)

I'm an engineer and I understand what you are trying to say. You were the one that accused us of a "chant of mediocrity", even though your watch is running well within the advertised design tolerances.

It's a mechanical device, subject to wear and environmental variation that makes a permanent set point unrealistic. This is true of all mechanical systems. They all drift and all require continual adjustment. A tolerance extends the adjustment interval, which makes it cheaper to operate the system.

Your watch is in tolerance and requires no adjustment in accordance with manufacturer specifications. But, you're free to change the maintenance protocol to keep the mean at 0 or whatever you want. It's your watch and your money.

Those of us who think that's a waste of time and money aren't mediocre, we're just not willing to invest resources into something that's not broken.

[Vanessa CW21]

It's definitely possible to regulate a watch per your wearing habits, as long as your expectations are reasonable regarding the time over which this will be accurate. Obviously over time your movement will require an overhaul, and this will be clear when your watch start losing or gaining time again.
Regulation is always just a temporary fix, and will never (to my knowledge) be guaranteed.

[Vanessa CW21]

To add, personally I shy away from customers with your kind of expectations, because once I touch the movement, I'll be responsible for it, and you will continue to send the watch back if it isn't 0 seconds...
Also, it's a lot easier to regulate 10 seconds than 2 seconds... the regulating screws aren't really designed to make such small adjustments. The one sec and 2 sec screws all need to be turned at the same time to avoid heavy spots on the balance, so we can 1+1+2+2 sec easily, (6 seconds) and even if we're able to manipulate the microscrews by half the amount (which is very delicate) it would still be 0.5+0.5+1+1, which is 3 seconds. Would you be okay with your watch running 0.5 to 1 second slow? Or do you rather have it run 2 seconds fast?

[Brauner Hund]

Originally Posted by Vanessa CW21

It's definitely possible to regulate a watch per your wearing habits, as long as your expectations are reasonable regarding the time over which this will be accurate. Obviously over time your movement will require an overhaul, and this will be clear when your watch start losing or gaining time again.
Regulation is always just a temporary fix, and will never (to my knowledge) be guaranteed.

Happy with that. Thanks.

[Brauner Hund]

Originally Posted by Vanessa CW21

To add, personally I shy away from customers with your kind of expectations, because once I touch the movement, I'll be responsible for it, and you will continue to send the watch back if it isn't 0 seconds...
Also, it's a lot easier to regulate 10 seconds than 2 seconds... the regulating screws aren't really designed to make such small adjustments. The one sec and 2 sec screws all need to be turned at the same time to avoid heavy spots on the balance, so we can 1+1+2+2 sec easily, (6 seconds) and even if we're able to manipulate the microscrews by half the amount (which is very delicate) it would still be 0.5+0.5+1+1, which is 3 seconds. Would you be okay with your watch running 0.5 to 1 second slow? Or do you rather have it run 2 seconds fast?

Great technical info, thank you - it'll be of huge use in informing my chat with my watchmaker :) [one question, you mention all 4 screws must be turned together; the only reference I've turned up online seems to specify 'pairs' and not all 4: link here - Is that outdated info, or simply incomplete info that I'm misunderstanding?] Many thanks :)

[Fredrik]

I wondered the same thing, I always thought you adjusted them in pairs and that turning both 1s screws would result in adding 1s, not 1+1s as Vanessa hints too.

[Vanessa CW21]

Originally Posted by Brauner Hund

Great technical info, thank you - it'll be of huge use in informing my chat with my watchmaker :) [one question, you mention all 4 screws must be turned together; the only reference I've turned up online seems to specify 'pairs' and not all 4: link here - Is that outdated info, or simply incomplete info that I'm misunderstanding?] Many thanks :)

Well there's 2 pairs on the modern movements, the 1 sec and the 2 sec. From experience, and I apologize for not remembering with the "official word" is on this, I prefer manipulating them all together each time to get the best outcome in all 6 positions.

Sent from my phone.

[Rikki]

When I regulate watches I shoot for about 2 secs a day fast. Occasionally they time out at 0.1 seconds a day but this is machine timing not real world wearing watch which will always vary the time keeping to some degree or other. COSC is typically -4 to + 6 secs a day Rolex wont let out the door I believe anything over 4.9 secs a day so I shoot for half that and for the most part have excellent results. Rikki

[Knappo 1307]

Originally Posted by Vanessa CW21

To add, personally I shy away from customers with your kind of expectations, because once I touch the movement, I'll be responsible for it, and you will continue to send the watch back if it isn't 0 seconds...
Also, it's a lot easier to regulate 10 seconds than 2 seconds... the regulating screws aren't really designed to make such small adjustments. The one sec and 2 sec screws all need to be turned at the same time to avoid heavy spots on the balance, so we can 1+1+2+2 sec easily, (6 seconds) and even if we're able to manipulate the microscrews by half the amount (which is very delicate) it would still be 0.5+0.5+1+1, which is 3 seconds. Would you be okay with your watch running 0.5 to 1 second slow? Or do you rather have it run 2 seconds fast?

This....

[DCgator]

Originally Posted by Brauner Hund

I would suggest.... that it's actually those who do not understand engineering or, perhaps, statistics who struggle with such a simple concept :)

I am a lifetime member! :D