Question re: movement finishing and conventional wisdom

[Golden Palomino]

I often read in review comments and in forums like TRF statements which say, generally speaking, ‘for 25k I expect the movement to have hand finished anglage and interior angles.’ But my observation is that watches with these features genuinely executed are significantly more expensive than the ones being compared and thusly disparaged. Furthermore, I consistently see remarks alluding to 100% hand finishing of watches (particularly of certain brands cough patek cough) that I believe in fact use machine finishing for their more popular sub 100k commercial models.

Personally I don’t mind machine finished bevels as much as I mind boring movement architecture, but I’m curious if folks genuinely in the know can give a better idea of where the price balance really lies for known brands as it pertains to fine hand polishing and beveling vs use of machine tools?


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[enjoythemusic]

(Phew) That's is a tricky question with many variables. Here's a good article i feel is informative.

https://watchesbysjx.com/2022/11/wat...-map-2022.html

[kunlun]

Originally Posted by Golden Palomino

I often read in review comments and in forums like TRF statements which say, generally speaking, ‘for 25k I expect the movement to have hand finished anglage and interior angles.’

People say dumb stuff all the time. And to be fair, if one is looking for deals on the used market for certain brands, maybe...

The way to gauge value is to look at prices of watches you like, both new and (if possible) used via chrono24, etc. Find brands that do what you like and are less hyped and you'll find your sweet spot.

[WatchEater666]

Well, some brands definitely offer true hand finishing in that price range.

For example, Armin Strom has the Tribute1 and Gravity Equal Force in that price range, and both have sharp interior angles, and relatively thick anglage free of chatter marks/scratches.

I think the critique is that a lot of brands like AP and Patek put on a show about being handfinished but they are not really. It's misleading. That is all.

Personally, I would never pay new Patek prices. They don't do real guilloche and the finishing is 100% a step below brands like Breguet and others in the same price range.

[cbalster]

In the end the biggest factor in price is brand name. If it's FPJ, Rolex, or Patek, it's going to cost a lot, finishing done well or not. You can buy a Breguet 3337 for under $20k and get a wild amount of hand finishing. You can get a Lange Saxonia Thin copper blue under 25k too. The options are abundant. These days even a Lange 1815 chrono can be found sub 50k!

[Golden Palomino]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

(Phew) That's is a tricky question with many variables. Here's a good article i feel is informative.

https://watchesbysjx.com/2022/11/wat...-map-2022.html

Nice article and very informative! I like how they boiled it down to a key FOM, but went to the trouble to explain the nuance of real tradeoffs these firms make when it comes to decisions and the way they operate their business.


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[Golden Palomino]

Originally Posted by kunlun

People say dumb stuff all the time. And to be fair, if one is looking for deals on the used market for certain brands, maybe...

The way to gauge value is to look at prices of watches you like, both new and (if possible) used via chrono24, etc. Find brands that do what you like and are less hyped and you'll find your sweet spot.

People do love saying dumb stuff. That’s just science!


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[Golden Palomino]

Originally Posted by cbalster

In the end the biggest factor in price is brand name. If it's FPJ, Rolex, or Patek, it's going to cost a lot, finishing done well or not. You can buy a Breguet 3337 for under $20k and get a wild amount of hand finishing. You can get a Lange Saxonia Thin copper blue under 25k too. The options are abundant. These days even a Lange 1815 chrono can be found sub 50k!

Brand is such a big thing, especially in contemporary times. This philosophy goes beyond our hobby, and indeed seems to be swallowing the entire world sadly.

Sometimes tho the perception vs reality curves do meet, eg rolex is often much maligned because of its hype and ubiquity, but in the end Rolex watches hit a kind of sweet spot of attainability, timelessness, reliability, wearability, value retention, etc. finishing notwithstanding. it’s less obvious until you start wearing them, but I think in the end this is the core balance they strike that keeps them so dominant.

Finishing isn’t everything, it’s just one thing. Holistic approach to design, done really well, will always beat brand perception in the long run. It’s just that nailing design is harder than brand building imo


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[Golden Palomino]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

Well, some brands definitely offer true hand finishing in that price range.

For example, Armin Strom has the Tribute1 and Gravity Equal Force in that price range, and both have sharp interior angles, and relatively thick anglage free of chatter marks/scratches.

I think the critique is that a lot of brands like AP and Patek put on a show about being handfinished but they are not really. It's misleading. That is all.

Personally, I would never pay new Patek prices. They don't do real guilloche and the finishing is 100% a step below brands like Breguet and others in the same price range.

Armin Strom is a very nice example! I do love rooting for the little guys, although their overall design language doesn’t sing strongly enough to me, but I get it for sure.

I do have a soft spot for makers with leadership that feels sincere and genuine and unafraid to be different. H Moser and MB&F give off good vibrations that way


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[Golden Palomino]

Originally Posted by cbalster

In the end the biggest factor in price is brand name. If it's FPJ, Rolex, or Patek, it's going to cost a lot, finishing done well or not. You can buy a Breguet 3337 for under $20k and get a wild amount of hand finishing. You can get a Lange Saxonia Thin copper blue under 25k too. The options are abundant. These days even a Lange 1815 chrono can be found sub 50k!

I should add that I do really like both Lange watches to which you refer. I just wish they could be had in yellow gold. Why oh why is YG so uncommon in the designs I most appreciate?! FWIW I really like the PP 5170 which can be had in YG at around the 1815 price, so maybe someday?


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