Newly Serviced Amplitude

[jimi]

I just received my 16013 back from Rolex Dallas after exactly 11 weeks on Wednesday.
I'm concerned about its amplitude at full wind. It's only 255-260 with Dial Up but amplitude stays above 225 after 24 hours and has a total power reserve of almost 52 hours. It's been running dead-on for the last 3 days. Should I be concerned about this? Will the amplitude increase over time?
By the way, total cost of service is $1115.00, including new gold crown and tube. This is a 1987 model with no service history. It just won't start after 2 months of storage.
Thanks all!

[saxo3]

Due to the approx. 52 hours power reserve, I assume that your 16013 (from 1987) has the 3135 caliber (introduced in 1988) installed and not the 3035 (42 hours power reserve). Is that true?

The fully wound 3135 caliber in my 16600 Sea-Dweller has 290-300 degrees in horizontal and 260-270 degrees in vertical positions. Therefore, I think that your measured 255-260 degrees in DU position are a bit too low, especially after a fresh RSC service.

Did you do a full caliber winding? How many full (360 degrees) crown turns? Which lift angle did you use and what are the 5 position rates?

[jimi]

I've read about the 42 hours reserve but there are several articles that said the power reserve was increased to 50 hours.
https://watchbase.com/rolex/caliber/3035
I did more than 40 full turns when I wound it and lift angle set to 52. I didn't record the rates in other positions but I'm sure they were 0 to +2 with amplitudes no less than 230.
I put it back on the timegrapher this morning and it recorded 271 in dial up.
Thanks for your reply.

[saxo3]

Ok, 3035 is what I thought initially.
Does the RSC invoice confirm this caliber?
Maybe you can provide the timegrapher results for all positions?

[jimi]

I just checked the invoice and no mention of the caliber.
I'll post the timegrapher results later.

[Alexjb007]

El 16013, solo monta 3035.

[Clowkoy]

Here's what I got earlier:
DU +1 0.2 257
DD +1 0.0 260
CU +3 0.1 230
CD +2 0.1 238
CL +2 0.1 243

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[saxo3]

Rates and beat errors are very good, amplitudes are too low.

[Clowkoy]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Rates and beat errors are very good, amplitudes are too low.

Should I send this back to Rolex?

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[Ron P]

Rolex service guidelines state that 24 hours after fully wound in any of the 5 positions the amplitude should be north of 200 degrees.

[jimi]

Well, I got nothing below 225 in all positions after 24 hours.
Thank you.


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[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Clowkoy

Should I send this back to Rolex?

You have a 2-year service guarantee:

Rolex: "At the end of the service procedure, your watch is returned to you in a protective pouch and accompanied by an international two-year service guarantee covering replacement parts and labour."

I would not send it back immediately but observe the timekeeping and amplitudes.

Originally Posted by Ron P

Rolex service guidelines state that 24 hours after fully wound in any of the 5 positions the amplitude should be north of 200 degrees.

Can you provide the quoted Rolex service guidelines or another official Rolex document, which explicitly proofs that?

I think it probably is more AD watchmaker talk than something officially available for customers.

[214270Explorer]

I believe you are looking for a problem that does not exist.
From what you describe, the operation of the watch is perfect.

[007Sub]

Originally Posted by 214270Explorer

I believe you are looking for a problem that does not exist.
From what you describe, the operation of the watch is perfect.

Agreed. The amp is a touch low but within spec. The delta is very tight. With an avg over 6 of +1.5s/d Wear it and enjoy.

[Ashton_Horologist]

Originally Posted by saxo3

You have a 2-year service guarantee:

Rolex: "At the end of the service procedure, your watch is returned to you in a protective pouch and accompanied by an international two-year service guarantee covering replacement parts and labour."

I would not send it back immediately but observe the timekeeping and amplitudes.


Can you provide the quoted Rolex service guidelines or another official Rolex document, which explicitly proofs that?

I think it probably is more AD watchmaker talk than something officially available for customers.

I don’t have any specific proof to show you but I can verify it as fact. I’m an ex-rolex watchmaker. It specifically states above 200 degrees in the vertical position. From memory a 3135 can’t be over 310 at full wind in the horizontal position.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Ashton_Horologist

I don’t have any specific proof to show you but I can verify it as fact. I’m an ex-rolex watchmaker. It specifically states above 200 degrees in the vertical position. From memory a 3135 can’t be over 310 at full wind in the horizontal position.

Thanks for your participation and the information. I know these numbers and don't doubt the 200 degrees, but I have never seen a Rolex document.

Healthy 30xx and 31xx movements can be much better than 200 degrees after 24 hours; see below my example for an excellent 3130 caliber measured 8 (eight) years after a service!

[3wheeler7]

This might help, sorry about the quality it's a copy of a copy of a copy....

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by 3wheeler7

This might help, sorry about the quality it's a copy of a copy of a copy....

Great, many thanks for this copy!
Using its title I just found the following two pages, which had been published on 28.02.2019 by "SearChart" (aka Mr. Bas).




Source: https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=659683

[3wheeler7]

Interestingly some of the max beat tolerances have been lowered to 0.5ms on your charts, on the one I posted it's 0.8ms across the board.

[Ron P]

It could have been even lower, adjusting beat error is so utterly simple if you have a proper machine like a Witschi. It will however not make much if any difference on the timekeeping of the movement.

[Clowkoy]

Based on the chart, there is no minimum amplitude at 0 hr.
Does it mean anything below 300 is acceptable for 3035?

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[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Clowkoy

Based on the chart, there is no minimum amplitude at 0 hr.

Good point.

Originally Posted by Clowkoy

Does it mean anything below 300 is acceptable for 3035?

Yes, to a certain extent, but I would not say "anything". Maximum achievable amplitudes depend on the specific caliber and how it is regulated. For a freshly RSC serviced 30xx or 31xx movement I would expect a bit more than 250-260 degrees in H-positions.
But highest possible amplitudes is not all, more important (to me) is how slow (or fast) they decrease with time. The X- and D-values matter.

[Clowkoy]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Good point.

Yes, to a certain extent, but I would not say "anything". Maximum achievable amplitudes depend on the specific caliber and how it is regulated. For a freshly RSC serviced 30xx or 31xx movement I would expect a bit more than 250-260 degrees in H-positions.
But highest possible amplitudes is not all, more important (to me) is how slow (or fast) they decrease with time. The X- and D-values matter.

Thank you for your explanation.
Which do you think contributes to low amplitude, weaker spring or inadequate lubrication or other factors?

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[saxo3]

For a mechanical watch movement there are plenty of possibilities why it can have a reduced amplitude, apart from trivial reasons (e.g. insufficient winding).

I am not going to speculate here what are the most common reasons but leave it to an experienced watchmaker such as Ashton.

A (professional) timegrapher certainly is a very good tool to diagnose that.

[Rolex tom]

The tolerances I have state a maximum of 310 degrees at 0hr and a minimum of 200 after 24h in the the vertical positions (CL, CD, CU). 0.8ms is the max beat allowed.

In theory Rolex can service a watch with 260 degress or less at 0hr only so long as after 24hr run down it isn't below 200 degrees vertically. Naturally a watch running at say 250 degrees at 0hr isn't going to be above 200 after 24hr.

[jimi]

Originally Posted by Rolex tom

The tolerances I have state a maximum of 310 degrees at 0hr and a minimum of 200 after 24h in the the vertical positions (CL, CD, CU). 0.8ms is the max beat allowed.

In theory Rolex can service a watch with 260 degress or less at 0hr only so long as after 24hr run down it isn't below 200 degrees vertically. Naturally a watch running at say 250 degrees at 0hr isn't going to be above 200 after 24hr.

As I mentioned in previous post, there was no reading below 225 in all directions after 24 hours.


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[jimi]

So I called Rolex Dallas about 2 weeks ago and was told that acceptable amplitude is 250-290 for a newly serviced watch. I will give it 6-12 months and if it's still low, I will send it back. It's now running consistently +2secs./day with 255-260 amplitude. This watch was running 270-280 before sending it for service because it won't start after not being used for a month.

[502 to Right]

I realize this is an older thread, but I just came upon it while researching some Rolex timing subjects.

I would assume the OP is using a Weishi 1000 or 1900, as those are the most commonly used consumer level timegraphers on the market. Most watch enthusiasts are not dropping multiple thousands of dollars on a Swiss Witschi timegrapher (which is what Rolex is using).

I own a Weishi 1000 timegrapher and have used it for 4-5 years and find it to be accurate enough for my needs. I will note that a watchmaker YouTuber that I watch has compared the Weishi 1000/1900 to a Witschi, and while he found the 1000/1900 to be pretty accurate, the amplitude was the least accurate of the rate, amplitude, beat error readings. Perhaps as much as 15 degrees.

Perhaps that contributed to the OP's "low" amplitude findings.

The video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtS1Uh67fKY

[fsprow]

I think the Weishi Timegraphers are fine for relative measurements but since their crystals are not temperature compensated nor adjustable, I’ve found several examples being 15-20 degrees off versus my Witschi machine. So be careful with strict comparison with norms.

[SearChart]

Originally Posted by jimi

As I mentioned in previous post, there was no reading below 225 in all directions after 24 hours.


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Well then it is running within Rolex tolerance and there's no issue