Antagonist view :: Patek is in worse position compared to AP

[messikens]

Ok so hear my theory out why PP is in a worse market position vs AP at the moment (and notwithstanding the legacy chops of being THE brand):

1. While PP/TS pretended that it didn't want to become the nautilus company, effectively it had been that way for 6+ years at this point, where most purchases were propping up the desire to get one or more Naut/Aqua allocations eventually while taking a hit

2. Most true halo pieces (chime, handpaint, grand comp) are so expensive and so far out from a customer perspective that their relevance is diminished

3. The large in between in the catalogue is both WAY more expensive for MSRP and WAY discounted vs AP in the secondary market

4. Therefore TS really only had the option of creating a fake proxy halo watch (that is $10k more expensive than the Naut - mainly to get people getting used to the inflated MSRPs for all their other watches) while further reducing supply of the true Halo Naut watch... Both in order to ensure people buy their "take a terrible hit immediately" in-between catalogue pieces

While AP I would venture has by and large more "desirable" regular models and more palatable prices and the MSRP hit is not as pronounced as PP for most of them


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cascavel]

I don't see it. PP still has the Aquanaut line and the 5811 along with whatever other Nautilus they still make. The Cubitus will sell out without any problem.
AP has an old and limited product line that new collectors like and older collectors already have.

[1William]

Maybe. I have never been a fan of PP or AP for varying reasons but do acknowledge them as good brands. My AD is a PP AD and it is funny to watch the preening owners and buyers of the brand. I go to most, if not all, of the events at the AD and I always enjoy the PP events for the comic relief of interacting with the owners and fans of the brand. The arrogance of PP starts with Mr. Stern and transcends down the line. I believe PP will be sold in the near future to LVMH or the like and we will then see a much different company. Maybe better but probably not. AP has done well chasing the dollar and are basically a one trick company with some variation.

[John Doyle]

With AP, my 15400 is enough - i don't need to buy anything else. Maybe a Code if they really come up with a great dial / complication that is not uber expensive (maybe smaller size too). Wish they still had the millenary / jules audemars lines so they could experiment with them.

With PP, you truly have countless models you could aspire to purchase, which really look different. The chase is more than half the fun in watch acquisition so I don't mind waiting while trying to save up for the next big purchase I plan, regardless of the delta between the sports models / complications and grand complications. Again it's a just a watch, if i'm not happy, i can take my business elsewhere.

[APhound]

I don’t think they’re a nautilus company.. I have a 5711 as well as a 5968 and 5164r- awesome watches- but nothing compared to the real watches.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gelateria]

Crazy take saying AP has a larger desirable regular models.
As shitty as TS is, the classics and complication models from patek comfortably exceed what ap has.
Hell, Ap doesn't even have a classic and basic dress watch

[APhound]

I think AP does a great job of keeping their line exciting. I’ve never gotten bored and love 95% of what they do. Love the brand and love wearing their watches.
Both PP and AP know what they’re doing, they’re the top 2 period.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[NYG1121]

AP is a one trick pony. PP is not. We should really appreciate that otherwise things would be very boring.

[codecow]

Originally Posted by APhound

I think AP does a great job of keeping their line exciting. I’ve never gotten bored and love 95% of what they do. Love the brand and love wearing their watches.
Both PP and AP know what they’re doing, they’re the top 2 period.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hah I have been debating trading out some Patek and Rolex I have in the safe for that exact reference.

[APhound]

Originally Posted by codecow

Hah I have been debating trading out some Patek and Rolex I have in the safe for that exact reference.

I traded three watches for it. You should do it. It’s incredible. Just do it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ChetBaker]

I rate VC more than AP. I wish they’d kill the Code and get back to making proper dress watches.

[Pfang56]

Originally Posted by messikens

Ok so hear my theory out why PP is in a worse market position vs AP at the moment (and notwithstanding the legacy chops of being THE brand):

1. While PP/TS pretended that it didn't want to become the nautilus company, effectively it had been that way for 6+ years at this point, where most purchases were propping up the desire to get one or more Naut/Aqua allocations eventually while taking a hit

2. Most true halo pieces (chime, handpaint, grand comp) are so expensive and so far out from a customer perspective that their relevance is diminished

3. The large in between in the catalogue is both WAY more expensive for MSRP and WAY discounted vs AP in the secondary market

4. Therefore TS really only had the option of creating a fake proxy halo watch (that is $10k more expensive than the Naut - mainly to get people getting used to the inflated MSRPs for all their other watches) while further reducing supply of the true Halo Naut watch... Both in order to ensure people buy their "take a terrible hit immediately" in-between catalogue pieces

While AP I would venture has by and large more "desirable" regular models and more palatable prices and the MSRP hit is not as pronounced as PP for most of them


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Patek and AP collector here...

Objectively you are probably right - very simply, AP recently surpassed Patek in terms of annual turnover. And this was not because of selling more volume - in fact, AP somehow is selling less volume and delivering a higher annual turnover than PP. And, this is despite PP offering a wider and much higher priced range than AP. What happened here?

I do think AP's management has done a much better job with the business, which is part of the reason why they exceeded PP in turnover. Cutting out the middleman, consolidating points of sale, having more direct customer relation management are just good business decisions that probably has increased their margin, elevated their supply and inventory control,
and enabled them to have a way better understanding of customers.

It's not a surprise PP and Rolex are following suit by cutting dealer networks, increasing direct boutiques, and improving direct customer engagements. PP and Rolex is following AP's leadership and strategy here - and I am really thankful for it. It hopefully can elevate the entire customer relationship experience, improve exclusivity, and take away bad actors.

So yes, from a business perspective, AP is in a much better business and market position than PP. In the end, AP recently surpassed PP in turnover, despite not producing as much as PP. Kudos to AP.

As for my subjective feedback - I am definitely not a Cubitus supporter. It was just a bad business and brand decision to discontinue the 5711, and then seemingly replace it with the Cubitus. If Patek kept the 5711, then I would totally understand the decision to add the Cubitus - but the fact that this is positioned as a *replacement* to the 5711 is just a dumb decision. Like if Porsche and the Piech family decided to discontinue the 911 and create a new line with some controversial styling. Or if Hermes and the Dumas family discontinued the Birkin and replaced it with something more modern. It would just be bad decision making!

And, it's a real shame as the Nautilus will have its 50th anniversary in two years!!! Maybe there is a plan to re-launch it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ikoh76]

Originally Posted by Gelateria

Crazy take saying AP has a larger desirable regular models.
As shitty as TS is, the classics and complication models from patek comfortably exceed what ap has.
Hell, Ap doesn't even have a classic and basic dress watch

I'd argue there are exquisite pieces in Edward Piguet line...

[pam66]

Originally Posted by John Doyle

With AP, my 15400 is enough - i don't need to buy anything else. Maybe a Code if they really come up with a great dial / complication that is not uber expensive (maybe smaller size too). Wish they still had the millenary / jules audemars lines so they could experiment with them.

With PP, you truly have countless models you could aspire to purchase, which really look different. The chase is more than half the fun in watch acquisition so I don't mind waiting while trying to save up for the next big purchase I plan, regardless of the delta between the sports models / complications and grand complications. Again it's a just a watch, if i'm not happy, i can take my business elsewhere.

well, except there is no chase after any PP other than nautilus or aquanaut. if ADs don't want to sell to you you find under retail easily. literally, PP has become the nautilus/aquanaut company, the rest of the collection sells as bait for those two lines.

[so nice]

AP just annihilates PP

[huncho]

Originally Posted by pam66

well, except there is no chase after any PP other than nautilus or aquanaut. if ADs don't want to sell to you you find under retail easily. literally, PP has become the nautilus/aquanaut company, the rest of the collection sells as bait for those two lines.

yeah have to agree, it's really telling when you rarely see any patek outside of the nautilus/aquanaut on celebs/athletes. if they're wearing watches on straps it's usually some cartier or RM

my hot take is that most of patek's complications/dress watches are just too big. also doesn't help that we're trending towards smaller watches now, especially when it comes to dressier watches, because of the huge cartier craze that started this year

you can just scroll through this page on instagram and see that it's mostly all nautilus when it comes to patek
https://www.instagram.com/insaneluxurylife/

[pam66]

Originally Posted by huncho

yeah have to agree, it's really telling when you rarely see any patek outside of the nautilus/aquanaut on celebs/athletes. if they're wearing watches on straps it's usually some cartier or RM

my hot take is that most of patek's complications/dress watches are just too big. also doesn't help that we're trending towards smaller watches now, especially when it comes to dressier watches, because of the huge cartier craze that started this year

you can just scroll through this page on instagram and see that it's mostly all nautilus when it comes to patek
https://www.instagram.com/insaneluxurylife/

yeah except mark wahlberg, who has all watches of the universe:::)))

[huncho]

Originally Posted by pam66

yeah except mark wahlberg, who has all watches of the universe:::)))

yeah already had the cubitus earlier this week lol

[Gelateria]

Originally Posted by ikoh76

I'd argue there are exquisite pieces in Edward Piguet line...

He said regular. I don't think EP is an active line now?
And yea they do have some nice stuff there, but if you are going vintage you aren't really serious suggesting ap has more good stuff than pp right...?

[codecow]

Originally Posted by APhound

I traded three watches for it. You should do it. It’s incredible. Just do it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I found this post very enabling!!!

[mickyd329]

Originally Posted by Pfang56

Patek and AP collector here...

Objectively you are probably right - very simply, AP recently surpassed Patek in terms of annual turnover. And this was not because of selling more volume - in fact, AP somehow is selling less volume and delivering a higher annual turnover than PP. And, this is despite PP offering a wider and much higher priced range than AP. What happened here?

I do think AP's management has done a much better job with the business, which is part of the reason why they exceeded PP in turnover. Cutting out the middleman, consolidating points of sale, having more direct customer relation management are just good business decisions that probably has increased their margin, elevated their supply and inventory control,
and enabled them to have a way better understanding of customers.

It's not a surprise PP and Rolex are following suit by cutting dealer networks, increasing direct boutiques, and improving direct customer engagements. PP and Rolex is following AP's leadership and strategy here - and I am really thankful for it. It hopefully can elevate the entire customer relationship experience, improve exclusivity, and take away bad actors.

So yes, from a business perspective, AP is in a much better business and market position than PP. In the end, AP recently surpassed PP in turnover, despite not producing as much as PP. Kudos to AP.

As for my subjective feedback - I am definitely not a Cubitus supporter. It was just a bad business and brand decision to discontinue the 5711, and then seemingly replace it with the Cubitus. If Patek kept the 5711, then I would totally understand the decision to add the Cubitus - but the fact that this is positioned as a *replacement* to the 5711 is just a dumb decision. Like if Porsche and the Piech family decided to discontinue the 911 and create a new line with some controversial styling. Or if Hermes and the Dumas family discontinued the Birkin and replaced it with something more modern. It would just be bad decision making!

And, it's a real shame as the Nautilus will have its 50th anniversary in two years!!! Maybe there is a plan to re-launch it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree with this take. I tried to reserve judgement on the Cubitus until I saw more live pictures of it. I thought maybe it'll grow on me and it really hasn't. I'm starting to think it was a mistake.


As for PP being a Nautilus/Aquanaut company and AP being a one trick pony argument? Both are true for the most part IMO. Outside of the rare handcraft, MR's, and some grand comps, most of the PP sales from their catalogue is for the chase of Nautilus or Aquanaut. I'm guilty of it too. AP's main watch is the RO in various forms. I do think they do a wonderful job of keeping the line fresh and relevant though. I never get tired of wearing my RO's. The big difference I guess is that the cost of the journey to get an RO is much less expensive than trying to get a Nautilus.

Another factor is that once you establish a relationship with AP, it's for the long haul. A relationship with a PP AD can be gone at anytime if they pull their AD status. Just my 2 cents.

[crispyness87]

Originally Posted by pam66

well, except there is no chase after any PP other than nautilus or aquanaut. if ADs don't want to sell to you you find under retail easily. literally, PP has become the nautilus/aquanaut company, the rest of the collection sells as bait for those two lines.

I think this is a high quality post and hits the nail on the head.
The fact is that we live in an era where sports watches are all the craze. Let’s put aside the minority niche collector that collects dress watches. Difference between AP and Patek is that AP fully (and openly) embraces that fact, and pivots their catalogue to current tastes. Patek (and TS in particular) however provides mixed messaging which I find disingenuous.

PP is a NAUT/aqua company. The rest of their lines are under retail.

[Ichiran]

I was recently at an event with some serious collectors and everyone was crowding around the owner to look at her watch (pic below), despite the presence of George Daniels, Simplicity, AK-06, RRCC, Roger Smith S2, Voutilainen Vingt-8 and 217QRS, and some LE Journes amongst various others in the same event. If I merely read this thread without knowing anything about Patek I would have thought Patek only has Nautilus in its catalog. I don't know what's the market price of this Patek but I don't think the owner cares whether it is "under retail" or not. I would love to own this too even if it is "way under retail" just like the owner.

[NYG1121]

Exactly. People need to separate “under retail” with actual watchmaking. Every watch other than a handful have ALWAYS been under retail. Its an expensive hobby. But appreciate the craftsmanship instead and you will never care about market values.

[Ichiran]

Today there are 159 Patek models available. 28 (18%) are Nautilus and 20 (13%) are Aquanaut. Total 31% of Patek catalog are Sport Patek. By any definition that's not a 1-watch company.

Comparatively at AP, there are 214 models today, which comprise of 131 (61%) RO and 38 (18%) ROO. Total 79% of AP collection are either RO and ROO. The concept is based on ROO too but I did not include... I leave it to you to draw a conclusion.

I'm certain Patek can sell more Nautilus and Aquanaut if they want to but they keep it to 31% only. Is that considered "worse position than AP"? In my view Patek can do that only from a position of strength. You see happy incomings of chrono, annual calendar, calatrava, grand comp and worldtime regularly here.

And there are comments about dress Patek below retail, but that situation is similar to 99.99% of watches in the market. Many of my watches are below market but I buy them to enjoy and wear. It doesn't lower the intrinsic quality of my watches.

[EazyE]

Bashing Patek as a one watch brand while declaring AP superior is the worst case of projection I’ve seen in a long time.

AP has the royal oak, the royal oak for big guys, and the royal oak stepping stone

[messikens]

Originally Posted by EazyE

Bashing Patek as a one watch brand while declaring AP superior is the worst case of projection I’ve seen in a long time.

AP has the royal oak, the royal oak for big guys, and the royal oak stepping stone

That's actually not at all what I said (though pam66 prob said it better / more succinctly) but thanks for coming!

[Gandor]

Patek isn't a 1 watch brand. They have 100 watches no one really wants at MSRP and 2 that people do. Would AP be a better brand if they kept the Jules Audemars, Edward Piguet, and Millinery lines active to create even more arbitrary stepping stones to the Royal Oak?

The biggest difference between AP and Patek at a corporate level is that AP has shown willingness to change it's business to the needs of the customer. While Patek seems to be content being antagonistic to its customers and arrogant of its product.

[Gamut]

Indeed Patek has an abundant line-up of non-sports models in their catalogue, which, arguably, is one of the strongest array within the non-sports arena in the industry.

But values and desirabilities of high-end watches are very fragile, and are prone to be affected by many factors, including prices they retain at auctions and in the secondary market. We cannot simply separate and dismiss this factor, when Patek themselves boast auction performances in every issue of their magazine.

Not that Patek's non-sports models perform poorly relative to other brands in this regard. The problem is that the regular production steel Nautilus models had risen to the status where it trades over the retail prices of precious metal complications, which endangers the perceived value as well as the credibility of retail pricings of those non-sports watches (which are, more profitable than steel models). I think it wasn't the popularity of the Nautilus but this side effect that was problematic.

I suppose the best Patek could do to tackle this problem was to terminate the regular production of steel Nautilus, and to replace it with a square ("not-for-everyone") version of it.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by Gandor

Patek isn't a 1 watch brand. They have 100 watches no one really wants at MSRP and 2 that people do. Would AP be a better brand if they kept the Jules Audemars, Edward Piguet, and Millinery lines active to create even more arbitrary stepping stones to the Royal Oak?

The biggest difference between AP and Patek at a corporate level is that AP has shown willingness to change it's business to the needs of the customer. While Patek seems to be content being antagonistic to its customers and arrogant of its product.

If "nobody wants" how did they sell out their 70,000 watches every year? I love most of their line up.

I find my 2 Patek AD friendly, professional and helpful, and 1 of them I don't buy much from. I visited the Geneva Salon last Sep and Roberto has been exemplary in his service even though I didn't buy anything from them. I also see other SA at the same Salon and they remind me of private banking RM in the way they treat their customers. I even received some small gifts from Roberto. I left happy and impressed. This is nowhere near antagonistic or arrogant to me.