First Post - Need Some Guidance on a Family Mystery

[destruya]

Okay, some backstory:

My maternal grandfather was in Lucerne Switzerland in mid-August of 1938 (right before things started getting spicy) and bought *two* Patek Philippe watches from E. Gubelin's Lucerne shop. One was (as you'll see in the album) a "Gentleman's modern wristwatch in 18 carat gold case, fine 18 jewelled Patek, Philippe, & Cie movement," but the second watch is where I could use some advice or expertise.

Without further ado, here's the album with the pictures: (apparently I need ten posts to post links, so if someone who sees/replies first could help me with that, I'd appreciate it >.>)

First, the band is hideous, I know, but it is actual gold to reasonably match the watch, which apparently was meant to have a leather band originally. But apparently it was sold WITHOUT a band, and smuggled back into the States in my grandfather's watch pocket because he wanted to pay excise tax on the aforementioned 18 jewel Patek and not THIS watch. As the family mystery goes, this watch was apparently a "prototype" of sorts (I'm just relaying what I've been told for years), with a 22 jewel movement.

It has been worn over the years - mostly as a costume piece. A local jeweler, who discovered the 22 jewel "oddity" offered her something like $20k on the spot about 15 years ago, which she didn't accept.

So, can anyone, at least at a glance, give me a little more to go on? I emailed Patek and they referred me to Henri Stern in NYC. I'm not averse to jumping on the Acela for a night or two in Manhattan, but I'd like to be a little less misinformed before making the trip and outlaying the money to have the watch properly authenticated and serviced.

(The other Patek is in the family safe deposit box but apparently is pretty standard Patek fare)

Thanks in advance for any advice or information.

[Vasco]

Welcome on the forum. It's always nice to follow such adventure about a watch.

I can't help much but if I had something rare I would only trust Patek (not an AD but Patek directly, hence one of the 3 salons or maybe Henri Stern agency). Secondly, I wouldn't do anything to the watch (like servicing) until I'm 100% sure replacing original parts won't significantly damage it's value. Some rare pieces may require to be staying in their original condition.

Keep us informed :)

[Andad]

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[jfriedkin]

Photos would be nice. Also, you need to have photos of the movement and inside of the caseback. With this information, you would be able to obtain an extract from the Archives.

There are several vintage scholars on this site that should be able to help, once you have that information.

[destruya]

Originally Posted by jfriedkin

Photos would be nice. Also, you need to have photos of the movement and inside of the caseback. With this information, you would be able to obtain an extract from the Archives.

There are several vintage scholars on this site that should be able to help, once you have that information.

Yeah, I agree photos would be nice, but I need to post ten times to be able to post the Google Images album link to the pictures I took. -_-

(and I can't see an option to PM anyone so I'm guessing that might be post-gated as well)

Some more backstory was that he bought them while on a Catholic Charities trip in mid-August of 1938. He was 21 at the time.

I think the "prototype" thing is a long shot, but it IS possible that it's an uncommon and/or rare watch, since it apparently cost enough to make my grandfather sneak it past customs in NYC because he didn't feel like paying taxes on it.

[destruya]

Thanks to the intervention of the mods, there's now a single picture of the watch in question in the OP.

However, here are the other pictures from the album (apologies that the lighting in the safe deposit box viewing room wasn't better):













Again, the band is *not* original, and the receipt from Gubelin is for the *other* Patek my grandfather bought (and paid excise tax on when returning to the states). I'll have to take a picture of that one the next time I hit up the safe deposit box.

So can anyone at least ID what Patek this MIGHT be? I very much doubt my grandfather was sold a "prototype," but that doesn't leave out the possibility that he bought an "uncommon" watch, and the salesman used the wrong word.

[Vasco]

I'm not an expert but there were quite several variants or those square watches in the 1930's. Different cases, different crowns, a "PP & Co" signature. Hence many aren't prototypes but just variations. Whether some are unique or not is difficult to say. At the time, it wasn't rare to have differences (dial, case, hands, crown) from a model to the other. I'm certainly wrong but I wonder from the pics I saw if the crown isn't more recent than the watch itself (the 1930's crowns were usually thinner, whithout the Calatrava logo).

There were some in the 1940's and afterward as well but often with much more "original" case shapes.

I believe the number inside the case (or more likely inside the caseback) will be a very good way for Patek to identify it precisely (usually identified by a 6-figure number, not a name like nowadays). It seems that many of these square movements were made from LeCoultre ebauches.

I would bring it for ID and order an Extract from the Archives if possible. As for the servicing, I'd recommend to ask experts (maybe sending an email to Collectability's John Reardon?) before any intervention.

[destruya]

Originally Posted by Vasco

I'm not an expert but there were quite several variants or those square watches in the 1930's. Different cases, different crowns, a "PP & Co" signature. Hence many aren't prototypes but just variations. Whether some are unique or not is difficult to say. At the time, it wasn't rare to have differences (dial, case, hands, crown) from a model to the other. I'm certainly wrong but I wonder from the pics I saw if the crown isn't more recent than the watch itself (the 1930's crowns were usually thinner, whithout the Calatrava logo).

There were some in the 1940's and afterward as well but often with much more "original" case shapes.

I believe the number inside the case (or more likely inside the caseback) will be a very good way for Patek to identify it precisely (usually identified by a 6-figure number, not a name like nowadays). It seems that many of these square movements were made from LeCoultre ebauches.

I would bring it for ID and order an Extract from the Archives if possible. As for the servicing, I'd recommend to ask experts (maybe sending an email to Collectability's John Reardon?) before any intervention.

Yeah, my mother recanted on the "prototype" thing and merely said that the last time she'd had it wound, the jeweler remarked that 22 jewels was *uncommon* (at least to him) in a PP watch.

All the same, with a proper leather band and a cleaning, it'd be a really nice-looking watch again. And I can't remember the last time I laid eyes, let alone fingers, on the other PP mentioned in the Gubelin receipt.

Surprisingly, Gubelin *did* get back to me - they claimed there was no customer file created on that date for my grandfather. I suppose he really wanted to cover up his "smuggling" the pictured watch past US customs officials by not providing a "paper trail."

[Vasco]

It will definitely be a very nice watch to experience with the proper strap, especially considering the familial origin :)

[destruya]

Originally Posted by Vasco

It will definitely be a very nice watch to experience with the proper strap, especially considering the familial origin :)

Well, apparently things have been mixed up slightly. My grandfather never wore the watch as-pictured, and gave it to my mother when she was older, who was quite adamant that she doesn't want the current band changed until she's passed on because it's "her watch." HE wore the circular one mentioned in the Gubelin receipt, and it has a slightly more checkered past.

Forgive the blasphemy, but apparently sometime post-war, he decided to replace the band on that one with a new-fangled (for the time) Spiedel band which he could put on more easily.

Lo and behold, the watch started losing time. He brought it into NYC (where he lived at the time until the mid-80s), probably to Henri Stern, and they couldn't figure out what was going on, so they sent it back to Patek in Switzerland who ALSO couldn't figure out what was wrong, and they sent it back without the band. So...my grandfather bought another Spiedel band and it started losing time again.

It turned out the metal in the band was interfering with the function of the watch and when he reverted back to a leather band the watch worked perfectly again.

Question: While I've no problem in covering the cost, what's the *ballpark* I can expect to be charged at HSWA for identification, authentication, and band replacements for two Pateks? Obviously I could just call them tomorrow, but I kind of feel like asking them directly is a little gauche.

[Vasco]

I see, interesting story. I have a similar one with my father's 50's/60's Calatrava, it was a time when the fashion favored gold bracelet instead of the original strap.

The extract is 500 CHF: https://www.patek.com/en/retail-serv...m-the-archives

I believe you can do it yourself but, if going at HSWA, only the Extract would be charged, I don't think there is any identification/authentification additional cost (to be confirmed). A Patek leather strap is charged around 450 CHF (see here https://www.patek.com/en/retail-serv.../service-costs). You can usually order one directly from strap dealers for much less (with a wider variety of colors, materials and shapes). Patek's straps are from Camille Fournet (available online, you have to know the dimensions). Just as a side note, I don't think they are "Patek Philippe" stamped if made directly at CF.

[destruya]

I made an appointment on the 30th of August to have the watch(es) looked at and serviced. I figure at that time I'll have them take the back off the "unknown" watch and I'll put in for the extract then.

Originally Posted by Vasco

I see, interesting story. I have a similar one with my father's 50's/60's Calatrava, it was a time when the fashion favored gold bracelet instead of the original strap.

The extract is 500 CHF: https://www.patek.com/en/retail-serv...m-the-archives

I believe you can do it yourself but, if going at HSWA, only the Extract would be charged, I don't think there is any identification/authentification additional cost (to be confirmed). A Patek leather strap is charged around 450 CHF (see here https://www.patek.com/en/retail-serv.../service-costs). You can usually order one directly from strap dealers for much less (with a wider variety of colors, materials and shapes). Patek's straps are from Camille Fournet (available online, you have to know the dimensions). Just as a side note, I don't think they are "Patek Philippe" stamped if made directly at CF.

[Vasco]

Thanks for the update, please keep us informed :)

[brandrea]

Interested to hear more. Good luck OP

[rolexandlange]

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/27/f...pe-and-me.html

"any watch produced before 1971 — can only be serviced in Geneva."

"This is where Roman, the restoration workshop manager for older watches (there is a separate workshop for watches made after 1971), opened my watch. It is a delicate operation, as opening a watch improperly can dent its case, or worse."

" spent about six hours at the headquarters that day, and about five days later, received a diagnosis and an estimate.

The rumors were right: it is expensive. Franck would have to work his pivoting magic, the total repair time would be six months, and the cost — 11,500 francs, or $11,425."

[destruya]

So I finally have new news.

First, here are some photos of both watches taken at HSWA (Google Drive ZIP file): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-Sr...ew?usp=sharing

Thankfully, both of them worked perfectly after being wound and didn't need servicing. I spoke with Richard Gallo, and conferenced in my mother who 1) owns both watches, and 2) can't travel anymore. Richard let me know that it's a very good thing that both watches *didn't* require servicing as COVID encouraged quite a lot of PP's "vintage" service staff to retire, leaving a skeleton crew of sorts in Switzerland to handle the pre-1970s watches.

I also purchased a new OEM band and buckle for the circular watch (shown in the .zip archive above) as the lizard Spiedel band that was on it 1) wasn't original, and 2) had separated over time. No band was purchased for the rectangular "mystery" watch as my mother still considers that *her* watch and I will not alter it until she, uh, no longer has a use for it.

Richard wasn't able to positively identify the rectangular watch (he said the non-standard band was "throwing him off") but confirmed it "was definitely one of theirs," also remarking that he'd fortunately only had to give someone the bad news of a watch being fake *once*. He said that the watch was definitely uncommon, but not necessarily *rare*. I guess we'll figure it out definitively when I send the information I collected off to PP, but after what I spent for the OEM band and buckle for the circular watch, I'm planning on holding off on that for a month or two.

Also, I was just messaged by someone who *claims* to be a watch dealer in NYC on Reddit who says he thinks the rectangular watch is a "pre-reference Patek" from the 1920s, "before they had serialized model numbers."

Lastly, how closely should I protect the serial numbers? He says, after having posted a ZIP file with them above.... Is it information I shouldn't publicly post?