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ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX
7 October 2024, 05:32 AM
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#1 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: GVA/SMV
Watch: DD/DAY/GMT
Posts: 147
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Auction preview: Monaco Legend October 19th/20th
The autumn sessions starts. Here is the catalogue:
https://cdn.monacolegendauctions.com...-c6c0e0119a83/ Estimates in € correspond to US$ with factor 1,1 (+10%) Please note: Final price is hammer prices plus VAT/sales tax/import duties depending on destination. Lot 17 18238 1989 rubellite dial estimate €30-60k Lot 35 19048 1983 sapphire string dial case and bracelet customised estimate €10-20k Lot 36 116710 2021 Asprey GMT purple dial, amethyst, black/white diamond bezel estimate €50-100k Lot 39 16618 1991 Sub lapis lazuli dial estimate €50-100k Lot 76 116599 2006 Daytona on strap, Roman pavé dial, diamond and ruby bezel estimate €80-160k Lot 88 1803 1964 silver dial estimate €6-12k Lot 104 116759SANR 2008 diamonds and black sapphires bezel estimate €40-80k Lot 108 18238 1989 head only ivory pyramid Roman dial estimate €9-18k Lot 109 18038 1987 wood dial estimate €15-30k Lot 110 6511 stainless steel DD 1955 tropical brown dial estimate €750-1500k Lot 112 18038 1980 Roman champagne dial estimate €9-18k Lot 135 228239 2020 blue dial estimate €30-60k Lot 141 Red stella stick dial (dial only) 80' (18038-26) estimate €10-20k Lot 142 18039 1980 head only, wood dial estimate €20-40k Lot 175 118238 2002 jubilee MOP diamond dial estimate €20-40k Lot 209 6241 1969 YG Daytona John Player, "Paul Newman" dial estimate €750-1500k Lot 217 16238 2001 on strap, ferrite dial estimate €10-20k Lot 220 6511 1956 silver dial, red date wheel estimate €30-60k Lot 225 19018 1980 wood diamond string dial estimate €10-20k Lot 227 6305 1955 RG DJ black glossy lacquered dial estimate €20-40k Lot 241 6098 1952 galaxy black star dial estimate €150-300k Lot 248 18348 1990 pavé dial, diamond dial and bezel, Chinese calendar estimate €30-60k Lot 260 18238 1988 onyx dial, Arabic calendar estimate €35-70k Lot 266 18038 1980 tiger-eye dial, Spanish calendar estimate €30-60k Lot 270 1803 1975 burgundy stella dial, Indonesian calendar estimate €25-50k Lot 272 4316 1976 WG King Midas, onyx and diamond dial estimate €18-36k Lot 273 16008 1977 champagne dial estimate €10-20k Lot 284 18079 1979 tiffany blue stella dial estimate €35-70k Lot 290 18366 1996 silver diamond dial, baguette diamond bezel estimate €40-80k
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time is precious ♛16018 purple roman / ♛16710 sel faded / ♛18038 ruby baguette / ♛18238 myriad gray / ♛18248 blue roman / ♛18248 stick champagne / ♛18349BIC stick white / ♛116505 ivory / ♛126710BLRO |
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9 October 2024, 12:50 AM
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#2 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jan 2022
Real Name: Paul
Location: Cantabrigia - G.B
Watch: ing the detectives
Posts: 2,772
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This will put Miamiclay's adjacent post, on the reported Strong DD values, to the test I guess.
The few auctions I've attended/followed in the EU this summer, have neither been well attended or eliciting strong prices tbh.
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As silent as car lights that move across this room As cold as our bodies silhouetted by the moon I would lie awake and wonder, Is it just me or this the way love is supposed to be? THE THE - Kingdom of Rain. |
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17 October 2024, 03:16 AM
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#3 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: GVA/SMV
Watch: DD/DAY/GMT
Posts: 147
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Perezcope has to say something about the top lots. It will be interesting to see if these watches sell, especially the DD:
https://perezcope.com/2024/10/16/shi...-fake-tiffany/ It's a minefield and unfortunately there is little (to none) information available from the manufacturer. As a bonus there is quite a lot of inconsistency in time periods for the use of dials, lume, fonts... This forum provides some crucial information thanks to great contributors but the absolute truth is sometimes hard to find.
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time is precious ♛16018 purple roman / ♛16710 sel faded / ♛18038 ruby baguette / ♛18238 myriad gray / ♛18248 blue roman / ♛18248 stick champagne / ♛18349BIC stick white / ♛116505 ivory / ♛126710BLRO |
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17 October 2024, 05:27 AM
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#4 | |
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2024 Pledge Member
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: 33139/95460
Posts: 1,390
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Beyond Jose’s meticulous scrutiny, even dilettantes like me can sometimes be left wondering … wtaf? (I’m reminded of how women describe dating in Alaska - “The odds are good, but the goods are odd.”)
E.g., lot #284 is a Day-Date 18079 described as “Extremely rare … White Gold, Bark Finish Engraving and Sky-Blue Stella Dial” (estimated at $38-76K) All of that may be true, … as far as it goes. However, it’s pretty clear that this yellow gold handset and yellow gold furnished dial never belonged in this white gold Day-Date. (The dial’s coronet and printed text are both yellow gold.)  https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-284 .
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20 October 2024, 12:53 AM
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#5 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: GVA/SMV
Watch: DD/DAY/GMT
Posts: 147
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Nothing goes unseen with Clay! You are spot on as always. Well, dilettantes are others definitely.
The results of the first auction day imply hammer prices in the lower range generally. I'll give a breakdown as soon as the first day finishes.
__________________
time is precious ♛16018 purple roman / ♛16710 sel faded / ♛18038 ruby baguette / ♛18238 myriad gray / ♛18248 blue roman / ♛18248 stick champagne / ♛18349BIC stick white / ♛116505 ivory / ♛126710BLRO |
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20 October 2024, 02:31 AM
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#6 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: May 2017
Real Name: Francesco
Location: Italy
Posts: 113
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20 October 2024, 02:42 AM
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#7 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 1
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Unbelievable that that Franken watch ended up with that price.
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20 October 2024, 04:37 AM
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#8 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 2,130
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If it is really sold....
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20 October 2024, 05:33 AM
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#9 |
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2024 Pledge Member
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: 33139/95460
Posts: 1,390
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This one, lot 17, hammered today at the €30K low estimate.
I don’t recall seeing a grossular / rubellite dial with these 8+2 diamond markers in a 18238. Usually these have either pinballs or all 10 identical markers - I’m not at all certain, but I wonder if this dial may have been originally in a later 118238. . |
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20 October 2024, 05:39 AM
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#10 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jan 2022
Real Name: Paul
Location: Cantabrigia - G.B
Watch: ing the detectives
Posts: 2,772
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Oh blimey - A taxi for Monaco Legends Auctions, just perhaps
__________________
As silent as car lights that move across this room As cold as our bodies silhouetted by the moon I would lie awake and wonder, Is it just me or this the way love is supposed to be? THE THE - Kingdom of Rain. |
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20 October 2024, 06:47 PM
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#11 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: GVA/SMV
Watch: DD/DAY/GMT
Posts: 147
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Auction results: Monaco Legend October 1st day
The first day is over. And yes, the hammer prices are on the lower end generally. The contested lots performed not as bad as expected but imho this is due to the Parmigiani marketing and the fact that Monaco is a tax heaven and populated by moneybags.
Estimates in € correspond to US$ with factor around 1,1 (+10%) Please note: Final price is hammer price plus VAT/sales tax/import duties depending on destination. Lot 17 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...eces-35/lot-17 18238 1989 rubellite dial estimate €30-60k hammer €30k Lot 35 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...eces-35/lot-35 19048 1983 sapphire string dial case and bracelet customised estimate €10-20k hammer €12k Lot 36 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...eces-35/lot-36 116710 2021 Asprey GMT purple dial, amethyst, black/white diamond bezel estimate €50-100k hammer €95k Lot 39 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...eces-35/lot-39 16618 1991 Sub lapis lazuli dial estimate €50-100k hammer €95k Lot 76 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...eces-35/lot-76 116599 2006 Daytona on strap, Roman pavé dial, diamond and ruby bezel estimate €80-160k hammer €77k Lot 88 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...eces-35/lot-88 1803 1964 silver dial estimate €6-12k hammer €8,5k Lot 104 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-104 116759SANR 2008 diamonds and black sapphires bezel estimate €40-80k hammer €65k Lot 108 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-108 18238 1989 head only ivory pyramid Roman dial estimate €9-18k hammer €9k Lot 109 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-109 18038 1987 wood dial estimate €15-30k hammer €17k Lot 110 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-110 6511 stainless steel DD 1955 tropical brown dial estimate €750-1500k hammer €920k More to come today with some interesting specimens in the DD range. I'll keep you posted.
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time is precious ♛16018 purple roman / ♛16710 sel faded / ♛18038 ruby baguette / ♛18238 myriad gray / ♛18248 blue roman / ♛18248 stick champagne / ♛18349BIC stick white / ♛116505 ivory / ♛126710BLRO Last edited by foxytimes; 20 October 2024 at 06:48 PM.. Reason: typo |
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20 October 2024, 06:55 PM
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#12 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Uk
Watch: RolexGMT/Tudor7928
Posts: 4,046
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Some big prices still being paid out it would seem. Although the range on the estimates is pretty big
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20 October 2024, 06:59 PM
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#13 | |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: GVA/SMV
Watch: DD/DAY/GMT
Posts: 147
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Quote:
Nevertheless the hammered price around U$33k seems to be rather soft.
__________________
time is precious ♛16018 purple roman / ♛16710 sel faded / ♛18038 ruby baguette / ♛18238 myriad gray / ♛18248 blue roman / ♛18248 stick champagne / ♛18349BIC stick white / ♛116505 ivory / ♛126710BLRO |
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20 October 2024, 07:46 PM
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#14 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 1,099
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Italian watch dealers are notorious for making very clever fakes and franken watches.
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20 October 2024, 10:42 PM
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#15 | |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Northern Europe
Posts: 218
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21 October 2024, 03:13 AM
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#16 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: GVA/SMV
Watch: DD/DAY/GMT
Posts: 147
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Auction results: Monaco Legend October 2024 (completed)
The lower estimate reigns at Monaco's October auction. With a few exceptions. Previously contested lots performed not as bad as expected but imho this is due to the Parmigiani marketing and the fact that Monaco is a tax heaven and populated by moneybags.
A few takeaways: Wood dials didn't fetch premiums, a new (2020) DD40 sells under 30k, a Stella dial only went for 22k, stone dial DDs didn't get beyond 35k - and oh well, the YG Tiffany dial in a WG bark DD went for 70k despite its wrongness. In other words: A (neo-)vintage DD >30-40k must definitely be something special... Here are the selected results: Estimates in € correspond to US$ with factor 1,1 (+10%) Please note: Final price is hammer price plus VAT/sales tax/import duties depending on destination. Lot 17 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...eces-35/lot-17 18238 1989 rubellite dial estimate €30-60k hammer €30k Lot 35 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...eces-35/lot-35 19048 1983 sapphire string dial case and bracelet customised estimate €10-20k hammer €12k Lot 36 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...eces-35/lot-36 116710 2021 Asprey GMT purple dial, amethyst, black/white diamond bezel estimate €50-100k hammer €95k Lot 39 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...eces-35/lot-39 16618 1991 Sub lapis lazuli dial estimate €50-100k hammer €95k Lot 76 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...eces-35/lot-76 116599 2006 Daytona on strap, Roman pavé dial, diamond and ruby bezel estimate €80-160k hammer €77k Lot 88 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...eces-35/lot-88 1803 1964 silver dial estimate €6-12k hammer €8,5k Lot 104 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-104 116759SANR 2008 diamonds and black sapphires bezel estimate €40-80k hammer €65k Lot 108 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-108 18238 1989 head only ivory pyramid Roman dial estimate €9-18k hammer €9k Lot 109 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-109 18038 1987 wood dial estimate €15-30k hammer €17k Lot 110 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-110 6511 stainless steel DD 1955 tropical brown dial estimate €750-1500k hammer €920k Lot 112 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-112 18038 1980 Roman champagne dial estimate €9-18k hammer €11,5k Lot 135 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-135 228239 2020 blue dial estimate €30-60k hammer €29k Lot 141 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-141 Red stella stick dial (dial only) 80' (18038-26) estimate €10-20k hammer €22k Lot 142 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-142 18039 1980 head only, wood dial estimate €20-40k hammer €21k Lot 175 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-175 118238 2002 jubilee MOP diamond dial estimate €20-40k hammer €16,5k Lot 209 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-209 6241 1969 YG Daytona John Player, "Paul Newman" dial estimate €750-1500k hammer €790k Lot 217 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-217 16238 2001 on strap, ferrite dial estimate €10-20k hammer €16k Lot 220 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-220 6511 1956 silver dial, red date wheel estimate €30-60k hammer €39k Lot 225 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-225 19018 1980 wood diamond string dial estimate €10-20k hammer €18k Lot 227 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-227 6305 1955 RG DJ black glossy lacquered dial estimate €20-40k hammer €25k Lot 241 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-241 6098 1952 galaxy black star dial estimate €150-300k hammer €300k Lot 248 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-248 18348 1990 pavé dial, diamond dial and bezel, Chinese calendar estimate €30-60k unsold It seems to be the same watch like this one: https://www.chrono24.ch/rolex/rolex-...id35089920.htm for sale at C24 for around 40k Lot 260 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-260 18238 1988 onyx dial, Arabic calendar estimate €35-70k hammer €35k Lot 266 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-266 18038 1980 tiger-eye dial, Spanish calendar estimate €30-60k hammer €28k Lot 270 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-270 1803 1975 burgundy stella dial, Indonesian calendar estimate €25-50k hammer €27k Lot 272 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-272 4316 1976 WG King Midas, onyx and diamond dial estimate €18-36k hammer €20k Lot 273 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-273 16008 1977 champagne dial estimate €10-20k hammer €11,5k Lot 284 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-284 18079 1979 tiffany blue stella dial estimate €35-70k hammer €70k Lot 290 https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ces-35/lot-290 18366 1996 silver diamond dial, baguette diamond bezel estimate €40-80k hammer €54k
__________________
time is precious ♛16018 purple roman / ♛16710 sel faded / ♛18038 ruby baguette / ♛18238 myriad gray / ♛18248 blue roman / ♛18248 stick champagne / ♛18349BIC stick white / ♛116505 ivory / ♛126710BLRO |
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21 October 2024, 07:10 AM
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#17 | |
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2024 Pledge Member
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: 33139/95460
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Quote:
The MLA site is now showing the prices (in €) with the buyer’s premiums included. https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...-timepieces-35 |
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21 October 2024, 07:28 AM
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#18 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 1,099
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The vintage white gold Cartiers did quite well.
It looks like there's an ever widening gulf for white gold/platinum watches over yellow gold. |
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21 October 2024, 09:11 AM
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#19 |
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2024 Pledge Member
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: 33139/95460
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Looking just at the DDs in this auction, the 4- and 5-digit stone and Stella dials seem to be roughly 2.5-3X what they were five years ago; wood dials up somewhat less, roughly 2X. (The below numbers are approximate, in USD, and include the buyer’s premium but not VAT, duties, etc)
Onyx no-markers“Swiss Made” 18238 on bracelet - $50K Tiger eye no-markers 18038 on bracelet - $40K Oxblood diamond Stella 1803 on strap - $38.6K Wood/string dial 19018 YG Oysterquartz on bracelet - $25.4K WG/Wood 18039 on strap - $30K WG bark 18079 on bracelet with YG blue diamond Stella - $100K For comparison, a more ‘standard’ DD, a YG/champagne 18038 on bracelet, brought $16.3K |
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21 October 2024, 10:39 PM
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#20 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: GVA/SMV
Watch: DD/DAY/GMT
Posts: 147
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Oh yes, I missed the buyer's premium. Unless you live in Monaco you will end paying VAT (around 20% in EU countries, 8.1% in Switzerland) or duty or duty and sales tax (In the US it depends on the declaration of the parts: movement, case and bracelet afaik - so duty is around 2-10%, $0 under $800. Sales tax is not automatically charged on imported goods. However, Customs and Border Protection (CBP) declarations are made available to state tax representatives that may occasionally claim state taxes from the importer.).
As Clay explains the all included auction prices are still high for the buyer. But let's look at it the other way round. How much does the seller get for his watch? There the calculation is rather different. I didn't find the seller's premium with Monaco Legend but in general auction houses charge around 15% of the hammer price. Additional fees apply for expertise, photography or insurance. So from the seller's perspective the numbers are as follows: Onyx no-markers“Swiss Made” 18238 on bracelet - $32K Tiger eye no-markers 18038 on bracelet - $26K Wood/string dial 19018 YG Oysterquartz on bracelet - $16K WG/Wood 18039 on strap - $19K WG bark 18079 on bracelet with YG blue diamond Stella - $65K For comparison, a more ‘standard’ DD, a YG/champagne 18038 on bracelet, brought the seller around $10K. The question is now: Could the seller achieve more $$ on the free market selling to a dealer? And would the buyer pay less on the free market buying from a dealer? It's probably theoretical because these special DD's aren't liquid enough to establish a trusted market price. And the cost of visibility to a wide audience consists in the auction's premiums.
__________________
time is precious ♛16018 purple roman / ♛16710 sel faded / ♛18038 ruby baguette / ♛18238 myriad gray / ♛18248 blue roman / ♛18248 stick champagne / ♛18349BIC stick white / ♛116505 ivory / ♛126710BLRO |
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22 October 2024, 06:29 AM
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#21 | |
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2024 Pledge Member
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: 33139/95460
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Quote:
As to customs duty, I’ve never yet had it add up to more than 2-3%, although I think I’ve only bought from Japan and the EU. The odd part is this - While there are indeed different duty rates for the movement, case, and bracelet, with the less common DDs (and many other vintage Rolex), much or most of the value is not in any of those parts - It’s in the dial! (Idk how customs treats that - In ordinary usage I wouldn’t consider a dial to be part of any of those, but logic is a *highly* unreliable guide to the law … ) |
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22 October 2024, 07:31 AM
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#22 | |
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2024 ROLEX SUBMARINER 41 Pledge Member
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Forty six & 2 are just ahead of me. Follow me on Instagram @ccrolex |
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22 October 2024, 12:52 PM
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#23 | |
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Quote:
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23 October 2024, 08:39 AM
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#24 | |
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2024 ROLEX SUBMARINER 41 Pledge Member
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Forty six & 2 are just ahead of me. Follow me on Instagram @ccrolex |
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