Movement Question

[baseballduck]

This is probably a simple question that I may know but I want expert opinions. When they say a movement has lets say 31 jewels why do they use jewels? Is it so the movement will produce less friction? What does the number of jewels have to do with how smooth the watch runs? Do they use real jewels or artificial?

Thanks, Tyler

Tyler, the jewels are used as bearings in the movement in order to provide less friction. They are synthetic rubies and the contact surfaces can be polished to a very high level of finish. They also are very wear resistant, so are one of the ideal substances for this kind of application.

Oh yes, regarding the number of jewels, this can be due to the quality of the movement (where the movement uses a jewel for a bearing instead of some other material) or it can be due to the complications on the watch (with more functions meaning more bearing points and therefore, more jewels). Hope this helps.

[baseballduck]

Thanks Al. So since Rolex movements are usually 31 jewels that makes them a higher grade movenment then lets say a ETA right? Obviously the quality of the movement itself is better also. BTW is there anywhere you can buy plain Rolex movements? I don't know why I want one. I guess it would be cool to rip apart and see what makes the thing tick.(pun intended)

Tyler

[BruceS]

I think I remember reading in a Sinn catalog where they've developed a special oil that makes it so they don't need the jewels. It totally cuts down on the friction and the watch also doesn't need service as often. I'll have to find that to verify.

Originally Posted by baseballduck

Thanks Al. So since Rolex movements are usually 31 jewels that makes them a higher grade movenment then lets say a ETA right? Obviously the quality of the movement itself is better also. BTW is there anywhere you can buy plain Rolex movements? I don't know why I want one. I guess it would be cool to rip apart and see what makes the thing tick.(pun intended)

Tyler

Not necessarily. There are many factors to consider when comparing the quality of one movement to another - jewels are just one, and as Bruce has pointed out are probably less important than they once were. I don't think there is a way to buy a real Rolex movement, but certainly you can buy watch movements at very inexpensive prices, if that is what you are after. I had a similar curiosity to yours, so signed up for the TZ watch school - it was fun, and I learned a few of the basics at least.

I tried to get a decent pic of a jewel - sorry for the poor quality but I am heading out tonight and don't have time to set-up my light box and all that, so please bear with me........



Above is a photo of a Bulova hand wound movement I've torn apart to see if I can get it running. I tried to capture some of the jewels in the main plate - I added a quick note to try to point out where the hole is in one of the jewels. This hole is where the shaft for whatever item comes through (in this case part of the gear train of the movement), with the jewel acting as the bearing.

Hope this helps.

[BruceS]

That's really cool Al!

[baseballduck]

Thanks Al. I might try to pick up a cheap ETA movement or something to eventually tear apart. I'm really into watch movements for some reason.

Tyler

[BruceS]

OK. I didn't remember correctly. I was thinking of the Sinn 756 Diapal which has a lubricant free escapement. Now I just have to find out again why it's lubricant free. I hate it when I can't remember stuff. Is this what old age is like?

[padi56]

Don't read to much in the amount of jewels in a movement,in the jewel war in the 60s-70s.There were watches boasting up to 100 jewels,but most of them then
was purely for decoration,and a sales gimmick.Like the rest have said Jewels
are just like bearings in a car,to cut down the friction and wear.Normally a
manual wind will have less jewels than a auto.My old Unicorn from 1922 has
only 15 jewels but still beating strong.And as for the ETA movements they are
fine movements, and are in many a high end watch, sometime slightly modified
sometimes not.You will find the ETA 2824-2 in watches from £150 to well over £1000.Tyler you could try a find a old cheap mechanical watch at a flee market or bootsale,for you to take apart and explore the workings of a mechanical watch.

[JJ Irani]

Tyler,

Some watch manufacturers throw in jewels just to glamourise the watch.

Remember, some watches have functional and non-functional jewels. In a Rolex, all 31 are functional. Most Pannys have just 21 jewels, yet that is considered a superb movement.

You really can't judge a watch solely on the number of jewels in it. There are a number of other factors to be considered as well.

JJ

[Baptistman]

Originally Posted by baseballduck

Thanks Al. So since Rolex movements are usually 31 jewels that makes them a higher grade movenment then lets say a ETA right? Obviously the quality of the movement itself is better also. BTW is there anywhere you can buy plain Rolex movements? I don't know why I want one. I guess it would be cool to rip apart and see what makes the thing tick.(pun intended)

Tyler

Hi Tyler,
The ETA movements today come in a variety of grades and finishes, however the basis of ETA has a very rich history linked to the Eterna Watch company, indeed the ballbearing symbol found on Eterna watches dates back to the invention of the ballbearing Rotor by Mr Schild. http://www.eta.ch/
In my personal view lots of the fine companys would of been better left to the annuls of history rather than being owned by a giant, like Swatch owning them. But there again, if it were not for these large corperations, would we still have a swiss watch industry, i don't know. This is one of the reasons I admire Rolex, they have stuck by their guns driven through the storm of the late 70's and 80's, when many fine swiss names were eaten up, Rolex survived by being true to the founders ideals, and making the product themselves, inhouse. Have you seen the picture of Mr N Hayek Chairman of Swatch.
Take a look
http://www.omegawatches.com/index.php?id=255
I think that says it all

To finish, I remember speaking to an Omega Sales rep a while ago and putting the question to him about Omega, that if I purchased an Omega and a variety of other brands, I was really only buying a badge and buying into the Swatch empire, the surprising thing was he agreed with me.

Draw your own conclusions because I'm waffling now.

By the way, this is not meant to come across as an Omega or anything else knocking post, I'm thinking aloud...

Another thought, have I hijacked this post..oppps sorry

Tyler, going on Als recommendation on the TZ school, if you look in the movement links section, I believe Padi posted a link where you can buy movements for under $100. If Im not mistaken, I believe Al bought the handwound movement for his project watch for well under $100.

You do see Rolex movements come up for auction on fleabay from time to time but there are horrendously (and artificially) expensive. Sometimes you see vintage Rolex movements on the bay for under $200.

Or, you could just buy a fake Rollie (with an auto movement) and dissect it. It would also make a good photo essay - and probably a good science project for school, too!

[BruceS]

Originally Posted by Baptistman

Hi Tyler,
The ETA movements today come in a variety of grades and finishes, however the basis of ETA has a very rich history linked to the Eterna Watch company, indeed the ballbearing symbol found on Eterna watches dates back to the invention of the ballbearing Rotor by Mr Schild. http://www.eta.ch/
In my personal view lots of the fine companys would of been better left to the annuls of history rather than being owned by a giant, like Swatch owning them. But there again, if it were not for these large corperations, would we still have a swiss watch industry, i don't know. This is one of the reasons I admire Rolex, they have stuck by their guns driven through the storm of the late 70's and 80's, when many fine swiss names were eaten up, Rolex survived by being true to the founders ideals, and making the product themselves, inhouse. Have you seen the picture of Mr N Hayek Chairman of Swatch.
Take a look
http://www.omegawatches.com/index.php?id=255
I think that says it all

To finish, I remember speaking to an Omega Sales rep a while ago and putting the question to him about Omega, that if I purchased an Omega and a variety of other brands, I was really only buying a badge and buying into the Swatch empire, the surprising thing was he agreed with me.

Draw your own conclusions because I'm waffling now.

By the way, this is not meant to come across as an Omega or anything else knocking post, I'm thinking aloud...

Another thought, have I hijacked this post..oppps sorry

I agree Jon, even if you were waffling That's what I admire most about Rolex too. And well said about the other stuff.

[baseballduck]

Thanks guys, I checked that link that Peter posted and they have some good prices on ETA movements. I have not checked the flea yet. I might I might not. Does anyone have a reccomendation to get a set of basic watch making tools for a good price? I think I have a guy who I can get most of this stuff from that works with my dad. He can probably get me a Rolex movement too. He does most of the clock maintainence and does work on Rolex for a local watch a clock shop. It's just a little something for him to do on the side I guess. If I ever decide to get a used Rollie he's probably the way I'd go too. Definately not the flea.

Tyler

Originally Posted by baseballduck

Thanks guys, I checked that link that Peter posted and they have some good prices on ETA movements. I have not checked the flea yet. I might I might not. Does anyone have a reccomendation to get a set of basic watch making tools for a good price? I think I have a guy who I can get most of this stuff from that works with my dad. He can probably get me a Rolex movement too. He does most of the clock maintainence and does work on Rolex for a local watch a clock shop. It's just a little something for him to do on the side I guess. If I ever decide to get a used Rollie he's probably the way I'd go too. Definately not the flea.

Tyler

I think Al got his kit of tools for aroudn $50. There are tool sets at various online shops too. Go with a local if you can. If your dads buddy is in that position, he is a guy you need to form a close bond with. If he can set you up with a Rollie movement (money would be better spend on an entire watch IMHO) then get to know this guy very well.

I think you should shoot for a previously enjoyed Submariner. Theres lots of them around at better prices than new. This guy may also be able to get you a really sweet deal on one too.

[baseballduck]

Originally Posted by Atomic

I think Al got his kit of tools for aroudn $50. There are tool sets at various online shops too. Go with a local if you can. If your dads buddy is in that position, he is a guy you need to form a close bond with. If he can set you up with a Rollie movement (money would be better spend on an entire watch IMHO) then get to know this guy very well.

I think you should shoot for a previously enjoyed Submariner. Theres lots of them around at better prices than new. This guy may also be able to get you a really sweet deal on one too.

Yea that is what I was thinking. Trust me, I wouldn't get a Rolex movement unless it was well under $100. $75-$50 is probably impossible though. I was actually thinking to go used for the Submariner. It depends what the price is though. If I would only be saving lets say in the $1,000 dollar range, which is still a lot of money would I be better to go new? If I did get a used one and for some reason felt the need for the new style box I could just pick one up on the bay for a good price.

Tyler

Originally Posted by baseballduck

Yea that is what I was thinking. Trust me, I wouldn't get a Rolex movement unless it was well under $100. $75-$50 is probably impossible though. I was actually thinking to go used for the Submariner. It depends what the price is though. If I would only be saving lets say in the $1,000 dollar range, which is still a lot of money would I be better to go new? If I did get a used one and for some reason felt the need for the new style box I could just pick one up on the bay for a good price.

Tyler

Word of advice Ty... the goodies that come with a Rolex are okay, but you actually WEAR the watch.

In my case, I got my ExpII used. Granted it was only a month old (the original owner bought without his wifes permission and well...) and I saved over $1,000 on a brand new watch. If buying used, you can save a lot of $$, but I would stick to looking for one with SEL. The difference in that one link is like night and day, IMO.

Originally Posted by Atomic

I think Al got his kit of tools for aroudn $50. There are tool sets at various online shops too. Go with a local if you can. If your dads buddy is in that position, he is a guy you need to form a close bond with. If he can set you up with a Rollie movement (money would be better spend on an entire watch IMHO) then get to know this guy very well.

I think you should shoot for a previously enjoyed Submariner. Theres lots of them around at better prices than new. This guy may also be able to get you a really sweet deal on one too.

Tyler, the tools were a bit more thanwhat John has stated. In total I probably have something like $300 US invested in tools at this point. If all you want to do is take a movement apart and play, then you could get a cheap set of screwdrivers, a set of tweezers, and one 4X loupe, and you would be able to do most things. If you plan to do this more than once, I would suggest getting good versions of the above, along with a movement holder, some Rodico putty, additional loupe at 10X, parts trays, etc.......it adds up quickly. I also have a hand setting tool, hand removal tool, case opening tools, case holders, etc.

I am certainly not at the level where I would touch a Rolex movement if I ever intended it to run again. I think trying to take one apart and put it back together without any guidance or instructions, and expect it to run after you are done is a tall order. For your first attempt I would suggest using a movement that you don't care about wrecking, or to do the TZ watch school.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by baseballduck

Thanks guys, I checked that link that Peter posted and they have some good prices on ETA movements. I have not checked the flea yet. I might I might not. Does anyone have a reccomendation to get a set of basic watch making tools for a good price? I think I have a guy who I can get most of this stuff from that works with my dad. He can probably get me a Rolex movement too. He does most of the clock maintainence and does work on Rolex for a local watch a clock shop. It's just a little something for him to do on the side I guess. If I ever decide to get a used Rollie he's probably the way I'd go too. Definately not the flea.

Tyler

Check this link Tyler they will send you the a small version free of charge just click on catalogue
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=2394

[BruceS]

You know guys, I think it quite possible that we have a future watchmaker in our midst Tyler, you should check out the TZ school, and look up the watchmaking school in PA, can't remember what it's called. If I recall correctly, the school is free, but they are careful with their selections. Something to think about.

Originally Posted by BruceS

You know guys, I think it quite possible that we have a future watchmaker in our midst Tyler, you should check out the TZ school, and look up the watchmaking school in PA, can't remember what it's called. If I recall correctly, the school is free, but they are careful with their selections. Something to think about.

I was thinking the same thing, Bruce. There is also a school (in NYC, I believe) and I read an article about it and how there is a severe shortage of watchmakers worldwide, particularly in the USA. Certainly something to think about.

[baseballduck]

The guy at the jewelery store where I do most of my buisiness. His family owns it and he says that Swatch is letting people go to watchmaking school for free. I think that all you have to pay is for room and board.

Tyler

[maverick]

Originally Posted by baseballduck

The guy at the jewelery store where I do most of my buisiness. His family owns it and he says that Swatch is letting people go to watchmaking school for free. I think that all you have to pay is for room and board.

Tyler

Both Swatch and Rolex have donated money for watchmakers schools. There in one in Wisconsin and the watchmaker's son I use just graduated from the watchmakers school in PA, all tuition free. =) maverick

[Goodwatch]

And there is a reason why the number of functional jewels is always odd...

[JJ Irani]

Originally Posted by Goodwatch

And there is a reason why the number of functional jewels is always odd...

Not necessarily, Frans. There are quite a few watches out there that have an even number.

For example...that classic example of the IWC Scaffusia you posted the other day....it has 76 jewels.

JJ

[Goodwatch]

Originally Posted by JJ Irani

Not necessarily, Frans. There are quite a few watches out there that have an even number.

For example...that classic example of the IWC Scaffusia you posted the other day....it has 76 jewels.

JJ

Thank you JJ, you're a real gem!

[JJ Irani]

Originally Posted by Goodwatch

Thank you JJ, you're a real gem!

Thank you!! I function perfectly on just TWO jewels!!