A Case for the Lemania-Pateks

[thomaspp]

Over the last decade of collecting, I’ve become fascinated with Lemania based chronographs manufactured by Patek. This post is about 4 references and my thoughts on those watches.



What are they?



“Lemania-Pateks” are essentially (leaving one out :)) four modern discontinued references that once featured prominently in the Patek Philippe catalog: 3970, 5004, 5070 and 5970. All four references are manual winding chronographs and have a base caliber movement created by Lemania (CH27-70 in 5070, CH27-70Q in 3970 / 5970 and CHR27-70Q in 5004). Prior to using Lemania calibers, most Patek chronos were Valjoux based. Lemania was once an independent watch and movement manufacturer and it no longer exists today (as Lemania). Lemania made movements and other components for a number of historically important watches, including early omega speedmasters (Caliber 321).



Why many collectors love them?



1. 3970



The 3970 is the perpetual calendar chronograph that replaced Ref. 2499. Ref. 2499 is a 38mm Valjoux based chronograph made in very limited numbers (less than 350 examples) and described by some as the “ultimate” or “best” watch ever made. Ref. 3970 was made for a long time (1986 – 2004) and made in much greater numbers as a result.



Ref. 3970 has a perfectly balanced dial with no gaps and beautiful vintage style pushers to activate the chronograph. It is 36mm in size however and for that reason alone seems to be overseen by many collectors. I own a second series 3970J and find it to be one of the most comfortable and wearable watches I’ve ever owned (my watch is pictured below). The first and second series of the 3970 are distinctive because they have rectangular markers (instead of diamond tip markers) and leaf hands (instead of stick hands), and also have creamier dials. The first series was made in a very limited number (about 100) and the second series had a short run. Hence many collectors seem to agree that 1st and 2nd series 3970s are a great “value proposition” or are undervalued and make for an interesting investment. Regardless of either factor, it is a real pleasure to own and wear any 3970!















2. 5004



Ref. 5004 is a perpetual calendar splits seconds chronograph which was made during 15 years. This is a watch that is adored by many serious collectors. It is essentially a 3970 with a splits seconds module placed on top of the existing movement and encased in a thicker case (but also 36mm). The dial is distinctive because of the Arabic markers. 5004 was made in much more limited numbers and just as it was about to be retired, Patek made a couple of hundred examples in steel! It is a watch I often dream about and a watch that some collectors believe has the investment or appreciation potential of Ref. 2499. For me personally there are two downsides: (i) it is thick in light of its overall size and (ii) it is comparatively very expensive when you compare what you are getting in a 1st and 2nd series 3970.





















3. 5970





Ref. 5970 is the immediate predecessor perpetual calendar chronograph that replaced Ref. 3970. It is a robust and “modern” 40mm and has a great feel on the wrist. The flat pushers (instead of the pump pushers on the 3970) are a dream. I personally find the watch to be on the bigger side of ideal for a watch with a calendar complication – a complication I associate with a dress watch. Ref. 5970P is a very magical watch despite its legibility and its higher production numbers (most seem to think 5970P was made in higher numbers than its gold counterparts). Regardless, Ref. 5970 is a dream PCC and definitely a watch that could be anyone’s 1-watch collection from now until the end of time.















4. 5070





Lastly, Ref. 5070 is a two register manual wind chronograph. Ref. 5070 was Patek’s first manual wind chronograph after a long break in producing and releasing any comparable watch (the predecessor to the 5070 was Ref. 1463 from the late 1960s, a watch famously owned by John F. Kennedy among others). The 5070 was made during 11 years (1998-2009). The watch is a pure sports chronograph in its oversized case with a stepped bezel and sporting dial, and there is just nothing else that quite compares to a 5070. I have owned two 5070s and although I will be the first to admit it is a bit big, it is just magic on the wrist and a great pleasure to own. Pictured below is my 5070P which was made during a short 8-month period and it is believed that less than 200 examples of this watch were made.















What lies ahead?



Lemania-Pateks have a special feel and a common heritage: (i) they were all designed during the years in which Mr. Philippe Stern was at the helm of the venerable watchmaker and (ii) they are all very sporty and yet they also exude class and elegance. Some hypothesize that the production of these 4 references was rather controlled due to the movement manufacturing being outsourced and Patek was restricted to producing only so many examples for which Lemania could timely deliver base movements.



The foregoing considerations have seemed to boost the legend and price of all 4 references at auction and in the private marketplace ever since their discontinuation as they have continued to sell for strong results at auction and among privates.



I think all 4 references have a very solid future ahead, and I wonder if in the near future we won’t look back at this time as a missed buying opportunity for the great Lemania-Pateks!



Thanks for reading. Now, tell me what are your opinions?

[dysondiver]

wow , now thats a right up , interesting read.
the top 3970 is stunning.

[Chiboy]

Great write-up and history/summary! Those are all beautiful.

I admit that for me the idea of a watch being an “investment piece” is a double-edged sword. I don’t want to worry about wear or vale, I just want to enjoy the watch.

Thanks for taking the time to put this together.

[watch-guy.com]

I think that the 3970 represents great value

For some reason, the market has overlooked this great watch

For me, I have the 5070 and I just love it


Thanks again

Julian

[kneedeep]

Enjoyable read. 3970J and 5070P are the most beautiful to my eyes.

[incontrol]

Very nice write up Thomas. You make me think about going vintage Patek.


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[mps354]

Tremendous write up! I hope to get a 5970 and 3970 to add to my 5070 at some point

[cozy2009]

I agree with all your points. I've had two 5070's in the past fortunately. I really want to get the 3970. I love your 2nd series shot. In some ways I think it's better than the 5970 if you agree with the size!

[Hamish]

Good write up

[soundserious]

Bravo!

[AK797]

The Lemanias are highly coveted and rightfully so.

[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by dysondiver

wow , now thats a right up , interesting read.
the top 3970 is stunning.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by Chiboy

Great write-up and history/summary! Those are all beautiful.



I admit that for me the idea of a watch being an “investment piece” is a double-edged sword. I don’t want to worry about wear or vale, I just want to enjoy the watch.



Thanks for taking the time to put this together.

Thanks! I can’t see myself buying 100k + Watches that don’t have good value retention or some investment value....

Originally Posted by watch-guy.com

I think that the 3970 represents great value



For some reason, the market has overlooked this great watch



For me, I have the 5070 and I just love it





Thanks again



Julian

Agreed!! The Best Buy in all of Watches right now arguably.

Originally Posted by kneedeep

Enjoyable read. 3970J and 5070P are the most beautiful to my eyes.

Thanks! I tend to agree.






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[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by Hamish

Good write up

Thanks!

Originally Posted by mps354

Tremendous write up! I hope to get a 5970 and 3970 to add to my 5070 at some point

Many thanks!

Originally Posted by incontrol

Very nice write up Thomas. You make me think about going vintage Patek.


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Wonderful! Lemania Pateks are modern Watches though but also a great perk!

Originally Posted by cozy2009

I agree with all your points. I've had two 5070's in the past fortunately. I really want to get the 3970. I love your 2nd series shot. In some ways I think it's better than the 5970 if you agree with the size!

Awesome! I personally prefer 3970 to 5970.

Originally Posted by AK797

The Lemanias are highly coveted and rightfully so.

Originally Posted by soundserious

Bravo!

Indeed!



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[vipereaper30]

You've given some excellent reasons to consider vintage Pateks and those in your collection are superb choices!

[unknown]

thanks!
It's been a long time that I saw such a quality post

[enjoythemusic]

Thanks for wonderful write-up. Had a 3970er (third edition) and it wore a bit small yet was wonderfully balanced. Prices have fluctuated quite a bit, with the 5970 being more 'stable' price-wise. JMHO



Over the years Patek Philippe has employed other base movements within their mechanical timepieces such as the ultra-thin Piaget 9P.

[codecow]

3970 does seem like a really good value, what would you think versus 5270?

[Racerdj]

Excellent write up!!!

[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by vipereaper30

You've given some excellent reasons to consider vintage Pateks and those in your collection are superb choices!

Many thanks. All of the 4 references I mentioned are modern, not vintage. Best

Originally Posted by unknown

thanks!
It's been a long time that I saw such a quality post

Thanks my friend!



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[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Thanks for wonderful write-up. Had a 3970er (third edition) and it wore a bit small yet was wonderfully balanced. Prices have fluctuated quite a bit, with the 5970 being more 'stable' price-wise. JMHO



Over the years Patek Philippe has employed other base movements within their mechanical timepieces such as the ultra-thin Piaget 9P.

Many thanks! Yes agree with your assessment. Prices for 3970 are quite low at the moment and seems to me such a great value in those very special Watches.


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[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by Racerdj

Excellent write up!!!

Thanks my friend!


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[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by codecow

3970 does seem like a really good value, what would you think versus 5270?

My personal opinion is that if you can get comfortable with the size of the 3970 (it is actually quite wonderful and I've trended towards smaller watches because of the comfort and class they provide) then yes 3970 is probably the "best buy" in all of watches at the moment. Especially a 1st or 2nd series!

Unfortunately I do not think the collector market will be kind to the 5270 long term. Although the apertures was innovative and gave the dial a cleaner look there are many factors to consider: too many dial variants, production numbers (if the 3970 was the first serially produced PCC, the 5270 was the first massed produced PCC), among other factors. My personal opinion of course.

[nyc2la]

Originally Posted by thomaspp

My personal opinion is that if you can get comfortable with the size of the 3970 (it is actually quite wonderful and I've trended towards smaller watches because of the comfort and class they provide) then yes 3970 is probably the "best buy" in all of watches at the moment. Especially a 1st or 2nd series!



Unfortunately I do not think the collector market will be kind to the 5270 long term. Although the apertures was innovative and gave the dial a cleaner look there are many factors to consider: too many dial variants, production numbers (if the 3970 was the first serially produced PCC, the 5270 was the first massed produced PCC), among other factors. My personal opinion of course.

Thomas, thanks for the write-up on the Lemania movements. Well done!

Regarding the 5270 (the quoted post above), the introduction of the line was in 2011, so the total current run for all of the metals / series has been 7 years so far. I agree there were some mistakes along the way, including the “chin” dials, but who knows, maybe the “chin” dials become collectible (?).

Further, each of the three series had a fairly short production run. For example, the 3rd series Gs (blue and white dials, no chin) only had a 3 year run. That’s fairly short, no? The R (and there is only one series of the R, which is the current one) is in its third year now. I wouldn’t be able to extrapolate, but if anyone can, I’d be interested to know how many of these handmade in-house movements would have been made during the 3 year run of the 3rd series Gs. I wouldn’t suppose the were mass produced, though.

I think the big concern for collectors is that since the movement is in-house, there is a fear that the 5270 will be mass produced. Keeping the production runs tight (3 years, for example) may offer some comfort that this will (is) not be the case. Time will tell, though.

Lastly, to your point, the Lemania movement Pateks are a known entity, and they are no longer being produced. So with supply done, you’re sitting pretty with your two gorgeous and collectible pieces!

[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by nyc2la

Thomas, thanks for the write-up on the Lemania movements. Well done!



Regarding the 5270 (the quoted post above), the introduction of the line was in 2011, so the total current run for all of the metals / series has been 7 years so far. I agree there were some mistakes along the way, including the “chin” dials, but who knows, maybe the “chin” dials become collectible (?).



Further, each of the three series had a fairly short production run. For example, the 3rd series Gs (blue and white dials, no chin) only had a 3 year run. That’s fairly short, no? The R (and there is only one series of the R, which is the current one) is in its third year now. I wouldn’t be able to extrapolate, but if anyone can, I’d be interested to know how many of these handmade in-house movements would have been made during the 3 year run of the 3rd series Gs. I wouldn’t suppose the were mass produced, though.



I think the big concern for collectors is that since the movement is in-house, there is a fear that the 5270 will be mass produced. Keeping the production runs tight (3 years, for example) may offer some comfort that this will (is) not be the case. Time will tell, though.



Lastly, to your point, the Lemania movement Pateks are a known entity, and they are no longer being produced. So with supply done, you’re sitting pretty with your two gorgeous and collectible pieces!

Hey Stephen! Thanks for this my friend. I wanted this post to be about the discontinued Lemania Pateks but I suppose comparisons are unavoidable when we talk watches.



You make a good point about short periods of production for certain dials and certainly some configurations seem to have faired better than others. I have no real evidence other than what one perceives by seeing inventory at ADs, inventory at watch shows and conventions, and talking to collectors and others in the industry or hobby, but I would venture to guess that already many more of the current production watches exist than were made of the predecessors (more 5204s than 5004s (1300 produced?), more 5270s than 5970s (3200 produced?) and so on). I suppose one could argue that Patek has more exposure and larger customer base today than it did before - I have no idea.



I guess my take is that buying discontinued references has its upsides and downsides. As does buying current production watches which helps position us to buy limited editions and so on, so there is no right answer here I suppose. Always happy to chat more offline!

[SL BRABUS]

Thank you my friend for taking your time on sharing your expert experience.....

Learn a lot form you......

You have great watches collection as always.....

Best Regards,
Tony

[GB-man]

Great read thomas! I love what you’ve done with the 3970, your strap selection is on fire

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by thomaspp

Many thanks! Yes agree with your assessment. Prices for 3970 are quite low at the moment and seems to me such a great value in those very special Watches.

Possibly, yet the small dial makes it wear a bit small too. Probably $80k max for excellent example would be 'all in' in price right now for third gen 3970ER (rose gold) with box, original certificate, pusher, both original case backs, etc.

Might get below $70k nowadays, so best bet is to ALWAYS call around to dealer and see what they'll offer to buy a 3970 (or whatever), as that's your starting point too.

[LitzDoc]

Great assessment and advice. Thank you.


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[Passionata]

great write up , thanks for sharing it

[kronomentro]

Terrific post regarding these 4 modern icons!