The Holy Trinity of watch brands...

[HAL330]

Since I could remember, and I've been collecting watches since the late 80's, well before any of the hype started... when you could buy a Rolex at 15-20% off at the dealer all day long... a PP, AP or VC for the same discounts..

We have always understood that the "Holy Trinity" of brands was

Patek Philippe
Vacheron Constantin
Audemars Piguet

Sure, brands like Lange, FP Journe and others make objectively better or "as good" watches... And sure Rolex is a more popular and great brand, as is JLC, Gerrard Perregaux, Zenith, Cartier etc.. but these three storied and in some cases (VC) over 265 year old brands have always been, and will always be "The Holy Trinity" .. Even this idiot says that the term "Holy Trinity" isn't something that changes over time...

Meanwhile I come across this on the Watchbox channel (they're not usually idiots).. He re-writes the Trinity at around 5 min.. I had to rant.. what is this guy talking about JLC? not VC on the Trinity?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd5ZAmXzw-8

[PBJ1925]

Haven't seen the video but I can see the argument as JLC has made calibers / movements for just about everyone.

With that said, I'd keep the 3 as status quo but makes for a fun discussion.

[HAL330]

Originally Posted by PBJ1925

Haven't seen the video but I can see the argument as JLC has made calibers / movements for just about everyone.

With that said, I'd keep the 3 as status quo but makes for a fun discussion.

I do miss the old days when we talked horology, movement finish, and pedigree and less about investment value and hype... The hobby has changed.

[beshannon]

Originally Posted by HAL330

I do miss the old days when we talked horology, movement finish, and pedigree and less about investment value and hype... The hobby has changed.

Completely agree. JLC is very under rated and arguably every bit as good as Patek

[Gebbeth]

I know this argument/discussion has been made many times, but when it comes to high-end, highest level horology, I can no longer include AP or Vacheron in the "holy trinity." They have not really advanced the watch game in some time and rely heavily on one model line, the Royal Oak for AP and the Overseas for Vacheron.

I would substitute ALS for at least one of the holy trinity because they consistently make beautifully made and engineered watches of various levels of complication and seem to keep pushing the envelope while still making watches that are beautiful on the outside and perhaps even more beautiful on the inside.

ALS also does rely on one model line, and can point to watches like the Zeitwerk, the Datagraph, and the Odysseus among others as "flagship" models. They make simple dress watches and mega-complicated ones, and now sports models. So they have to be included at this point.

#3 for me is difficult. There are credible arguments that JLC and Omega should be in because of the variety of the watches they make, their technical expertise, and overall quality. But the desirability index is relatively low.

I would similarly not include Rolex. They are #1 by a mile in sales and volume, and they make some killer watches, but they do not push the envelope and don't really care about movement finishing or looks. They are a sports watch company first and last.

I would argue that right now, perhaps FP Journe is taking up that mantel, but they are young and have not existed for the length of time to show consistent excellence and high-horology. Their designs can also be somewhat polarizing.

Perhaps in the current configuration, there isn't really a holy trinity anymore.

[Lucien]

Originally Posted by HAL330

Since I could remember, and I've been collecting watches since the late 80's, well before any of the hype started... when you could buy a Rolex at 15-20% off at the dealer all day long... a PP, AP or VC for the same discounts..

We have always understood that the "Holy Trinity" of brands was

Patek Philippe
Vacheron Constantin
Audemars Piguet

Sure, brands like Lange, FP Journe and others make objectively better or "as good" watches... And sure Rolex is a more popular and great brand, as is JLC, Gerrard Perregaux, Zenith, Cartier etc.. but these three storied and in some cases (VC) over 265 year old brands have always been, and will always be "The Holy Trinity" .. Even this idiot says that the term "Holy Trinity" isn't something that changes over time...

Meanwhile I come across this on the Watchbox channel (they're not usually idiots).. He re-writes the Trinity at around 5 min.. I had to rant.. what is this guy talking about JLC? not VC on the Trinity?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd5ZAmXzw-8

Just have to comment, since you make a point of collecting watches long before the hype, the irony that your list of watches in your signature only include the latest hype watches (should have been a Daytona there for full points). Didn´t you really find any interesting watch the first 30 years of collecting, that is from before the hype?

[HAL330]

Originally Posted by Lucien

Just have to comment, since you make a point of collecting watches long before the hype, the irony that your list of watches in your signature only include the latest hype watches (should have been a Daytona there for full points). Didn´t you really find any interesting watch the first 30 years of collecting, that is from before the hype?

I guess I’m just ahead of the crowd. I paid $49,000 for my Nautilis rose gold, do you really think I was buying it for/during the hype?

I’ve owned literally dozens of watches over the last 30 years, in that time I learned a lot about what I like and what I wear. The list you see is just where I’m at right now .. happily static. Would I like an FP Journe or a Philippe DuFour? Sure … I’m just not that rich(or well connected), nor do I want to part with my collection.

[kunlun]

Originally Posted by Gebbeth

I know this argument/discussion has been made many times, but when it comes to high-end, highest level horology, I can no longer include AP or Vacheron in the "holy trinity." They have not really advanced the watch game in some time and rely heavily on one model line, the Royal Oak for AP and the Overseas for Vacheron.

Have you looked at the number of patents AP has for the last decade? There are a number for the super sonnerie alone.

The idea of a trinity in watchmaking is weird and mostly an inappropriate carry-over from religion.

[ChetBaker]

AP certainly should be out. I recently looked at their website and I found AP’s collection in a very sorry state. It’s just Royal Oak and offshoots and the failed Code. There’s literally nothing else. Every complication and innovation they have gets shoehorned into that “iconic” octagon. I don’t they’re even trying anymore at this point. VC is doing much better at offering a range of collections catering to all tastes and budgets.

[Big Tex Rolex]

What was the criteria for the naming of the original “Holy Trinity” of watches ?

Were they the 3 most popular watches at the time ?

Were they considered to be the best made watches at the time ?

I think we could concede they are no longer that at present day.

Popular ? Absolutely. The most popular ? Definitely not.

Best made ? Well made, yes … best made, no.

To me, the “Holy Trinity” is an antiquated label for a group of watch brands from the past, that does not apply to present day offerings.

Popular and well made, just not the best by present day standards.

Depending on the criteria, I don’t think anyone would list those same Top 3 as the present day Holy Trinity …

What are the 3 most popular watch brands today ?

What are the 3 best made watches today ?

[Easy E]

There was a thread not too far back that beat this topic to death. I'm not sure if there was or will be a new consensus on what defines the Trinity going forward. Why only a Trinity? How about the 12 watch making Holy Apostles? That seems easier.

[HAL330]

So what we have here is the classic "Progressive" vs "Conservative" position .. the latter being me. For me, baring major cost cutting, gutting of a brand, and abandoning the traditions that set them at the top, they remain at the top.

There are DOZENS of brands making objectively more technically advanced watches, including if you want to take it to the extreme the Grand Seiko Quartzdrive .. but in the end, the Holy Trinity of watch making is far more than just bleeding edge tech, or new watches every year.. it's tradition, is heritage, it's CONSISTENCY..

Think Porsche 911 (clearly my favorite sports car)... vs latest bleeding edge super car brands... right? Will those new brands ever have the heritage of the legendary 917?

BTW, other than Lucien trying to turn this personal by calling me out on my watch collection, this is the kind of discussion I remember on the internet years ago when Timezone was the spot and we actually learned something about horology and not just what's a good investment and what the price or a watch is on Moda lately.

[AF_Rob]

Out of the holy trinity brands, only one model interests me, the Aquanaut. I have little care of the subject.

I’ve always felt JLC was underrated and that Grand Seiko is one of the best in the business, but the Swiss snobbery won’t ever see it. When it comes to pushing technology in the space, few that I’m interested do it better.


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[HAL330]

Originally Posted by AF_Rob

Out of the holy trinity brands, only one model interests me, the Aquanaut. I have little care of the subject.

I’ve always felt JLC was underrated and that Grand Seiko is one of the best in the business, but the Swiss snobbery won’t ever see it. When it comes to pushing technology in the space, few that I’m interested do it better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I want to love GS.. I own a White Birch "Hi-beat" and it's a beautiful caliber, and that 5HZ is cool... BUT, after 2 attempts to regulate it to what they claim (I think it's plus 8 / minus 4) it's still runs about 30 seconds fast in 24 hours... whereas my latest VC with the cal 5100 in-house movement is +1, my Rolex with the 3235 is +2 and my Speedmaster with the Cal 321 is +3 (which is saying a lot for the Lemania 2310)..

I think accuracy isn't the be all and end all, but that's a lot for a new movement to be off by.

[AF_Rob]

Originally Posted by HAL330

I want to love GS.. I own a White Birch "Hi-beat" and it's a beautiful caliber, and that 5HZ is cool... BUT, after 2 attempts to regulate it to what they claim (I think it's plus 8 / minus 4) it's still runs about 30 seconds fast in 24 hours... whereas my latest VC with the cal 5100 in-house movement is +1, my Rolex with the 3235 is +2 and my Speedmaster with the Cal 321 is +3 (which is saying a lot for the Lemania 2310)..

I think accuracy isn't the be all and end all, but that's a lot for a new movement to be off by.

That’s a shame, Sam. GS hangs their hat on the finish and accuracy of their movements. Your experience is surprising to hear.


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[HAL330]

Originally Posted by AF_Rob

That’s a shame, Sam. GS hangs their hat on the finish and accuracy of their movements. Your experience is surprising to hear.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

what really bothered me is after doing much research on the topic, it's a "known" issue and mine wasn't a unique case..

That said, many high-horology brands don't make any claims to accuracy .. but as with my new VC Overseas, it still keeps an amazing +1.

[sportsfan0704]

There is no way JLC is 'above' VC when it comes to a "holy trinity" which in itself is a weird moniker. What VC has done over the last 100 years in terms of case shapes and designs is unparalleled among AP and Patek. Sure, JLC gets the name "the watchmakers watch maker" and yes, I love my reverso, but the brand is no where near VC when it comes to the total package of quality AND design. Also VC has been around much much longer.

At the end of the day, its a stupid moniker we WIS use here. What about FP? Moser? What about some of the remarkable think movements Bvlgari has come up with. What about Breguet, which came up with unique hands, numerals, tourbilions etc. The point is, there is just no way to narrow down watches to 3 supreme brands that rise above all else.

[enjoythemusic]

If it's just accuracy, i re-regulated this to +/-2 seconds a day. Sadly, no display back to see the 'classic' movement. Same nice pebbly dial as a Patek too.

Hodinkee_Light_Dial.jpg

[HAL330]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

If it's just accuracy, i re-regulated this to +/-2 seconds a day. Sadly, no display back to see the 'classic' movement. Same nice pebbly dial as a Patek too.

Attachment 1330223

I think I'd rather just use my iPhone

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by HAL330

I think I'd rather just use my iPhone

But... but... the OEM leather strap is actually more comfortable than many of the $$$ straps on my very upscale pieces. Seriously, amazingly comfortable.

Ok, I derailed this thread enough.

Carry on my wayward son.

[PBJ1925]

Originally Posted by sportsfan0704

What about Breguet, which came up with unique hands, numerals, tourbilions etc. The point is, there is just no way to narrow down watches to 3 supreme brands that rise above all else.

Good call on Breguet in regards to their history, and innovations. A shame their boutique in the Bellagio shut down, I always enjoyed stopping by to check out the latest and greatest.

During our last TRF GTG, the Breguet rep who presented in SF was a pretty engaging, you wonder why they can't seem to find that right marketing plan.

[HAL330]

Originally Posted by PBJ1925

Good call on Breguet in regards to their history, and innovations. A shame their boutique in the Bellagio shut down, I always enjoyed stopping by to check out the latest and greatest.

During our last TRF GTG, the Breguet rep who presented in SF was a pretty engaging, you wonder why they can't seem to find that right marketing plan.

I feel like if they were owned by Richmont and not Swatch they'd be in a better place... as with Blancpain.. Richmont knows how to manage high horology brands (basically provide capital and keep them to themselves)... Swatch is more bottom line driven and trying to squeeze every penny out of every brand they own.

[nickorette]

Holy Trinity to me would imply the best of the best, the top quality with an impactful history/lineage and prestige.

AP has a great history, but the reliance on the Royal Oak exclusively hasn't really moved the game forward. They have definitely sold out by outsourcing some of their movements to other suppliers. Spot is out for me.

Lange slides in and takes their place. They have consistently moved the game forward and kept the Swiss on their toes when it comes to movement finishing, quality and innovation.

Vacheron keeps its spot. Consistently makes new innovative products and keeps its history alive with the historiques collection. Although the fifty six collection was a bad move imo, making an "entry" line without the hallmark cheapens the brand.

Patek has consistently maintained it's quality over time, and maintained exclusivity and reverance within the watch industry. My gripes are the overreliance on the 215, 240 and 324 in basically everything, but they seem to be coming around with new movement releases, albeit in some marmite new designs

I love love love JLC, but they focus too much on mid-tier luxury, the gems like the Duomètre and some of the special edition pieces that really show their innovation and artistry get lost in the sea of Reverso and Polaris variations. Don't get a spot in the trinity, however they are in my personal top 3.

[ajw45]

Originally Posted by HAL330

I feel like if they were owned by Richmont and not Swatch they'd be in a better place... as with Blancpain.. Richmont knows how to manage high horology brands (basically provide capital and keep them to themselves)... Swatch is more bottom line driven and trying to squeeze every penny out of every brand they own.

I think you have that backwards. Other than Cartier, Richemont is always cost cutting all their brands, see Panerai. Almost can stop there, but why. Vacheron? Enjoy that 56 with the valfleurier base movement while the boutique is bending you over for an orange strap while they send your OS perpetual to the same crap Richemont svc center in Dallas where they also service Baume and Mercier. Not to worry, since richemont owns fleurier, IWC and all the other brands can call those crap movements in house. Cartier and JLC have both been having QC issues lately, Montblanc watches are so low rent Richemont doesn't even service them anymore. In fact, Lange is the only brand that they haven't messed up... yet... btu the move to a company owned boutique model screwing all the legacy customers is a good start... did I mention panerai?

At least Blancpain and Breguet have maintained relatively consistent quality over time...

[GradyPhilpott]

Maybe a "Holy Trinity" of watches should be relegated to the "ash heap of history," along with childish nicknames.

[GradyPhilpott]

Originally Posted by ajw45

I think you have that backwards. Other than Cartier, Richemont is always cost cutting all their brands....

I agree. Richemont has turned IWC into an expensive, practical joke.

[enjoythemusic]

We all know Richemont's ongoing comedic sadness.... so it would be a VERY bad idea for Breguet, though do agree the brand deserves much better.

Originally Posted by GradyPhilpott

Maybe a "Holy Trinity" of watches should be relegated to the "ash heap of history,"

Amen, but the problem is... it seems for some strange reason(s) some still believe this 1960s fable. Not a single person, not ONE PERSON, can tell us WHO voted for them and exactly HOW they became named as Holy Trinity.

i have a feeling the Holy Trinity in the 1960s was an age-old marketing play that now over 60 years later... which we all know has looooooong outlived its relevancy.

Food For Thought:
The year 1900 is to 1960
As 1960 is to 2020

Be smart, don't fall for the Holy Trinity Trap!

[ChetBaker]

Originally Posted by ajw45

Vacheron? Enjoy that 56 with the valfleurier base movement

Dear Lord have VC messed up the messaging around the Fiftysix line. I see this misunderstanding being perpetuated on a lot of forums. It is ONLY the base time and date only that has a non-inhouse non-Geneva Seal movement and case. ALL other (day-date, full calendar, tourbillon) definitely DO have pretty nice inhouse movements and come with the Geneva Seal on case and movement. If you look at the Geneva Seal watches in the Fiftysix line they're fantastic with very nice cases and at very attractive price points particularly for the steel versions.

[gliazzurri]

Agree about AP. Somewhat of a one trick pony and yet pulling all sort of hype. At one point was an innovative and unique concept. How many of the same fundamental can be made though? Starting to feel like Rolex to me. Just substitute some colors or basic change but all the same root.

[rolexpatek363]

Are the so-called HT brands set in stone? What if AP was bought out by a billionaire who decided that they should make hairdryers instead of watches? Should AP, the hairdryer company, remain in the HT if that were to happen?

And why bother getting triggered over some guy's opinion from a three-year-old film on YouTube about VC vs JLC in the first place? We all have our opinions, live and let live. If you like what VC do, buy and enjoy, if you don't, then so what?