Daytona 16520 A vs U serial

[Lalaji]

With similar pricing,watch only 16520. Would you go for A serial or U serial?

I heard A serial is rarer, it uses luminova with Swiss Made at 6 o'clock position.

U serial "T Swiss Made T" dial should have larger production, it uses tritium, the lume could turn yellow.

For the three circles, I am not sure these two serial could turn color to "Patrizzi" at all, as I heard only s, w, t etc serial could do so.

My final choice was A serial. Would live to hear what other people.might think. Thanks

[Dan S]

I would always go for tritium, all other things being equal.

[baumare]

Not all the U serial are Tritium, late production could be Luminova.
The compax could turn brownish on the U as well, but what is consider to be a Patrizzi, where the dials are really dark brown, are in the S and W serial. Unfortunately there are many controversy regarding compax artificially turned brown overnight so they can call it "Patrizzi"...

The A serial demand a premium because is the end of production, even though the rarest is the P serial, the last with Zenith movement before the 116520 with the Rolex movement.

[Lalaji]

Originally Posted by baumare

Not all the U serial are Tritium, late production could be Luminova.
The compax could turn brownish on the U as well, but what is consider to be a Patrizzi, where the dials are really dark brown, are in the S and W serial. Unfortunately there are many controversy regarding compax artificially turned brown overnight so they can call it "Patrizzi"...

The A serial demand a premium because is the end of production, even though the rarest is the P serial, the last with Zenith movement before the 116520 with the Rolex movement.

Can A serial turn brownish?

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by Lalaji

Can A serial turn brownish?

I have not seen luminova turn yellow or brown. And obviously not all tritium changes color either.

[Lalaji]

Originally Posted by Dan S

I have not seen luminova turn yellow or brown. And obviously not all tritium changes color either.

I mean the three subdial. Can A serial sub dial turn brown like serial U?

Thanks

[springer]

Originally Posted by Lalaji

I mean the three subdial. Can A serial sub dial turn brown like serial U?

Thanks

No.

[springer]

A dial marked SWISS or SWISS MADE designates the later luminova material in the watch. In my opinion this designation does not make a watch more collectible.

Being a watch from the last year of production doesn't trip the trigger for any collectors that I know of, nor do they bring premium prices. But, if you disagree, then the last year or two of production might just be for you.

Almost all of the vintage collector Rolex models that I know of from the 1960s and later have tritium lume - need I say more.

[MrGoat]

I was under the impression A serials were Swiss only dials. The only year it was luminova instead of “super luminova”.


Sent from my Apple privacy invasion product

[HL65]

Originally Posted by dan s

i would always go for tritium, all other things being equal.

x2

[swish77]

Originally Posted by springer

A dial marked SWISS or SWISS MADE designates the later luminova material in the watch. In my opinion this designation does not make a watch more collectible.

Being a watch from the last year of production doesn't trip the trigger for any collectors that I know of, nor do they bring premium prices. But, if you disagree, then the last year or two of production might just be for you.

Almost all of the vintage collector Rolex models that I know of from the 1960s and later have tritium lume - need I say more.

This. Rarity and desirability are very different. Plenty examples of rare watches that aren’t popular.

Tritium is the way to go on the 16520, as stated above, but condition trumps everything. So, I’d rather have a great condition A serial than a mediocre tritium-dial version, of course.

The subdials on many tritium-dial versions of the black Daytona take on some sort of patina, turning different degrees of tan. However, Patrizzi dials are a completely different animal and relatively easy to spot.

[mailman]

Originally Posted by MrGoat

I was under the impression A serials were Swiss only dials. The only year it was luminova instead of “super luminova”.


Sent from my Apple privacy invasion product

I had a late A serial 16610 with a Swiss Made dial.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by springer

A dial marked SWISS or SWISS MADE designates the later luminova material in the watch. In my opinion this designation does not make a watch more collectible.

Being a watch from the last year of production doesn't trip the trigger for any collectors that I know of, nor do they bring premium prices. But, if you disagree, then the last year or two of production might just be for you.

I agree 100%. I never for a moment imagined that my A-serial watch would carry a premium because it has a slightly different marking on the bottom of the dial. And this thread is the first time I've heard it suggested. It seems that some people are thinking that every negligible difference will somehow make a watch valuable, maybe this is due to hype by dealers. Frankly, I don't even consider A-series watches as vintage or collectible, although I may be in the minority there.

[TuRo]

T R I T I U M for me too, pretty much always.....it's the next Radium collectable that we of course ruminated about in the 80s (should I buy a older gloss radium or newer matte) , and now they are twice as collectable/valuable as matte versions !

[Chester01]

I have a U series sub from like 1997 and its far from turning yellow. There are some from the late 80's still stark white. Mine was a gift and have worn and experienced my entire adulthood so far with it and so will not make a move. That said, the lume adds functionality and if I were going to pick, would opt for one with working lume.

[GTS Dean]

The subdials on my '98 U are a nice deep tan in some lighting, while gold hue in others. I wore it outdoors almost daily for over 10 years before my GMT and Speedy came along. The strong doses of sunshine are what cause the color change.

[PVR]

I sell a lot of zenith Daytonas, I mean A LOT.

The U serial sub dials will never naturally turn brown. Not possible. If you see a U serial patrizzi its a fake/altered dial.

The U serials are the LEAST desirable of all of the Zeniths, in my experience, as they are transitional and create the most confusion. Some have tritium dials some have luminova. Some have solid end links, some have removable end links. I wont buy a U serial or accept on trade, its just the one serial I stay away from.

An A serial has always commanded a premium as it was technically the first Luminova dial, even though transitional U serials are also luminova. The P serials get a 70% premium over the A's because they are the last of the Zeniths and only can be found with P1, P2 and rarely P3 serials. Starting with P4 serials, they transitioned into the 116520 and no longer had Zenith movements.

[Tools]

Originally Posted by Lalaji

With similar pricing,watch only 16520. Would you go for A serial or U serial?

. . .

You're overthinking this.

Rolex never did or changed anything based on a serial number, one serial prefix is not "rarer" than another.

If it is a particular attribute or cosmetic change that you desire, that is your criteria. Condition of the watch is always paramount.

[baumare]

Originally Posted by PVR

I sell a lot of zenith Daytonas, I mean A LOT.

The U serial sub dials will never naturally turn brown. Not possible. If you see a U serial patrizzi its a fake/altered dial.

The U serials are the LEAST desirable of all of the Zeniths, in my experience, as they are transitional and create the most confusion. Some have tritium dials some have luminova. Some have solid end links, some have removable end links. I wont buy a U serial or accept on trade, its just the one serial I stay away from.

An A serial has always commanded a premium as it was technically the first Luminova dial, even though transitional U serials are also luminova. The P serials get a 70% premium over the A's because they are the last of the Zeniths and only can be found with P1, P2 and rarely P3 serials. Starting with P4 serials, they transitioned into the 116520 and no longer had Zenith movements.

I'm glad I'm not alone on this...

I obviously agree with Aaron where condition is what counts the most, and I also consider the 16520 not a real Vintage (yet),

But there are different way of collecting and I realized that the European approach is very different from the American, you can tell from the answer to the same question in the different Forums.
I also agree that most of the time the details like the one we're discussing now do not always command a premium here, in fact I purchase my serial A at the same price of any other 16520, same for my 116520 early P serial, because many people/dealers don't pay attention to this details, but I'm sure that if I had sell it to an European collector on the same day I would have made a good profit.
There are many example of details that demand premium, some I consider ridiculous (AP H or Stick dial for example) but beginning and end of production are interesting to me

[karleone]

I would buy the one in the best condition. If they are both in the exact same condition I would prefer tritium. If both same condition and both luminova I would take the one with SEL.

[Mirek]

The inverse “6” 16520 models will always fetch a premium, they always seem to go for that much more.
The MKI and MKII Zenith dials I believe.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by Mirek

The inverse “6” 16520 models will always fetch a premium, they always seem to go for that much more.
The MKI and MKII Zenith dials I believe.

IIRC, those are significantly earlier, and not relevant to the OP's question. We can all name variants that sell for more, but I think the OP was trying to isolate a single factor between two serial ranges that are otherwise very close and similar.

[Lalaji]

Originally Posted by baumare

I'm glad I'm not alone on this...

I obviously agree with Aaron where condition is what counts the most, and I also consider the 16520 not a real Vintage (yet),

But there are different way of collecting and I realized that the European approach is very different from the American, you can tell from the answer to the same question in the different Forums.
I also agree that most of the time the details like the one we're discussing now do not always command a premium here, in fact I purchase my serial A at the same price of any other 16520, same for my 116520 early P serial, because many people/dealers don't pay attention to this details, but I'm sure that if I had sell it to an European collector on the same day I would have made a good profit.
There are many example of details that demand premium, some I consider ridiculous (AP H or Stick dial for example) but beginning and end of production are interesting to me

You have raised an interesting point on the different view between Americans and Europeans. I am from Hong Kong, just to share my local observation here.

There is an old saying in Hong Kong. "floating, four lines and inverted six are most prefered, if not choose A or P serial" This kind of show the local interest or at least what the dealer wants people to know. I found some similarity in other parts of the world although to different extend.

In fact, when I shop for my 16520, I chose my serial A because it is from a more reputable dealer and condition is slightly better than the U serial offered by another less known shop. As both are watches only, I think I better choose a safer shop with everything else similar or equal. I also talked to the seller about this A vs U thing, he said in the past A did add a premium, but now their price are more or less the same. Not sure if this is related to market sentiment.

However, I can't help to think tritium could offer a bit stronger vintage taste. But as some one pointed out 16520 can yet be called a vintage for the time being anyway.

I am happy with my serial A, just to share some thoughts only.

[Mk2rick]

Originally Posted by Chester01

I have a U series sub from like 1997 and its far from turning yellow. There are some from the late 80's still stark white. Mine was a gift and have worn and experienced my entire adulthood so far with it and so will not make a move. That said, the lume adds functionality and if I were going to pick, would opt for one with working lume.

Same here, my u-series 14060 is "off white" at best.

I got one point of observation for U series watches (not limited to any particular model), it seems to me that U-series watches' bracelet's spring bars grind into the watch case such that there is significant wear and tear on the serial number and Orig Rolex Design ?

My 14060's serial number is almost completely worn off and I notice alot of similar cases for U-series watches posted on Jacek's site.

[PVR]

"I got one point of observation for U series watches (not limited to any particular model), it seems to me that U-series watches' bracelet's spring bars grind into the watch case such that there is significant wear and tear on the serial number and Orig Rolex Design ?"


Rolex switched from the removable end links to solid end links on all models for the same reason.. they created excessive wear on the engravings between the lugs. Thats also why they moved the engravings from between the lugs to the rehaut, to eliminate this from happening.

[PVR]

double post

[douglasf13]

Originally Posted by Chester01

I have a U series sub from like 1997 and its far from turning yellow. There are some from the late 80's still stark white. Mine was a gift and have worn and experienced my entire adulthood so far with it and so will not make a move. That said, the lume adds functionality and if I were going to pick, would opt for one with working lume.

Yeah, I prefer having workable lume myself, too.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by PVR

I sell a lot of zenith Daytonas, I mean A LOT.

The U serial sub dials will never naturally turn brown. Not possible. If you see a U serial patrizzi its a fake/altered dial.

The U serials are the LEAST desirable of all of the Zeniths, in my experience, as they are transitional and create the most confusion. Some have tritium dials some have luminova. Some have solid end links, some have removable end links. I wont buy a U serial or accept on trade, its just the one serial I stay away from.

The sub-dials on black U-serial Daytonas, or other non-Patrizzi dials, won't necessarily turn brown, but they do take on varying degrees of patina. Here's my former U-serial below that I bought after looking at dozens of non-Patrizzis in person. I definitely noticed variations in the sub-dial patina. Some were ivory and others were light to darker tan. Not brown though.

As for least desirable, I wish that was/is the case, because presumably they would be cheaper, which I don't think is true. If the condition of a 16520 is excellent, you'll pay for it, regardless of serial number. That was my experience anyway during about a yearlong search.

[springer]

Originally Posted by swish77

The sub-dials on black U-serial Daytonas, or other non-Patrizzi dials, won't necessarily turn brown, but they do take on varying degrees of patina. Here's my former U-serial below that I bought after looking at dozens of non-Patrizzis in person. I definitely noticed variations in the sub-dial patina. Some were ivory and others were light to darker tan. Not brown though.

As for least desirable, I wish that was/is the case, because presumably they would be cheaper, which I don't think is true. If the condition of a 16520 is excellent, you'll pay for it, regardless of serial number. That was my experience anyway during about a yearlong search.

I agree Swish. Contrary to another post here in this thread, I've owned a couple U serial numbered 16520s and didn't have any issues at all selling them.

[GTS Dean]

My tritium Mk IV U-series subdials