Explorer II 1655 Questions: Looking to Buy

[Gopher1]

Introduction
I am new to RF and researching my first potential Rolex addition to my vintage collection: A 1655. I have been tracking and reading all I can and have developed a decent understanding of the various Marks between dials, bezels, bracelets/links, but am looking for all experts to advise me. I am finally ready to consider a purchase but will appreciate additional guidance for those of you with real Rolex experience.

The Watch
Here is an early Mark I (serial 2,7xx,xxx) I have a chance to purchase. My understanding is this from 1971 and should have a MK1 dial and bezel.

Bezel
This bezel is clearly a replacement, correct for the 1655 in general but not a MK1. To my eyes it is a MK3 but could be a MK2 (I always find them tough to distinguish). Am I correct?

How much of an effect does this bezel swap have on valuation and collectability?

Dial/Lume
The lume is missing completely from the 23:00 hour marker. Strangely, the rest of the dial looks quite good to my eyes for a 52-year-old piece. Who knows what might have caused this. I do not see any signs of other damage like water intrusion. Maybe the lume was damaged during a service and they decided to remove it all? Maybe it started disintegrating, so they removed it all?

Aside from the aesthetic impact, how much of a hit on value would you place on this lume loss? Should I pass?

Bracelet/Links
It comes with the original 7836/580 bracelet/links plus a modern (2010) 78360 because the original bracelet is "rough," I am told.

Hands
Look correct to me but note the faded 24-hour hand and lume disintegration starting in the Minute hand.

Case
The case has been touched up to sharpen the edges. How concerning is this with vintage Rolex models?

Valuation
Are early MK1s like this really valued higher in practice? If so, how much of a price premium would you expect over a later comparable example? I am not hung up on getting a MKI (if we can call this a MKI given the bezel) but like the idea of potentially higher rarity/collectability.

Conclusion
Is there anything else to which you would call my attention as potential issues/risks with this piece? The watch is local, so I can view in the metal before making a decision.

I will appreciate any and all expert advice!

Thanks!

[TuRo]

Nobody else responded so my ten cents

Welcome to our treehouse and good analysis sir

Nice looking straight hand 1655 with a service bezel and plexi and with correct MK1 (second E in Explorer has a short top bit, is a nerdy/minutae check I use) dial hands with Lume @11 missing as you say.... otherwise good dial.

Good case but edges not chamfered and very square tbh - refilled n recut edges as you say probably -check serial engravings of case and case back (is stamped 71 ish) though as some unscrupulous sellers have very fresh fake cases - not suggesting this is btw.

How that case will fair with prospective buyers is moot/subjective. Those who don't frequent here wouldn't notice it (why dealers do it), but some would just say not for me. I personally prefer original scruffy case than a rebuilt one, but others prefer a rebuilt. The Sherolex Holmes in you will have clocked that if the 7836 is 'Rough' the original case would have been too, hence the Botox work.

The other subjective bit - mk1s if all original have about a 15-20% premium +/- someone else's opinion:-).

More subjective still is lume loss. No right answer, some a total no go, others ok. Personally I'd only knock it about 15-20% or about the MK1 status and the correct bezel about another 10-15% or so.

Two bracelets a boon even if f/link scruffy worth £1000!

Mid Case/case back engraving and 1575 calibre check/ lookup if you are intending purchasing I'd suggest.

Summary - A watch that is presented with Max Kerb Appeal. A very good example for weighing up pros and cons of a watch, and what factors matter most to you personally I'd say too. Thanks for posting.

Care to share asking price ?

Rgds P

[Dan S]

Nice-looking watch, but just as a personal subjective opinion, the service bezel and lume loss combined would probably be a dealbreaker for me unless it was a screaming deal. If the price was fantastic, I'd be ok taking on the project of finding the correct bezel and having the dial touched up, with the understanding that the relume on the dial will always be an issue with a future buyer.

As you probably know, an all-original straight-hand 1655 in honest but worn condition recently sold for $18k US in an auction. No bracelet but very nice dial and better color on the 24-hour hand.

[swish77]

Great comments above. Even without knowing the price, the dial imperfections alone would be a deal-breaker. (The vast majority of the value is in the dial.)

I've owned a couple of these through the years, and one of the big appeals is that iconic bright orange hand. One that is faded is not nearly as eye-catching, IMHO. Would be nice to see more and better photos, but those lugs ain't that nice either, as Paul pointed out.

Since you don't care whether it's a MK1, why not seek out a later version that would give you more bang for your buck? MK2s and above are also relatively easier to find in better condition.

Here's my (former) MK2 for comparison:

[Gopher1]

Thank you, P, for the helpful insights and the welcome!

The asking price is $29k (USD). I would not pay that amount but am unsure how much they will come down as I have only asked a few questions so far and have not yet visited to see in person.

[Gopher1]

Thank you, Dan, for your helpful thoughts!

Do you see any valuation difference in having a MK3 bezel vs. a true service bezel (MK5?)?

I have looked at so many sales and for-sale postings I do not recall if I saw that particular auction result, but it would be nice to compare. Do you recall the auction house or have a link?

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by Gopher1

Thank you, P, for the helpful insights!

The asking price is $29k (USD). I would not pay that amount but am unsure how much they will come down as I have only asked a few questions so far and have not yet visited to see in person.

Pleasure. Very Strong asking price is that! That's about mint /original MK1 money for a loose watch (25% extra punched full set btw) and about $8-10k more than I'd see it at btw as it stands, doubt they have 1/3 wriggle room ;-)

[Dan S]

You should probably decide for yourself how much the OP watch is worth to you. The valuation with the issues discussed above are a personal issue. I can definitely say that I wouldn't pay $29k for that watch.

I found it on Invaluable or LiveAuctioneers, or both. The price was exactly $18k including fees, no bracelet. Obviously watches sell for less in an auction than from a dealer because they aren't fixed up as much, and auctions are more risky. You are responsible for knowing what you are looking at, and sales are as-is. You can't ask the forum, and it's not even safe to ask someone by PM, unless they are a real friend. No returns, and often the watches have issues. So I have learned to bid conservatively.

If you have the risk tolerance to buy in an auction, then you should start paying close attention to them. It takes a lot of time and effort to dig through the listings for all the obscure auction houses, it's a needle in the haystack type of thing. Don't expect people to post links to them, or even to post them after the fact.

[Gopher1]

Indeed it is, P! Interestingly, this same dealer sold another MK1 (1972) I was following a few months ago. It was nicer -- no lume loss and second hand more vibrant orange -- but had a service bezel (MK5) and just the original 7836 bracelet with newer clasp. Not sure of the sale price but asking price was $32k.

[Gopher1]

Got it, Dan, thanks!

I have followed auctions closely for a few other brands/models I have collected for years (Universal Geneve, Omega, Enicar, Heuer, Fortis). I am always wary of using auction results as general market markers for all the reasons you state. I have even noticed many higher-than-expected results at least with those lower-end brands I have followed. Sometimes I think people get caught up in the competition and bid higher than planned.

I have bought a couple pieces in auctions and they worked out fine but were only four-figure watches. I would be more skittish at this level but also understand that sometimes you need to take some risk.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by Gopher1

Got it, Dan, thanks!

I have followed auctions closely for a few other brands/models I have collected for years (Universal Geneve, Omega, Enicar, Heuer, Fortis). I am always wary of using auction results as general market markers for all the reasons you state. I have even noticed many higher-than-expected results at least with those lower-end brands I have followed. Sometimes I think people get caught up in the competition and bid higher than planned.

I have bought a couple pieces in auctions and they worked out fine but were only four-figure watches. I would be more skittish at this level but also understand that sometimes you need to take some risk.

[Juhuatai]

Edit: Nvm was looking at the wrong auction!

[edhahn44]

The 1655 is my favourite Rolex vintage reference - so a cool watch and so hard to find in great condition.

I agree with everything that has been said. I’d only value the watch a bit higher (at least in EU). I would expect to pay € 40k+ for an honest early (MKI or II) example in full set.


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[4rnold]

Hello, just my opinion, altough a nice watch except for the 'issues' , I would not buy it, because all the issues will be a problem when you want to sell the watch. You never know you will.

[Gopher1]

Great points, swish77! I agree and also am drawn to the bright 24-hour hand.

Too bad you cannot sell that mint MKII to me! That looks like a keeper to me but I get it: Too many watches out there and not enough money (at least for some of us) and wrists.

[Gopher1]

I appreciate the input, Juhuatai, edhahn44, and 4rnold!

Seems there is good consensus among you experts.

[TuRo]

Purely for the purposes of balance, I like a MK1 with a bleached (so called 'albino') dial and handset.

I love it's understated presence (like a faded bezel 1680/5513/1675), and it's a quick, glance on wrist, differentiator to a bright contemporary orange hand 116570 and 216570..

Each to their own :-).

[baumare]

Originally Posted by TuRo

Purely for the purposes of balance, I like a MK1 with a bleached (so called 'albino') dial and handset.

I love it's understated presence (like a faded bezel 1680/5513/1675), and it's a quick, glance on wrist, differentiator to a bright contemporary orange hand 116570 and 216570..

Each to their own :-).

I remember proudly posting photos of my 1655 and his bright orange hand in a tread on the Italian Forum, only to be debunked by the top expert that collectively preferred the "Albino" 24 hour hands...

As you said, to each their own

[Pete_mcC]

Do those crown guards look correct for a very early 1655? They look like the far fuller later ones.

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by Pete_McC

Do those crown guards look correct for a very early 1655? They look like the far fuller later ones.

Yes, built up as part of the fill and refinish I'd say.

[Gopher1]

I did see the watch in person yesterday. It showed better in the metal to my eyes (even with loupe).

They were willing to come down on price materially ($4k) but not enough to entice me. Interestingly, the salesman was trying to tell me the bezel "could be original," despite my insistence that it is clearly a replacement.

The case obviuously has had work done (and they acknowledge) but it appeared to be a quality job.

They are a Rolex AD (had a total of only one new Rolex in stock). Said supply will not improve any time soon (but they are trickling in).

[zapokee]

Originally Posted by TuRo

Welcome to our treehouse

I'd say it's more of a rabbit warren than a treehouse.

A treehouse is finite. This hobby isn't...

[4rnold]

Originally Posted by Gopher1

I did see the watch in person yesterday. It showed better in the metal to my eyes (even with loupe).

They were willing to come down on price materially ($4k) but not enough to entice me. Interestingly, the salesman was trying to tell me the bezel "could be original," despite my insistence that it is clearly a replacement.

The case obviuously has had work done (and they acknowledge) but it appeared to be a quality job.

They are a Rolex AD (had a total of only one new Rolex in stock). Said supply will not improve any time soon (but they are trickling in).

I understand what you say, watches like these allways look better in reality.

that's why forum's and the internet changed the way we buy these watches.

20 years ago, you would have been guided by the salesman and were likely to buy the watch, because you would have loved what you saw.
This is changed, I recently opended a thread about it, a tought experiment about how the internet changed our view of vintage watches and the way we buy them. It had not much succes, but thats ok, I understand no one likes to admit that they buy watches differently because in a way you can show them of in modern times, something you were much less able to do before the internet.

So if you would have bought the watch without this forum, there is nothing wrong with this, you would have been very happy. But now you came here for advice, you changed your view, and that's ok too. Like I said before, it's a very nice watch that would make you happy. Only if you should decide to sell it in like 10 years or so. The next buyer maybe would argue against some things of the watch. And you be a little annoyed because it would influence the price. So a watch like this is ok if you buy it, and if don't look back, pass it on and they will be happy too even if it has some flaws. It's all a matter of perspective.

[1675-David]

I have been on the lookout for a great Albino 1655 for about 10 years now but have remained mentally behind the curve as prices have developed. Every time I have found "the one" (which has only happened a couple of times during that period) I have always considered the asking price too strong for the market and found now leeway from the seller. So here I am a decade later still without a 1655... take from this story what you will!

[Pete_mcC]

Originally Posted by 1675-David

I have been on the lookout for a great Albino 1655 for about 10 years now but have remained mentally behind the curve as prices have developed.

I did exactly the same. Still kick myself over the stunning Mark 1 with box and papers which I let go at £9,000 a number of years back, then the all original birth year one at £12k a few years later..
..had to eventually bite the bullet last year as I knew the market for good examples just isn’t going to crash.

[bondtoys]

Personally, I‘d be VERY careful with this watch.
Everything but the dial just appears to be spanking new and I‘d make sure that the case and the bezel are genuine and not fake.

Seller says that the case has been „redone“ but it seems that the lugs are so strong that they could be on a brand spanking new watch. No substance loss at all and that on a 50 year old watch!

What is the serial number and have you checked that number if you find anything that leads to a fake?
How does the movement look like?

I am not expert enough to give you a final verdict, but this must be checked out with knowledge about vintage Rolex watches

[4rnold]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

Personally, I‘d be VERY careful with this watch.
Everything but the dial just appears to be spanking new and I‘d make sure that the case and the bezel are genuine and not fake.

Seller says that the case has been „redone“ but it seems that the lugs are so strong that they could be on a brand spanking new watch. No substance loss at all and that on a 50 year old watch!

What is the serial number and have you checked that number if you find anything that leads to a fake?
How does the movement look like?

I am not expert enough to give you a final verdict, but this must be checked out with knowledge about vintage Rolex watches

Apparantly it's from an AD , so I doubt it will be fake

[bondtoys]

Yeah, because ADs are so knowledgeable about vintage Rolex…..

[Pete_mcC]

Originally Posted by 4rnold

Apparantly it's from an AD , so I doubt it will be fake

From my experience ADs rarely have anyone with vintage knowledge, just lots shiny toothed salespeople in tight suits. I was once told my Oysterquartz was ‘probably a fake because it ticked’ by an AD..

Can’t image that watch has been near Rolex for servicing, they would have swapped out the faulty dial and bezel in a second which would potentially rule out service case. Mid case could be a fake, or heavily lasered and recut as suggested above.

There is a dealer who has sold dozens of 1655s, all listed as ‘previously polished’ and all with very similar sharp & solid lugs and crown guards, irrespective of age or mark of watch. Maybe it’s one of theirs.

[bondtoys]

Shouldn‘t the dial read Swiss T < 25?