Two questions in one post

[infinitewill]

This is my first post and I am not sure I am even in the correct forum.

I own what I was told is a 16800 series Submariner from the jeweler I purchased it from 20+ years ago. This is kind of a long explanation so please bare with me. About 19 years ago I did something that I now know was incredibly stupid, I wanted to have my watch face and bezel insert refinished in a non-factory color. After contacting literally dozens of watch dealers, I was told that no factory authorized Rolex dealer could touch my watch once altered with a non-NOS part or finish. I contacted E.G. Marshall in Scottsdale, AZ and they told me they had the ability to refinish the face and insert in a deep Royal purple finish and after several month I got my watch back in what was an aftermarket Blue and Stainless face and insert PLUS they kept the factory parts. Live and learn from my mistake I guess. Understand the work they did was gorgeous, just not what I asked for nor paid for.
Fast forward 18 years; I would like to return my 16800 back to factory correct however I am challenged as to what face was on the watch originally. I have the original box, registration papers, anchor charm, seal hang tag, certificate of ownership (I think that is what it is called) even the original Rolex passport folio that came with it. Is there a way of checking my serial number to identify what the of face I should look for? Also can any of you recommend a trusted firm to help me do the restoration?
I am asking this because I was recently told that the value of my watch has been halved because of the alterations and I would rather return it to original condition.
Any thoughts other than YES, I was an uneducated fool for altering my watch? 😀

Thanks in advance!

Will In O.P.

[Filipão]

Hello Will,

Pictures would help... please be kind enough to post a few.

Thank you

[infinitewill]

I will try to take a few photos this evening of the serial number which, if I recall are located behind the bracelet lugs on the side of the case? Not sure I know how to post them though!

[Tools]

Welcome.

There are a few folks that may help. Even Rolex will put on a service dial and insert, which are correct parts, if you explain to them what you want. It is not true that they won't do the work, they just won't do the work and keep the non-Rolex parts on it.

What you will not be able to do is return it to "original" condition, which is what you would need if you have dreams of the value folks suggest.

If you want to seek authentic, era made, parts; they would likely cost more than the value difference you would see. Again, it still would not be "original", simply era-correct.

[Styles Bitchley]

Interesting dilemma. Hindsight is 20/20 now that everyone is looking to pay top dollar for untouched vintage Rolex Subs.

Photos would help, for sure…and it’s good that you’re already prepared for the “OMG why?” comments .

These bezel inserts are available and often come up for sale on VRF or here in the classifieds. The dial may be more challenging, but not as hard as finding an earlier four digit Sub dial. You’ll need to determine if your dial was pre or post gold surround hour markers, as the 16800 had both. The serial should help.

What isn’t clear is if the jeweller you used modified the existing dial and insert or gave you custom made aftermarket parts.

The best bit of advice for you is to spend a bunch of time doing some research here on the forum. You’ll find out more than you thought possible about dial variants and bezel inserts. Either that or just pay one of the vintage restoration experts regularly referenced here on the forum. Less fun, but you’ll get what you want.

[hutch300]

There are parts out there that are period correct and would look nice. You could have RSC do the work and get luminova parts vs tritium. Will not be cheap either way but worth it if you want to wear it.

[R.W.T.]

Rolex WILL NOT touch the watch with those parts in it.

I get them every day for service. I just got a 16013 that was rejected by Rolex Dallas for dial altered.

Your best bet is to get the dial that came in it or a genuine service dial and then have it serviced if you want them to do it.

You are pretty good on a matte dial up to about 82-83 or so I think.
Someone recently had one for sale in the 1500 range. That's what I paid for the last one I had to buy for a customer to do the same thing you are doing 2 years ago.

The matte dial was short lived...lots were swapped in service for the wg surrounds dial...so they command a good price.

Figure out what you have and what you need.

[infinitewill]

Can one of you DM me a quick primer on how to post images? Or am I going to need to post a link to a hosted image on Photobucket or the like?

Thanks for all the advice!

[brandrea]

Welcome to the forum

I’d like to see a picture of the watch.

[TimeLord2]

Originally Posted by infinitewill

Can one of you DM me a quick primer on how to post images? Or am I going to need to post a link to a hosted image on Photobucket or the like?

Thanks for all the advice!

Many on this forum use the Tapatalk app to easily post images. That said, use the "Go Advanced" button below instead of the "Post Quick Reply". Click the paper clip icon right next to the smiley face on the panel above where you enter your comments. A popup window will come up. If you can size your images as indicated in the popup window (lower portion of the window), then you're good to go. As an example jpeg is a common file format on the Internet, the maximum file size you can post on this forum is 293.0 KB and physical dimensions of 1250 x 1250 pixels. Screen resolution is 72 DPI. Here is the pop up window for reference, which I attached by just using the "Snipping Tool" (just type that in the search bar of your PC to open it) to grab an image directly off of my PC, that is if you are using a PC. For a Mac i think you can use CTRL, Shift, 4 or something like that to crop an image on your screen. If you have a photo editing program even better or use the Tapatalk app. There are many ways to do it. Oh and after you make the file "Choose File, and don't forget to "Upload" said file. Good luck!
.

[infinitewill]

I'm sorry to dredge up an old thread but I have a very "newbie" question concerning my 16800 series Rolex Sub, but first a brief but ugly backstory recap

In 1994 (ish) I purchased an original Black and Stainless Sub along with the original box, papers and even the Anchor charm which I still have.
At the time I was ignorant as to the value of these watches, which at the time were quite unremarkable. In 2005 I foolishly sent the watch to E.G. Marshall in Scottsdale, AZ to have the face refinished. They claimed that they could do a ceramic refinished face and bezel insert in Royal Purple (they misrepresented the color) when I received it back it was very close to the factory Saphire blue with an aftermarket bezel insert. They also did not return my original face and bezel insert and after much back and forth with them I gave up ever seeing them again as they has sold the parts.

I did not at the time realize that once a genuine Rolex has been modified, no factory authorized deal can touch it without fear of losing their good standing with Rolex. I promptly put the watch away and wore in only on very rare occasion over the next 15 years. I noticed that the aftermarket bezel insert had a scratch so I found an acceptable aftermarket replacement and in 2021 I had it replaced at a reputable local horologist and promptly put the watch away again as I now wear a smartwatch (I know, horrifying but a necessary evil in my profession). Today I took my watch out of my lockbox and something didn't look right about it and it suddenly stuck my what was wrong: the magnifying bubble over the date is missing! I never noticed it when I picked up the watch after the bezel insert replacement! Ironically I have a photo I took of the watch only a few days before taking it in two have the bezel insert replaced and you can clearly see the magnifier. I took out my photographic loupe and can see the residue for the adhesive that once held the magnifier in place.

My question is twofold, first are the factory magnifiers cast into the sapire crystals or are they applied and bonded on? I ask because I have no idea at which point the crystal was "switched" The watchmaker claims, and I have no reason to not believe him after 3 years, that he would not have removed the crystal to replace the bezel insert.

Now it appears I have at least 3 parts that ar not original to the watch nor period correct.

The bezel insert, the face and now the crystal. I have effectively ruined the collector value of the watch with no path to refurbish it with correct parts. Am I completely screwed?

I think this my only be my fourth post since joining a few years ago.

Will

[infinitewill]

The is the watch before the magnifier went MIA

[996marty]

So in the two years since your post you’ve not done anything with it? As mentioned two years ago the parts you need are available you’ll just need to do a search for them

[996marty]

Check hnco.com.au they are usually good for parts

[linesiders]

Will, give us the first four numbers of the serial, and confirm that it is a 16800, not a 168000, And you want it with correct service parts? Or you want it with the original dial that would have been in it both can be sourced, the latter will probably be more expensive.

[infinitewill]

Originally Posted by 996marty

So in the two years since your post you’ve not done anything with it? As mentioned two years ago the parts you need are available you’ll just need to do a search for them

Actually, the watch went into my safe deposit box while I dealt with cancer and several other issues including a bad accident on my job. We can't always do what we want when we want 🙁

[infinitewill]

Originally Posted by linesiders

Will, give us the first four numbers of the serial, and confirm that it is a 16800, not a 168000, And you want it with correct service parts? Or you want it with the original dial that would have been in it both can be sourced, the latter will probably be more expensive.

Thank you for your reply. The first 4 digits are 8046 if that helps. I wish I had never modified it in the first place and now I just want to return it to period correct parts. Lesson learned

Regards,

Will

[TimeLord2]

Originally Posted by infinitewill

Actually, the watch went into my safe deposit box while I dealt with cancer and several other issues including a bad accident on my job. We can't always do what we want when we want 🙁

Sorry to hear that. Not the first part but the last part. Glad it's been dealt with. You could also post a want to buy ad on this forum. You're in good hands with those who have already responded on this thread. I will add that I have used Phillip Ridley Watchmakers in the past and he can help you with servicing the watch, which it probably needs, and sourcing period correct parts. You can do a search and find many, many recommendations for his services. Best of luck to you in your quest.

[linesiders]

Originally Posted by infinitewill

Thank you for your reply. The first 4 digits are 8046 if that helps. I wish I had never modified it in the first place and now I just want to return it to period correct parts. Lesson learned

Regards,

Will

That serial number indicates 16800. Though you really should confirm that.

Check out first class dials www.firstclassdials.com and request a matching set of hands, dial, and insert that would be original to that time frame, request options on Patina if you want it to look as it would have great aged gracefully, you might get lucky.

You might as well get it serviced during the same time. There are options listed in threads above for sympathetic restorations.

[infinitewill]

Originally Posted by TimeLord2

Sorry to hear that. Not the first part but the last part. Glad it's been dealt with. You could also post a want to buy ad on this forum. You're in good hands with those who have already responded on this thread. I will add that I have used Phillip Ridley Watchmakers in the past and he can help you with servicing the watch, which it probably needs, and sourcing period correct parts. You can do a search and find many, many recommendations for his services. Best of luck to you in your quest.

I managed to source a period correct bezel insert, I had the original bezel. I am a little hazy as to what the correct dial should be for the time period and whether they replaced the hands. More research to come.

[Dom9]

Glad to hear you got over the cancer, Will! I will be in the minority here but I love the blue... and did the same to my 16610 :D I kept the original insert and dial though and they will be going back in, shortly, as well.

Sounds like you've got the insert sorted, which would have been the easy part... Dial is harder but they do come up for sale on ebay, with dealers and it's also worth keeping an eye on the VRF classifieds: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vint...arket-f207673/

[infinitewill]

I have been in contact with a couple dealers and got conflicting information as to whether the cyclops lens was one piece or two. My understanding is that when the cyclops lens was introduced in was plexiglass and cast as one piece but when they updated to sapphire the went to a bonded on lens. Is that a correct assumption?

[996marty]

Originally Posted by infinitewill

Actually, the watch went into my safe deposit box while I dealt with cancer and several other issues including a bad accident on my job. We can't always do what we want when we want 🙁

It was a straightforward question to ask if you were still looking for the same parts as two years ago? That’s why I posted a link to somewhere you might be able to find something

[swish77]

Do you have a photo of the Sub before the aftermarket modifications?

Was the original dial a matte version or the gold-surround version? With a 8.0 million serial case, you're close to the beginning of the later version, and if that's the case, it would make your dial search a lot easier (and cheaper).

And if you're not bothered about tiny details like correct font and word spacing, you could fit a 16610 dial and hands in the watch, and those are relatively plentiful. I'd suggest tritium, of course.

However, if you know for sure the watch had a matte dial, you're looking at a much tougher and more expensive search, assuming you want to keep the original look.

[infinitewill]

Unfortunately I do not have photos of the watch before the modification as it was done nearly 20 years ago. I do remember however that it did not have gold on it. I have a copy of the "The Rolex Report" by John Brozek and I am finding my way through the subtle differences between the models. I don't know if the hands were replaced at the time the dial was. Because I have only worn it once the past 15 years I was wanting to put it back to original condition and sell it but now, given the cost of the restoration I may just keep it and start wearing it again. I have the original paperwork as well and it is marked R16800A/B93150008 although I have no idea, other than the model, what the number mean at this point.

[Dom9]

Originally Posted by infinitewill

I have been in contact with a couple dealers and got conflicting information as to whether the cyclops lens was one piece or two. My understanding is that when the cyclops lens was introduced in was plexiglass and cast as one piece but when they updated to sapphire the went to a bonded on lens. Is that a correct assumption?

1680 was one piece plexi with cast-in cyclops.

16800 was sapphire, thus "2-piece" crystal/cyclops, effectively.

I've been assuming your watch would be a matte dial but a gloss 16610 is a 'quick fix', while you search, for sure.

[infinitewill]

I have now confirmed that my watch is a 16800 series. I have secured an NOS bezel insert for a 16800 and the search is on for a mat finish NOS face. Thank you for pointing my in the right direction!

[hutch300]

As mentioned, First Class Dials or a WTB add here should get you moving.

[infinitewill]

Originally Posted by hutch300

As mentioned, First Class Dials or a WTB add here should get you moving.

You folks weren't kidding about 16800 matte dials being pricey. Quoted $2200. I have been in touch with an authorized Rolex dealer and they claim that I can have the face replaced at the factory by including a "hardship" letter explaining my predicament. I would also have to agree to a factory service but all in I may be looking at around $2800-3400. I will keep you posted. I wish there was a way to know if my watch was originally glossy or matte face but so far even the dealer can't answer that one for me.

[hutch300]

Since you don't, why not just get a gloss dial. You could spend way less and it will be nice.