18238: "T Swiss Made T" no lume dial?

[TomWambsgans]

I'm not on the market for this watch but it popped up in my EBay feed and something caught my eye: It appears to have no lume, and also bears the "T Swiss Made T" marking.

Can anyone explain? Were they for the Japanese market? This is just my idle curiosity. (Admittedly, I really like the look and the clean gaps.)

[Dan S]

"No lume" dials with "T" markings are a thing. Without photos, we can't say much about the specific watch you're referring to.

[interestedwatcher]

It looks like the lume markers are present - they are just almost washed out be the white of the dial and the photo.

[TomWambsgans]

Originally Posted by Dan S

"No lume" dials with "T" markings are a thing. Without photos, we can't say much about the specific watch you're referring to.

Here's an image from the Ebay item I linked. (Link to Ebay)

[interestedwatcher]

Originally Posted by TomWambsgans

Here's an image from the Ebay item I linked. (Link to Ebay)

It’s there - look at the end of the baton above the V a little lume plot. Same at the end of every baton.


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[TomWambsgans]

Originally Posted by Dan S

"No lume" dials with "T" markings are a thing. Without photos, we can't say much about the specific watch you're referring to.

Added an image. What's the backstory on the no lume dials with "T" markings? Were they only made for a certain period in history, or are they still available as service dials?

[TomWambsgans]

Originally Posted by interestedwatcher

It’s there - look at the end of the baton above the V a little lume plot. Same at the end of every baton.


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Yeah.

Are there gold baton dials like that that never had lume? I really like the look.


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[KY..]

Dial has very white lume that’s hard to see.
But T SWISS T or T SWISS MADE T dials exist with or without lume on the dial, but typically will have lume hands.

[TomWambsgans]

Originally Posted by KY..

Dial has very white lume that’s hard to see.
But T SWISS T or T SWISS MADE T dials exist with or without lume on the dial, but typically will have lume hands.

Thanks. Was this random, or were the lume-less T dials sold for specific time periods and/or in specific markets?


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[interestedwatcher]

Originally Posted by TomWambsgans

Thanks. Was this random, or were the lume-less T dials sold for specific time periods and/or in specific markets?


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Japan doesn’t like tritium - so some markets definitely had dials made for those type of restrictions.


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[996marty]

Originally Posted by interestedwatcher

It’s there - look at the end of the baton above the V a little lume plot. Same at the end of every baton.


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As mentioned it’s there

[Rafabond]

Retouching the image you can almost appreciate

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by interestedwatcher

Japan doesn’t like tritium - so some markets definitely had dials made for those type of restrictions.


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Indeed, Japan market Early Manual Wind Daytonas are lumeless ..which freaks out some less clued-up collectors ;-)

[TuRo]

The '238 was produced 1988 to 2000. I'm not an expert on DD as Miami Clay is, but I wonder if this is a 99/00 or a service dial (tritinova in stock from 00-06 on many low turnover 't' stamped service dials - the latest I had was a 16760 dial changed to t25 tritinova 3/9/06) as it looks like a tritinova to me.

[offrdmania]

Day Date stone dials usually said T SWISS T without having lume. It was common. The dials were printed first before it was decided what the setup for the watch would be.

[miamiclay]

Looks like you’ve gotten good answers above already. As the dial lume and hands are applied last, Rolex may not yet know, at the time when the dial text is stamped with the text tampon, whether a particular piece will have dial lume or lumed hands applied later..

Stone and wood DD dials usually had no dial lume, and gem-set DD dials only sometimes did. It is thought that many no-lume DDs were for the Japanese market, which was (quite understandably!) leery about any possible radiation. (One circumstance where you can *know* there has been some part-swapping going on is when you see a piece with lume on the dial, but no-lume hands.)

I believe TuRo may be right that the eBay one in the photo is a transitional tritinova service dial (a UV light could probably give a clearer answer). There are also quite a few other, non-stone baton dials which never had lume. E.g., note this WG Wide Boy 1803/9 below, which is marked TST, but has no lume on either the dial or WB hands.

TomWam, there is a certain “pics or it didn’t happen” sentiment here, so let us SEE your new 18238!
.

[TomWambsgans]

Originally Posted by miamiclay

Looks like you’ve gotten good answers above already. As the dial lume and hands are applied last, Rolex may not yet know, at the time when the dial text is stamped with the text tampon, whether a particular piece will have dial lume or lumed hands applied later..

Stone and wood DD dials usually had no dial lume, and gem-set DD dials only sometimes did. It is thought that many no-lume DDs were for the Japanese market, which was (quite understandably!) leery about any possible radiation. (One circumstance where you can *know* there has been some part-swapping going on is when you see a piece with lume on the dial, but no-lume hands.)

I believe TuRo may be right that the eBay one in the photo is a transitional tritinova service dial (a UV light could probably give a clearer answer). There are also quite a few other, non-stone baton dials which never had lume. E.g., note this WG Wide Boy 1803/9 below, which is marked TST, but has no lume on either the dial or WB hands.

TomWam, there is a certain “pics or it didn’t happen” sentiment here, so let us SEE your new 18238!
.

Here's mine:



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[Dan S]

Originally Posted by TomWambsgans

Here's mine:



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That appears to have lume on both dial and hands.

[TomWambsgans]

Originally Posted by Dan S

That appears to have lume on both dial and hands.

Yeah, which I'm happy with. But boy, I sure do like that white dial with the no-lume look!

[0nly5iv3Digits]

All dials of the tritium era, whether or not lume is present, are marked “T”. Totally normal as pointed out.

[springer]

There were definitely inconsistencies with the use of tritium and the lower dial markings on the 18038 and 18238 Day-Date dials. The pyramid dials did not have tritium and were marked SWISS MADE.

Below are two examples. One from 1984 and one from 1992.

[miamiclay]

Originally Posted by TomWambsgans

Here's mine

Congratulations! That looks like a beauty.

Loose white 5-digit DD dials are not hard to find (though no-lume ones are certainly more scarce).

Dials for 18038s and 118238s will also fit your 18238 - You could pick up a white dial and have it swapped at any point down the road, if you like …

[TomWambsgans]

Originally Posted by miamiclay

Congratulations! That looks like a beauty.

Loose white 5-digit DD dials are not hard to find (though no-lume ones are certainly more scarce).

Dials for 18038s and 118238s will also fit your 18238 - You could pick up a white dial and have it swapped at any point down the road, if you like …

Thanks! I'm going to see what I can find. Any pointers/rules of thumb? Looks like Ebay has the most on offer.

[miamiclay]

eBay is chock full of aftermarket, repainted, and relumed dials, and there are some dials offered for the 18038s and 118238s which were not available on yours when it was new.

If it matters to you that it be both factory original and “period correct” for a 18238, post pics or links to any you’re considering, so the actual experts here can let you know.

It’s also worth looking at the parts/accessories listings both here on TRF and on C24.

[PVR]

I have found that any dial that was without lume should also have hands without lume. If the hands have lume so should the dial...

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by PVR

I have found that any dial that was without lume should also have hands without lume. If the hands have lume so should the dial...

I suspect that there are valid exceptions to this rule, although perhaps not with DDs, which I'm not so familiar with.

The reverse is certainly true, however. A lumed dial would make no sense with un-lumed hands.

[offrdmania]

I have seen all combinations and because of the passage of time, there could be instances of hand changes, so unless you are the original owner, who know if your watch is in its original factory configuration.

[miamiclay]

Originally Posted by PVR

I have found that any dial that was without lume should also have hands without lume. If the hands have lume so should the dial...

Not always … e.g., there were plenty of no-lume stone dials issued with lumed hands. Iirc, I’ve even seen an old Rolex magazine ad showing no-lume (wood dial) DDs with lumed hands.

In any event, before 2000 I expect most ADs would’ve been delighted to put lumed hands on any brand new DD, in order to make the sale.

(This just illustrates that, for almost every “rule” regarding vintage Rolex, there are exceptions, and exceptions to those exceptions, ad infinitum!)

[crowncollection]

As above this is a well documented inconsistency


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[fivedime]

Most likely the photo was filtered/post-processed to enhance the “whiteness” of the dial…washing out the lume plots, by a seller more interested in making as “pretty picture” presentation as possible, and not reflection of actual/collectability-related condition. It will almost certainly look radically different in real life or in unfiltered, natural light photos…