The Rolex Forums   The Rolex Watch

ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX


Go Back   Rolex Forums - Rolex Forum > Rolex & Tudor Watch Topics > Vintage Rolex Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 13 October 2024, 01:49 PM   #1
TomWambsgans
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2023
Location: SF Bay Area (US)
Watch: 14060M
Posts: 57
18238: "T Swiss Made T" no lume dial?

I'm not on the market for this watch but it popped up in my EBay feed and something caught my eye: It appears to have no lume, and also bears the "T Swiss Made T" marking.

Can anyone explain? Were they for the Japanese market? This is just my idle curiosity. (Admittedly, I really like the look and the clean gaps.)
TomWambsgans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 October 2024, 01:59 PM   #2
Dan S
2024 Pledge Member
 
Dan S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 6,214
"No lume" dials with "T" markings are a thing. Without photos, we can't say much about the specific watch you're referring to.
__________________
@oldwatchdan on IG
Dan S is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13 October 2024, 02:07 PM   #3
interestedwatcher
2024 Pledge Member
 
interestedwatcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Hobart
Posts: 1,027
It looks like the lume markers are present - they are just almost washed out be the white of the dial and the photo.
__________________
2 FA Enabled
interestedwatcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 October 2024, 02:17 PM   #4
TomWambsgans
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2023
Location: SF Bay Area (US)
Watch: 14060M
Posts: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan S View Post
"No lume" dials with "T" markings are a thing. Without photos, we can't say much about the specific watch you're referring to.
Here's an image from the Ebay item I linked. (Link to Ebay)
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg nolumetswisst.jpeg (223.4 KB, 198 views)
TomWambsgans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 October 2024, 02:18 PM   #5
interestedwatcher
2024 Pledge Member
 
interestedwatcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Hobart
Posts: 1,027
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomWambsgans View Post
Here's an image from the Ebay item I linked. (Link to Ebay)

It’s there - look at the end of the baton above the V a little lume plot. Same at the end of every baton.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
2 FA Enabled
interestedwatcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 October 2024, 02:20 PM   #6
TomWambsgans
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2023
Location: SF Bay Area (US)
Watch: 14060M
Posts: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan S View Post
"No lume" dials with "T" markings are a thing. Without photos, we can't say much about the specific watch you're referring to.
Added an image. What's the backstory on the no lume dials with "T" markings? Were they only made for a certain period in history, or are they still available as service dials?
TomWambsgans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 October 2024, 02:31 PM   #7
TomWambsgans
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2023
Location: SF Bay Area (US)
Watch: 14060M
Posts: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by interestedwatcher View Post
It’s there - look at the end of the baton above the V a little lume plot. Same at the end of every baton.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah.

Are there gold baton dials like that that never had lume? I really like the look.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
TomWambsgans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 October 2024, 03:06 PM   #8
KY..
2024 Pledge Member
 
KY..'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Real Name: Keith
Location: California
Watch: 60s to 90s
Posts: 1,325
Dial has very white lume that’s hard to see.
But T SWISS T or T SWISS MADE T dials exist with or without lume on the dial, but typically will have lume hands.
__________________
Just an admirer/enthusiast of vintage Rolex/Heuer/Zenith/Breitling/Hamilton watches since the 80’s…
”I Do Love The Details, But I Can Choose If I Accept The Flaws…”
KY.. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 October 2024, 03:16 PM   #9
TomWambsgans
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2023
Location: SF Bay Area (US)
Watch: 14060M
Posts: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by KY.. View Post
Dial has very white lume that’s hard to see.
But T SWISS T or T SWISS MADE T dials exist with or without lume on the dial, but typically will have lume hands.

Thanks. Was this random, or were the lume-less T dials sold for specific time periods and/or in specific markets?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
TomWambsgans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 October 2024, 03:17 PM   #10
interestedwatcher
2024 Pledge Member
 
interestedwatcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Hobart
Posts: 1,027
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomWambsgans View Post
Thanks. Was this random, or were the lume-less T dials sold for specific time periods and/or in specific markets?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Japan doesn’t like tritium - so some markets definitely had dials made for those type of restrictions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
2 FA Enabled
interestedwatcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 October 2024, 03:58 PM   #11
996marty
"TRF" Member
 
996marty's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Uk
Watch: RolexGMT/Tudor7928
Posts: 4,046
Quote:
Originally Posted by interestedwatcher View Post
It’s there - look at the end of the baton above the V a little lume plot. Same at the end of every baton.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
As mentioned it’s there
996marty is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13 October 2024, 06:24 PM   #12
Rafabond
"TRF" Member
 
Rafabond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Barcelona, Spain
Watch: Rolex, Tudor, etc
Posts: 619
Retouching the image you can almost appreciate

Rafabond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 October 2024, 06:30 PM   #13
TuRo
"TRF" Member
 
TuRo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Real Name: Paul
Location: Cantabrigia - G.B
Watch: ing the detectives
Posts: 2,772
Quote:
Originally Posted by interestedwatcher View Post
Japan doesn’t like tritium - so some markets definitely had dials made for those type of restrictions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Indeed, Japan market Early Manual Wind Daytonas are lumeless ..which freaks out some less clued-up collectors ;-)
__________________
As silent as car lights that move across this room
As cold as our bodies silhouetted by the moon
I would lie awake and wonder, Is it just me or this the way love is supposed to be?
THE THE - Kingdom of Rain.
TuRo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 October 2024, 06:42 PM   #14
TuRo
"TRF" Member
 
TuRo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Real Name: Paul
Location: Cantabrigia - G.B
Watch: ing the detectives
Posts: 2,772
The '238 was produced 1988 to 2000. I'm not an expert on DD as Miami Clay is, but I wonder if this is a 99/00 or a service dial (tritinova in stock from 00-06 on many low turnover 't' stamped service dials - the latest I had was a 16760 dial changed to t25 tritinova 3/9/06) as it looks like a tritinova to me.
__________________
As silent as car lights that move across this room
As cold as our bodies silhouetted by the moon
I would lie awake and wonder, Is it just me or this the way love is supposed to be?
THE THE - Kingdom of Rain.
TuRo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 October 2024, 11:23 PM   #15
offrdmania
2024 ROLEX SUBMARINER 41 Pledge Member
 
offrdmania's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Real Name: Matt
Location: Wine Country, Ca
Posts: 5,966
Day Date stone dials usually said T SWISS T without having lume. It was common. The dials were printed first before it was decided what the setup for the watch would be.
__________________
TRF Member 11738
offrdmania is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14 October 2024, 04:23 AM   #16
miamiclay
2024 Pledge Member
 
miamiclay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: 33139/95460
Posts: 1,390
Looks like you’ve gotten good answers above already. As the dial lume and hands are applied last, Rolex may not yet know, at the time when the dial text is stamped with the text tampon, whether a particular piece will have dial lume or lumed hands applied later..

Stone and wood DD dials usually had no dial lume, and gem-set DD dials only sometimes did. It is thought that many no-lume DDs were for the Japanese market, which was (quite understandably!) leery about any possible radiation. (One circumstance where you can *know* there has been some part-swapping going on is when you see a piece with lume on the dial, but no-lume hands.)

I believe TuRo may be right that the eBay one in the photo is a transitional tritinova service dial (a UV light could probably give a clearer answer). There are also quite a few other, non-stone baton dials which never had lume. E.g., note this WG Wide Boy 1803/9 below, which is marked TST, but has no lume on either the dial or WB hands.

TomWam, there is a certain “pics or it didn’t happen” sentiment here, so let us SEE your new 18238!
.
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg FullSizeRender-compressed.jpeg (189.2 KB, 155 views)
miamiclay is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14 October 2024, 05:52 AM   #17
TomWambsgans
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2023
Location: SF Bay Area (US)
Watch: 14060M
Posts: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiclay View Post
Looks like you’ve gotten good answers above already. As the dial lume and hands are applied last, Rolex may not yet know, at the time when the dial text is stamped with the text tampon, whether a particular piece will have dial lume or lumed hands applied later..

Stone and wood DD dials usually had no dial lume, and gem-set DD dials only sometimes did. It is thought that many no-lume DDs were for the Japanese market, which was (quite understandably!) leery about any possible radiation. (One circumstance where you can *know* there has been some part-swapping going on is when you see a piece with lume on the dial, but no-lume hands.)

I believe TuRo may be right that the eBay one in the photo is a transitional tritinova service dial (a UV light could probably give a clearer answer). There are also quite a few other, non-stone baton dials which never had lume. E.g., note this WG Wide Boy 1803/9 below, which is marked TST, but has no lume on either the dial or WB hands.

TomWam, there is a certain “pics or it didn’t happen” sentiment here, so let us SEE your new 18238!
.

Here's mine:



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
TomWambsgans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14 October 2024, 06:14 AM   #18
Dan S
2024 Pledge Member
 
Dan S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 6,214
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomWambsgans View Post
Here's mine:



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
That appears to have lume on both dial and hands.
__________________
@oldwatchdan on IG
Dan S is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14 October 2024, 06:17 AM   #19
TomWambsgans
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2023
Location: SF Bay Area (US)
Watch: 14060M
Posts: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan S View Post
That appears to have lume on both dial and hands.
Yeah, which I'm happy with. But boy, I sure do like that white dial with the no-lume look!
TomWambsgans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14 October 2024, 06:21 AM   #20
0nly5iv3Digits
"TRF" Member
 
0nly5iv3Digits's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: EARTH
Watch: What is "watch"?
Posts: 1,244
All dials of the tritium era, whether or not lume is present, are marked “T”. Totally normal as pointed out.
__________________
UNpolished or I’m not interested” 😎
2FA Enabled
0nly5iv3Digits is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14 October 2024, 06:23 AM   #21
springer
2024 ROLEX SUBMARINER 41 Pledge Member
 
springer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Real Name: jP
Location: Texas
Watch: GMT-MASTER
Posts: 17,296
There were definitely inconsistencies with the use of tritium and the lower dial markings on the 18038 and 18238 Day-Date dials. The pyramid dials did not have tritium and were marked SWISS MADE.

Below are two examples. One from 1984 and one from 1992.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg modifiedsm..jpg (111.1 KB, 157 views)
File Type: jpg Img_5422small..jpg (121.2 KB, 160 views)
__________________
Member of NAWCC since 1990.

INSTAGRAM USER NAME: SPRINGERJFP
Visit my Instagram page to view some of the finest vintage GMTs anywhere - as well as other vintage classics.
springer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14 October 2024, 07:33 AM   #22
miamiclay
2024 Pledge Member
 
miamiclay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: 33139/95460
Posts: 1,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomWambsgans View Post
Here's mine
Congratulations! That looks like a beauty.

Loose white 5-digit DD dials are not hard to find (though no-lume ones are certainly more scarce).

Dials for 18038s and 118238s will also fit your 18238 - You could pick up a white dial and have it swapped at any point down the road, if you like …
miamiclay is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14 October 2024, 08:58 AM   #23
TomWambsgans
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2023
Location: SF Bay Area (US)
Watch: 14060M
Posts: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiclay View Post
Congratulations! That looks like a beauty.

Loose white 5-digit DD dials are not hard to find (though no-lume ones are certainly more scarce).

Dials for 18038s and 118238s will also fit your 18238 - You could pick up a white dial and have it swapped at any point down the road, if you like …
Thanks! I'm going to see what I can find. Any pointers/rules of thumb? Looks like Ebay has the most on offer.
TomWambsgans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14 October 2024, 10:26 AM   #24
miamiclay
2024 Pledge Member
 
miamiclay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: 33139/95460
Posts: 1,390
eBay is chock full of aftermarket, repainted, and relumed dials, and there are some dials offered for the 18038s and 118238s which were not available on yours when it was new.

If it matters to you that it be both factory original and “period correct” for a 18238, post pics or links to any you’re considering, so the actual experts here can let you know.

It’s also worth looking at the parts/accessories listings both here on TRF and on C24.
miamiclay is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15 October 2024, 01:27 PM   #25
PVR
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Darien, CT
Posts: 332
I have found that any dial that was without lume should also have hands without lume. If the hands have lume so should the dial...
PVR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15 October 2024, 10:31 PM   #26
Dan S
2024 Pledge Member
 
Dan S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 6,214
Quote:
Originally Posted by PVR View Post
I have found that any dial that was without lume should also have hands without lume. If the hands have lume so should the dial...
I suspect that there are valid exceptions to this rule, although perhaps not with DDs, which I'm not so familiar with.

The reverse is certainly true, however. A lumed dial would make no sense with un-lumed hands.
__________________
@oldwatchdan on IG
Dan S is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15 October 2024, 10:59 PM   #27
offrdmania
2024 ROLEX SUBMARINER 41 Pledge Member
 
offrdmania's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Real Name: Matt
Location: Wine Country, Ca
Posts: 5,966
I have seen all combinations and because of the passage of time, there could be instances of hand changes, so unless you are the original owner, who know if your watch is in its original factory configuration.
__________________
TRF Member 11738
offrdmania is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15 October 2024, 11:00 PM   #28
miamiclay
2024 Pledge Member
 
miamiclay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: 33139/95460
Posts: 1,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by PVR View Post
I have found that any dial that was without lume should also have hands without lume. If the hands have lume so should the dial...
Not always … e.g., there were plenty of no-lume stone dials issued with lumed hands. Iirc, I’ve even seen an old Rolex magazine ad showing no-lume (wood dial) DDs with lumed hands.

In any event, before 2000 I expect most ADs would’ve been delighted to put lumed hands on any brand new DD, in order to make the sale.

(This just illustrates that, for almost every “rule” regarding vintage Rolex, there are exceptions, and exceptions to those exceptions, ad infinitum!)
miamiclay is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16 October 2024, 11:37 AM   #29
crowncollection
"TRF" Member
 
crowncollection's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Real Name: David
Location: australia
Posts: 20,211
As above this is a well documented inconsistency


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
watches many
crowncollection is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18 October 2024, 03:50 AM   #30
fivedime
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Huntsville, AL
Watch: BB58 925, OP39, DD
Posts: 75
Most likely the photo was filtered/post-processed to enhance the “whiteness” of the dial…washing out the lume plots, by a seller more interested in making as “pretty picture” presentation as possible, and not reflection of actual/collectability-related condition. It will almost certainly look radically different in real life or in unfiltered, natural light photos…
fivedime is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Wrist Aficionado

Asset Appeal

WatchesOff5th

DavidSW Watches

Takuya Watches

My Watch LLC

OCWatches


*Banners Of The Month*
This space is provided to horological resources.





Copyright ©2004-2024, The Rolex Forums. All Rights Reserved.

ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX

Rolex is a registered trademark of ROLEX USA. The Rolex Forums is not affiliated with ROLEX USA in any way.