Vacheron Perceptions?

[Incroyable12]

Why do you think Vacheron as a brand has such a weak secondary market value and general enthusiasm level?

I mean this forum doesn't even have a dedicated V&C section but has one for Breitling which tells you all you need to know.

I've also noticed many vintage/grey dealers don't even mention Vacheron as a brand they carry; instead it's the usual Rolex, Patek, AP name drops along with cultish chronograph brands like Omega and Longines.

Is it because they never had a hit watch a la the Nautilus and Royal Oak?

[DoctorA]

VC is the oldest Swiss brand still in existence! Caries a lot of history, charm, craftsmanship and class!
Like everything else, supply/demand and in this case it’s more the demand piece where you don’t see many famous celebrities wearing it like AP, PP, Rolex……etc. so it’s a brand only for those who know!
Wait until the next rapper or hip hop star shows up in one or talks about one and see the demand sky rocket

To be honest, I kinda like it the way it is, to be enjoyed in silence without all of todays fake hype!!

[Incroyable12]

Well the original 222 is already quite expensive but that hasn't spread to anything else in their catalog.

I agree I like how it's under the radar and you have to be in the know to appreciate the brand. However it's still sort of strange that any watch enthusiast can rattle off the Holy Trinity and yet the brand is still off the radar for most watch people.

One reason I read is that they made very limited quantities of each model in the past and there was never any meaningful corporate attempt to capitalize or even catalog their vintage models unlike Patek.

[Andy0331]

IMO, some of it has to do with the lack of a "hit" sports model. But I also suspect a lot of it has to do with annual production volume. Rolex makes 1MM+, Patek ~60k, AP ~40k, VC ~25k; there just aren't as many out there & no one is "hyping" them, whether rappers, sports stars, celebrities, etc. (totally fine by me too).

Other brands with lower price points and huge production numbers will be far better known.

[RolexSimon]

Just try and get an Overseas in blue dial right now...........! My PP/VC dealer says he has the same number of request as he did for a Nautilus 15 years ago.

[RobHK]

Its basically the same reason nobody talks about Lange, also fantastic watches, no hype..

[PBJ1925]

Fine watches, little hype. I personally prefer it that way as it makes majority of their catalogue reasonably obtainable.

[ts3]

There may be more, but I can easily see two issues that don't help Vacheron:

1) Richemont ownership.
2) Inconsistent sports model design.

Once they dropped the 222 design they got lost in my eyes. Just look at how different the 222 and each of the three generations of the Overseas are. What have they been doing? Almost as wild as IWC with its Aquatimer and Ingenieur lines. And very different from AP, Patek, or Rolex where the Royal Oak, Nautilus, and Submariner only received minor tweaks in terms of design over a 50y time horizon.

That said, I am a big fan of Vacheron's basic dress watches.

[Nathan_]

IYKYK and that appeals to me greatly!

[Tomas Eriksson]

Originally Posted by ts3

There may be more, but I can easily see two issues that don't help Vacheron:

1) Richemont ownership.
2) Inconsistent sports model design.

Once they dropped the 222 design they got lost in my eyes. Just look at how different the 222 and each of the three generations of the Overseas are. What have they been doing? Almost as wild as IWC with its Aquatimer and Ingenieur lines. And very different from AP, Patek, or Rolex where the Royal Oak, Nautilus, and Submariner only received minor tweaks in terms of design over a 50y time horizon.

That said, I am a big fan of Vacheron's basic dress watches.

100% agree

[RobHK]

Originally Posted by ts3

There may be more, but I can easily see two issues that don't help Vacheron:

1) Richemont ownership.
2) Inconsistent sports model design.

Once they dropped the 222 design they got lost in my eyes. Just look at how different the 222 and each of the three generations of the Overseas are. What have they been doing? Almost as wild as IWC with its Aquatimer and Ingenieur lines. And very different from AP, Patek, or Rolex where the Royal Oak, Nautilus, and Submariner only received minor tweaks in terms of design over a 50y time horizon.

That said, I am a big fan of Vacheron's basic dress watches.

Agree, would probably have been "better" for VC to just keep the 222 linage to this day. Now the re-release of 222 is not going to be a re-boot of that as its so limited volumes in their historique series.

Rather maybe over time, in 10-20 years the current VCO line could be recognized since it stayed very similar at least since Gen2 VCOs.

[Incroyable12]

Originally Posted by RobHK

Its basically the same reason nobody talks about Lange, also fantastic watches, no hype..

Langes sell for much higher prices on the secondary market than Vacherons though.

Most major auctions barely have a handful of Vacherons in their catalogs and the ones that are in there barely sell for their reserve price if at all.

The lack of a sports model doesn't quite explain why their vintage watches sell for less than a quarter if not more of Patek. A Vacheron 4072 chronograph is less than a quarter of the Patek 130 despite them being basically identical.

[ILoveFerrari]

Originally Posted by Incroyable12

Langes sell for much higher prices on the secondary market than Vacherons though.

Most major auctions barely have a handful of Vacherons in their catalogs and the ones that are in there barely sell for their reserve price if at all.

The lack of a sports model doesn't quite explain why their vintage watches sell for less than a quarter if not more of Patek. A Vacheron 4072 chronograph is less than a quarter of the Patek 130 despite them being basically identical.

Why are we even taking about resale? I truly appreciate VC and Lange pieces and particularly some brands that are not so well known, except those in the know. I personally do not have Rolex except the one my father gave me or AP for the exact reasons that made them popular.

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[gliazzurri]

Originally Posted by ilovegt

Why are we even taking about resale? I truly appreciate VC and Lange pieces and particularly some brands that are not so well known, except those in the know. I personally do not have Rolex except the one my father gave me or AP for the exact reasons that made them popular.

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Agree with the last sentence and same experience for me.
Minus the hand me down :)

[Incroyable12]

Originally Posted by ilovegt

Why are we even taking about resale? I truly appreciate VC and Lange pieces and particularly some brands that are not so well known, except those in the know. I personally do not have Rolex except the one my father gave me or AP for the exact reasons that made them popular.

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Secondary market prices are a big consideration for anyone looking to collect. If for example you can't afford Patek then you look at other brands.

I'm not sure why many people are turned off by talk of resale prices when obviously pricing is a huge factor in collecting; I personally want to own some 1950s AP complicated wristwatches but can't afford them so I look at comparable things.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by ilovegt

why are we even taking about resale? I truly appreciate vc and lange pieces and particularly some brands that are not so well known, except those in the know. I personally do not have rolex except the one my father gave me or ap for the exact reasons that made them popular.

+1

[beshannon]

Originally Posted by Incroyable12

Why do you think Vacheron as a brand has such a weak secondary market value and general enthusiasm level?

I mean this forum doesn't even have a dedicated V&C section but has one for Breitling which tells you all you need to know.

I've also noticed many vintage/grey dealers don't even mention Vacheron as a brand they carry; instead it's the usual Rolex, Patek, AP name drops along with cultish chronograph brands like Omega and Longines.

Is it because they never had a hit watch a la the Nautilus and Royal Oak?

Good

I like it this way, let the people looking for hype go elsewhere.

[bwdellorf76]

No real marketing either. Also, it gets the bad rap of not being an “independent” brand. Still make high quality stuff.

[Incroyable12]

What's curious is that both the vintage and pre-owned market doesn't seem to appreciate them for the kind of quality they offer. At that level of watchmaking there are very few brands you can buy so I find it interesting not that many people seem enthusiastic about VC and obviously this is reflected in secondary pricing.

The watch collecting world is essentially very small since there are only so many brands and models you can collect. People in the trade have been talking about Vacheron having a renaissance for years if not more than a decade now and it still hasn't happened.

[Incroyable12]

Originally Posted by bwdellorf76

No real marketing either. Also, it gets the bad rap of not being an “independent” brand. Still make high quality stuff.

I guess for the modern stuff it has kind of a corporate sellout vibe similar to Breguet but then again Lange is also owned by Richemont.

[Incroyable12]

The 222 is a nice design but it's also very dated. Its appeal is that it's a very '70s looking watch so essentially a niche product.

It would be like if Rolex reintroduced the King Midas or Patek the Beta 21. A very small segment of the watch world will go crazy over it but it wouldn't be a big seller like the Nautilus or Royal Oak.

[Grand Style]

I like the new Overseas design more than the previous:
https://monochrome-watches.com/histo...as-1970s-icon/

[HMHM]

The VCO is a real paradox for me for some reason. It looks amazing in pictures but in real life it’s very average. Non-hacking seconds as well and out of the holy trinity (PP, AP and VC), it’s the only one that looks better on a rubber than on the bracelet. Must say that my current ranking for metal bracelet sport watches are Nautilus, RO, Odysseus then the VCO.

[GB-man]

It’s a pro not a con as far as I’m concerned.

[Incroyable12]

The Overseas is a bit over designed in my opinion and the constant referencing of the Maltese Cross as a design element is a bit cheesy.

Contrast this with the Nautilus and Royal Oak which are much purer forms and arguably much superior designs.

Where Vacheron really shined in design were the 1940s watches with the extravagant lugs.

[raclaims]

I'm a big fan of Vacheron and have collected quite a few in the past 7 years...honestly for me it was more of a factor of not really knowing the brand early on...they don't hype the way other brands do and they actually prefer to curate their clientele.

They only make 20k pieces a year so you won't see one on every corner like a rolex.

End of the day, VC is a top tier brand, with tremendous history and a fabulous catalog from sport models to one off custom pieces you can design from the ground up.

I truly believe it's more of lack of general public knowledge pre the watch craze we are in now that brought many new eyeballs to VC that I'm sure will stick around for the long haul.

[Goupax]

I really like their Traditionelle line, especially the model with guilloche white dial that is boutique exclusive unfortunately. I wonder if the wait lists for this watch are very long but it is at least on the same level as a Calatrava imo, with more intricate movement finish. Patek has been litterally cutting corners lately with their movement design, no more sharp interior angles, everything is rounded off to make the bevelling finish easier to achieve with machines.

[pamy104]

As a VC overseas owner, I was quite disappointed recently to find out they do not make their cases nor their bracelets. Pretty much just movement and. Buying and assembling everything.

Drop my view of the brand.

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[pamy104]

For reference.

https://api.watchville.co/v2/posts/72783/click

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[Gebbeth]

I want to preface this by saying I like how VC is under the radar. The Rolex/Patek/AP craze is not "normal", and the hype inflates the price of those maker's watches beyond what is rational. Don't need it.

That being said:

(1) VC does have its hype model, which is the Overseas. Fantastic watch that has unfortunately become unobtainable in certain models except for paying an exorbitant price over retail.

(2) I honestly don't think VC has as vast a lineup of watches as the other trinity brands plus Rolex. Rolex...well, there are tons of models that are highly desirable. Patek has the Nautilus, Aquanaut, the 5905s, 5236, 5205s. AP is an outlier here in that it only has the RO, but there are so many iterations of the RO including the Offshore series that there seems to be more meat there. The VC has the Overseas, but I would argue that beyond that, the rest of the line up does not standout. The Traditionelle is maybe one, but I don't see much beyond that.

(3) it's a bit of a stretch, but VC is the only one of the holy trinity that is not independent. They are part of the Richemont Group, and I think that was borne of some desperation on VC's part during the dark days. As such, I think there is a perception that it's not truly a holy trinity brand in the true sense of the word, but more a high-luxury offshoot of a huge commercial company. The Fiftysix using a shared movement only adds to this perception. I think Breguet suffers somewhat from this issue.

I'm still dying for an Overseas, and I'd kill for an Everest limited edition, but I'm not paying above retail for a blue dial OS.